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Old September 30th, 2004, 08:09 AM   #1
AcesHigh
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Itaipú Dam vs Three Gorges Dam!!

I heard lots of people saying that Three Gorges Dam would be much bigger and such than Itaipú. But apparently, that does not procede.

The potence of TGD is 18.2 Megawatts. Itaipú is right now 12,5 Megawatts, but will be 16 Megawatts when the last two generators get installed.

But the power production of Itaipú is much larger. 93,4 billion kWh (kiloWatts/hour) from Itaipú vs 84,68 billion kWh from TGD.

Itaipú has only 18 generators, each one with 700 MW, while TGD has 26 generators, each one 680 MW. But the river Paraná is much more estable than the Yang-Tse, and also the waters of the river are regulated by more than a dozen other powerplants up the river.

Turbines
IT---18 (700MW)
TGD--26 (680MW)

Installed Power
IT---12.600 MW
TGD--18.200 MW

Anual Production
IT ---93,4 bilhões kWh/year
TGD--84,68 bilhões kWh/year


Utilized Concreteo
IT ---12,57 million m³
TGD --27,94 million m³


Height
IT---196 meters
TGD --181 meters


Lenght of the barrage
IT --7.700 meters (concrete and earth)
TGD --2.309 meters (only concrete)


Maximum Water Volume Displacement Capacity
IT --62.200 m³/s
TGD --102.500 m³/s

Escavations
IT--63,85 milhões m³
TGD --113 milhões m³

LAKE

Extension
IT ---170 km
TGD --600 km

Area
IT--1.350 km²
TGD-1.084 km²


Number of People relocated
IT--40 thousand
TGD --1,1 million













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Old September 30th, 2004, 10:23 AM   #2
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It's a shame how much land had to be flooded to serve both massive projects, and the destruction to both villages and natural wildlife, but I guess we need that power. Three Gorges looks cool.
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Old September 30th, 2004, 01:10 PM   #3
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Those are fucking gigantic!!!
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Old September 30th, 2004, 05:25 PM   #4
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lol...why flight for a bigger dam? Big dam = big destruction, I don't understand why they don't build couple smalll dam...so people still can keep the house no need force to move.
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Old September 30th, 2004, 07:14 PM   #5
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lol, I dont know what you people have against those dams. Look... Brasil has hundreds of smaller dams, but a big one as Itaipu is necessary to supply our needs.

More: ive read already that the number of smaller dams necessary to produce the energy of one big cause more enviromental problems and force more people to move than one big dam.

And also... better to use hidroeletric power than nuclear, or coal, or anything like that. Do you know the quantity of nuclear waste american powerplants generate every year?? Much of that is shipped to poor countries, which then get some small money but huge enviromental problems. Some countries throw the nuclear waste at sea. Really, dams can make people relocate and alter a bit a rivers ecosystem... but they are much more environmental friendly than any other energy generation system! (btw, coal is not a self-renewal resource as water, and produces lots of pollution... and ask Ukranians how many of them needed to be re-located when Chernobyl went KABOOM!
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Old October 1st, 2004, 08:51 PM   #6
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these are both an enormous achievement in construction and engeneering
much more interesting than skyscrapers !
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Old October 1st, 2004, 09:58 PM   #7
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Damn, that's one heck of a dam!

Seriously, you bring up a good point. Everyone buys into TGD being te biggest and greatest without questioning it. I personally had no idea Itaipu was that massive.

Thanks for all the nice pics too. There's too much text in this forum, it needs to be broken up more.
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Old October 1st, 2004, 11:24 PM   #8
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I thought some chinese guy would come here and say TGD was the biggest and post pictures of it!!

Of course, I am not looking forward to the discussion, since Itaipu already won but I really look forward for the pictures!
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Old October 2nd, 2004, 06:29 AM   #9
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China needs much more dams and water power plants, just for the sake of ENVIRONMENT. Because China currently more than 80% of electricity comes from coal-burning power plant, which cause heavy pollution, both air and water and earth, just look most of the Chinese citiy pictures. Water power is much cleaner, much more environment friendly.

China has worlds largest water power potential, but only untilize about 10%, the developed nations are much higher, many are close to 100%, even Canada is 80% more. Do the developed nations have heavier pollution than China, no, their air is much cleaner, just because they use much cleaner electricity from water power, instead of coal-burning.

For 3-gorges, there is another big dam only 38km downstream, called Gezhouba dam, The dam is 70meters high. it has another 2.7 MW power intalled and can produce 15.7 billion KWh electricity. So TGD+GD has 20 MW installed power and over 100 billon KWh electricity produced annually. This 2 dams are so closed, actually they are one giant project. GD was built earlier.

On the upstream, at least a dozen more giant dams are u/c. There 4 dams are u/c and planed in one segment, these 4 dams are equal to 2 TG dams in the installed power, and will produce much more electricity than 2 TG dams can do.

