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Old September 21st, 2017, 06:59 PM   #19341
rocanon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vulcan's Finest View Post
Suddenly that future-proofing 400 km/h (248mph) infrastructure capability doesn't seem such a huge leap of faith. Especially in a world where Bugatti already 'limit' the road legal version of their Chiron model to 261mph! The train at least will be an order of magnitude safer at such high speeds.
In 200 mph collisions, the survivability for drivers in HS2, or Bugatti, would be minimal.
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Old September 21st, 2017, 07:29 PM   #19342
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How many trains in Europe have crashed on a high speed line? I can only think of a Eurostar train which derailed at 300km/h in Northern France and yet stayed upright. I think it's the Japanese who came up with the philosophy of focusing on avoiding crashes ahead of trying to make them stand up to one. I don't think it's too much of a stretch that such an excellent safety record can stand up to speed increases.
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Old September 21st, 2017, 09:58 PM   #19343
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salif View Post
How many trains in Europe have crashed on a high speed line? I can only think of a Eurostar train which derailed at 300km/h in Northern France and yet stayed upright. I think it's the Japanese who came up with the philosophy of focusing on avoiding crashes ahead of trying to make them stand up to one. I don't think it's too much of a stretch that such an excellent safety record can stand up to speed increases.
Rocanon's an anti who is trolling as usual. And Merswy agrees with him as usual. Its yet another manifestation of anti-Manchesterism from Liverpool forumers.
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Old September 22nd, 2017, 12:43 AM   #19344
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Originally Posted by rocanon View Post
In 200 mph collisions, the survivability for drivers in HS2, or Bugatti, would be minimal.
Care to dredge that miserable anti public transport blogsite of yours to see if the stats for dead supercar drivers are available? I strongly suspect that the drivers of high-speed trains tend to live a lot longer on average.

Of course this is also a good opportunity to point out that all forms of railway in the UK are an order of magnitude safer than any type of road transport. Those who continually snipe and whinge about rail spending are clearly ignorant of that basic fact.

Quote:
In reported UK road traffic accidents in 2015:
road deaths decreased by 2% compared with 2014, falling to 1,732.
the number of people seriously injured decreased by 3% to 22,137.
there were a total of 186,209 casualties of all severities.
https://www.gov.uk/government/statis...n-results-2015
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Old September 22nd, 2017, 01:02 AM   #19345
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'anti-Manchesterism'? That's a strange way to portray opposition to one city being unduly privileged by a remote and foolish government, regardless of the consequences for the wider region. I am not 'against' Manchester if I simply oppose it being artificially engorged by prejudiced decision makers. Manchester is what it is.
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Old September 22nd, 2017, 02:46 AM   #19346
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Boohooohooooooooo!
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Old September 22nd, 2017, 03:49 AM   #19347
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merswy View Post
'anti-Manchesterism'? That's a strange way to portray opposition to one city being unduly privileged by a remote and foolish government, regardless of the consequences for the wider region. I am not 'against' Manchester if I simply oppose it being artificially engorged by prejudiced decision makers. Manchester is what it is.
I take it then you were unaware that the person who's post you rushed to like is the total opposite of friendly towards Liverpool? Or do you not have any standards?

Rocanon is (apparently) the writer of the ultra-cynical 'Beleben blog'. A peculiar (foreigner hating) libertarian blogger who absolutely loathes the thought of spending a single penny improving the public transport infrastructure serving Liverpool. You won't find anything positive being said about your city or representatives in that blog. A few examples of the pearls of wisdom he has shared with us all....

Rubbishing the HSRLL report:

Quote:
"Although it is a piece of advocacy (produced by Steer Davies Gleave for the City Region), it does not make a very good case for building a dedicated high line into Liverpool. Consider, for example, the GVA figures presented for building, and not building, captive track.

The hugely expensive HS2 dedicated tunnel into Manchester (which is part of the government’s preferred scheme), would only carry 3 London trains each hour. Its value for money looks just as questionable as the Liverpool captive spur."
Rubbishing 20MM's claims....

Quote:
"According to the 20 Miles More campaign, a dedicated HS2 link to Liverpool would cost between £1.5 and £1.9 billion; but they have not provided a breakdown of the figures.

If Merseyside intercity trains were moved onto a dedicated HS2 route into Liverpool, it is difficult to see..... how 400-metre trains, presumably stopping only at Bickenhill, could be filled.

In any event, the released capacity from moving just one train each hour off the Liverpool to Crewe line, is not going to be worth anything like £1,500 million".
Beleben wants the rail links to Manchester to remain with steam-age timings....

Quote:
"Current fast trains between Manchester and Liverpool complete the journey in around 32 minutes, and the cost of a new line to cut that “by 50%” would be enormous. Councillor Robinson’s “aim” looks like a vanity project in the same vein as the proposed Manchester to Leeds ‘HS3’."
Beleben really, really doesn't think that Liverpool is worthy of a HSR link to anywhere, ever! In fact he clearly thinks Scousers are crazy! Not a very nice man is he?

Quote:
"Linking Liverpool are continuing to claim there are tens of thousands of people who can’t be bothered to visit the city now, but who would visit if the (London) journey time was all of 24 minutes shorter. Altogether, these ‘easily distracted’ visitors would make three quarters of a million trips to Liverpool.

So, the usual crazy nonsense. In the view of the Beleben blog, the capital cost of extending HS2 into Liverpool Lime Street would be around £4,000 million. If the Liverpool HS2 spur was also used to run ‘HS3’ trains to Manchester, there would be further costs on top".
There is plenty more of this kind of reactionary nonsense to be found in that blog.
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Old September 22nd, 2017, 07:51 AM   #19348
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vulcan's Finest View Post
I take it then you were unaware that the person who's post you rushed to like is the total opposite of friendly towards Liverpool? Or do you not have any standards?

Rocanon is (apparently) the writer of the ultra-cynical 'Beleben blog'. A peculiar (foreigner hating) libertarian blogger who absolutely loathes the thought of spending a single penny improving the public transport infrastructure serving Liverpool. You won't find anything positive being said about your city or representatives in that blog. A few examples of the pearls of wisdom he has shared with us all....

Rubbishing the HSRLL report:



Rubbishing 20MM's claims....



Beleben wants the rail links to Manchester to remain with steam-age timings....



Beleben really, really doesn't think that Liverpool is worthy of a HSR link to anywhere, ever! In fact he clearly thinks Scousers are crazy! Not a very nice man is he?



There is plenty more of this kind of reactionary nonsense to be found in that blog.
If a person's anti-Manchester, that seems to be good enough for some.
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Old September 22nd, 2017, 02:32 PM   #19349
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salif View Post
How many trains in Europe have crashed on a high speed line? I can only think of a Eurostar train which derailed at 300km/h in Northern France and yet stayed upright. I think it's the Japanese who came up with the philosophy of focusing on avoiding crashes ahead of trying to make them stand up to one. I don't think it's too much of a stretch that such an excellent safety record can stand up to speed increases.
There was this horrific high speed derailment in Spain in 2013 which killed 78

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Old September 22nd, 2017, 02:34 PM   #19350
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And that train crash in Germany in the 90s
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Old September 22nd, 2017, 02:50 PM   #19351
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Were those actually on high speed lines though? That Spanish train was on a tight curve on a low speed section of track. And that Germany crash was on a classic line if I remember correctly.

Last edited by Salif; September 22nd, 2017 at 02:57 PM.
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Old September 22nd, 2017, 03:37 PM   #19352
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The German one was a fault with the train though, so quite independent of the line it was on (an "upgraded" line with 125-140mph limits). But a train designed back in the 80s, with the retro-fitted wheels' design flaw untested.
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Old September 22nd, 2017, 04:08 PM   #19353
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125mph, not 140mph.
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Old September 22nd, 2017, 04:46 PM   #19354
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamandell (d69) View Post
There was this horrific high speed derailment in Spain in 2013 which killed 78

That happened on a 60 mph section of classic line. There have been no fatalities on the French TGV system in the 34 years it has been open. It isn't as if there have never been any fatalities on our classic lines. The Great Western near Heathrow springs to mind, so does Hatfield and Colwich, and most accidents are caused by carelessness - either driver error, poor trackwork or poor wiring of signals.
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Old September 22nd, 2017, 07:05 PM   #19355
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merswy View Post
'anti-Manchesterism'? That's a strange way to portray opposition to one city being unduly privileged by a remote and foolish government, regardless of the consequences for the wider region. I am not 'against' Manchester if I simply oppose it being artificially engorged by prejudiced decision makers. Manchester is what it is.
For F*CK sake give it a rest. We all know how you feel. The world does NOT resolve around liverpool.
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Old September 23rd, 2017, 12:05 AM   #19356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salif View Post
Were those actually on high speed lines though? That Spanish train was on a tight curve on a low speed section of track. And that Germany crash was on a classic line if I remember correctly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sesquip View Post
The German one was a fault with the train though, so quite independent of the line it was on (an "upgraded" line with 125-140mph limits). But a train designed back in the 80s, with the retro-fitted wheels' design flaw untested.
Was the collision of Chinese high speed trains on a a classic line or PDL? I think it was due to suspension of the in-cab signaling and subsequent human error.
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Old September 23rd, 2017, 04:06 AM   #19357
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Both the Spanish and German crashes took place on classic lines.