I will fully support building dams and hydro-power, stop builting any coal-burning power plants, too much pollution and other problems already.
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Old October 2nd, 2004, 06:44 AM   #10
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I agree, let these dams be built. Most of us aren't gonna be alive in the next 400 years so what does it matter? We need the dams now.
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Old October 2nd, 2004, 06:52 AM   #11
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BTW, Yangtse river is a major water transport river in the world, so in TGD (same as GT dam), there are many big 5-level waterlocks for passing ships. each waterlock can pass 10,000-ton ships as wide as 34 meters, and there are 2 these waterlocks in the tandem should to should, and additional another world biggest vertical ship passing equipment(donnot know the english words). These ship passing facilities definitly will lose a lot power potential. And make the project much larger and much more challenging, like building another canal for 170 meters high. I don't think IT dam has any ship passing facilities.

water locks















waterlocks u/c

Last edited by snake; October 2nd, 2004 at 06:57 AM.
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Old October 2nd, 2004, 01:39 PM   #12
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hehehehe, hey Snake, in Itaipú website it says TGD will only produce 84,68 billion kWh per year

Well, even if it produces 100 kWh per year, it will be about the same as Itaipú.

The only thing as powerful and clean as hidro would be nuclear FUSION. We are still some decades from seeing reliable, cheap fusion reaction.
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Old October 6th, 2004, 11:11 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcesHigh
hehehehe, hey Snake, in Itaipú website it says TGD will only produce 84,68 billion kWh per year

Well, even if it produces 100 kWh per year, it will be about the same as Itaipú.

The only thing as powerful and clean as hidro would be nuclear FUSION. We are still some decades from seeing reliable, cheap fusion reaction.

The overall TGD is much bigger than Itaipu when finished. Just look at some websites they'll tell you detail info about the TGD, even Discovery Channel, and TLC had shows about TGD and they all said it'll be the "Biggest dam in the world" but in terms of generating electricty dunno yet.
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Old October 9th, 2004, 11:22 AM   #14
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how do you define the size of a dam?

how much electricity it produces?
how much water it holds back?
the height , length , thickness?
how much concrete was poured and how much earth had to be moved?
the size of the ship locks?

I guess it's not so "black and white" as the old saying goes. However I still believe the 3 Gorges dam is bigger then Itaipu.
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Old October 9th, 2004, 02:12 PM   #15
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Odegaard: lol, I think in the end the most important is the energy it produces! Whats the use of having a 100km long and 1 km tall dam if it only produces 1 Gigawatt??
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Old October 15th, 2004, 05:38 PM   #16
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I also think the main measure should be the amount of power produced.

While dams are great for local air quality, they are NOT emmissions free. Dams in rainforests produce more greenhouse gas emmissions that a coal power plant of equal size. It has been estimated that Dams worldwide contribute 7% of the GHG.
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Old October 15th, 2004, 05:49 PM   #17
AcesHigh
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explain it better Glickel.

How can a thing that is not much different than a lake with a waterfall produce greenhouse gas emissions?
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Old October 15th, 2004, 10:23 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcesHigh
explain it better Glickel.

How can a thing that is not much different than a lake with a waterfall produce greenhouse gas emissions?

A dam produced lake floods a vast area with vegetation or biomass. That biomass then decomposes in an anoxic (lack of oxygen) environment which produces methane (think wetlands) a stronger greenhouse gas (GHG) than carbon dioxide, as well as decomposing to produce regular old carbon dioxide. Not only does the biomass decomposition at carbon, but the presence of lake prevents future carbon sequestration from the flooded land.

Search google for "emission dam" for further explanations

Dams in rainforests produce even more GHG, because of the high density of biomass. While dams may not be significantly different than urban sprawl, just think how completely a lake covers an area vs. development.


Second unrelated point: Recently, all major dam projects are done in developing countries. Developed nations have no plans to build major dams, because it would never survive public scrutiny (Partly due to the fact that all of the ideal spots are already taken). While I am not positive, I believe that the World Bank has is no longer funding large dam projects, because of their environmental impact, displacement of people and a number of development issues, such as large centralized projects only help the big companies, not development of poor areas.
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Old October 15th, 2004, 11:04 PM   #19
AcesHigh
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So whats the solution in your opinion Glickel? Nuclear Power? Most developing countries would be bombarded to ashes by US if they try to develop anything related to nuclear...

Gas and coal powerplants depend of natural resources few countries have in abundance.

Eolic and Sun power are too expensive for developing countries.
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Old October 16th, 2004, 11:27 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glickel
Recently, all major dam projects are done in developing countries. Developed nations have no plans to build major dams, because it would never survive public scrutiny (Partly due to the fact that all of the ideal spots are already taken).
Developed nations are not building large dams now (actualy they are still building) only because they've already built dams on most of their places that suit for dams. All developed nations have utilised their river potential over 80%, including vast nations like Canada and US. And developed nations are still buiding dams, large and small. They are not building that much as they used to be, and again only because have very few places worthy to build dams.
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