The German ICE at Eschede suffered a broken wheel disk which saw a carriage derailed and thrown sideways as it went over points at about 120mph - unfortunately it hit the supports of a road overbridge - which then collapsed on top of the moving train. This is what caused so many fatalities.

The Spanish crash at Santiago de Compostela was a result of disorientation by the driver who thought he was still running on the high-speed line, so he was still doing 95mph at the start of a 36mph limited curve. However it was confirmed that on the classic line there was no oversight of speed restrictions by any kind of automation, which seems incredible in this day and age.

I'm confident in saying that no passenger has died on a modern high-speed railway in Europe as a result of an accident.
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Old September 23rd, 2017, 04:10 AM   #19358
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I have copied this from the Liverpool forum as it does seem to be a major development (for both HS2 and NPR).

Quote:
Originally Posted by aeolian View Post
I'd be interested to see this TfN report

Transport for the North endorses City Region’s case for High-Speed connectivity
http://liverpoolcityregion-ca.gov.uk...d-connectivity
Certainly a very positive development, as you say the TFN report would make interesting reading.

Quote:
Subject to the Secretary of State’s acceptance of these proposals, the Department would then instruct HS2 Ltd to conduct design work and environmental assessment on the provisions, enabling their possible inclusion in the Phase 2b Hybrid Bill at deposit stage in 2019.
Does this I wonder mean provisions just for the necessary junctions? It is well known that TFN is currently under a lot of pressure to give HS2 Ltd details of exactly where it wants it's junctions to connect to the HS2 routes. The work was supposed to have been completed this summer.

There is already a precedent for HS2 to undertake design work for NPR route alignments, so that comes as no surprise. I would however be rather surprised if a new route into Liverpool were added to the phase 2b hybrid bill legislation. Again, the M18 route and Sheffield spur has set a precedent - it took one year from the initial announcement until it was approved by government, with a short consultation period. So maybe it could be done - we shall see. I still expect that NPR will get it's own hybrid bill.

The politically fixed budget for HS2 (£55.7 bn in 2015 prices) has always been the major sticking point when it came to adding extra infrastructure to the proposed routes. However there have been recent cost developments which may give Grayling some real leeway.

1) The agreed M18 route and Sheffield spur saves almost £900 million compared to the Meadowhall route.
2) The design and build contacts for phase 1 earthworks came in well under the assumed higher end cost estimation (actual £6.61 bn). That gives the overall budget a potential £2 bn boost.
3) The short Phase 2a extension to Crewe through largely rural countryside was assumed at £3.5bn, with a further £1bn contingency added on top. The pleasing results of the phase 1 earthworks contracts however may have given the Government confidence that most or all of that £1 billion contingency is not actually going to be needed.

Added to this, if Liverpool services are speeded up then the trainfleet can be reduced by one or two units. This could reduce the rolling stock budget by either £40 or £80 million.

Bearing in mind the above recent developments, it could be argued that the HS2 budget is now well inside the agreed funding envelope and that a new route into Liverpool is affordable - within the HS2 funding envelope. If not it could just be funded from central government as part of NPR, but that I suspect would preclude it being included in the HS2 hybrid bill.
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Old September 23rd, 2017, 11:26 AM   #19359
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vulcan's Finest View Post
Both the Spanish and German crashes took place on classic lines.

The German ICE at Eschede suffered a broken wheel disk which saw a carriage derailed and thrown sideways as it went over points at about 120mph - unfortunately it hit the supports of a road overbridge - which then collapsed on top of the moving train. This is what caused so many fatalities.

The Spanish crash at Santiago de Compostela was a result of disorientation by the driver who thought he was still running on the high-speed line, so he was still doing 95mph at the start of a 36mph limited curve. However it was confirmed that on the classic line there was no oversight of speed restrictions by any kind of automation, which seems incredible in this day and age.

I'm confident in saying that no passenger has died on a modern high-speed railway in Europe as a result of an accident.
Sorry to have to correct you, but you have a few facts wrong.

The accident in Spain did actually happen on a dedicated high speed line, since the high speed and classic lines merge AFTER that curve where the train derailed. It is the end of the line though, thats true.

The curve is limited to 80kph, not 60, and the train hit that curve with 179kph, not with 153.

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Old September 23rd, 2017, 12:33 PM   #19360
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The point still stands though, at least the one I was getting at - there has been no fatality on a dedicated high speed line in Europe at high speed as a result of a crash. This was in response to the poster at the top of this page saying in a 200 mph collision, the driver doesn't survive. But there have been no 200 mph collisions in Europe.
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