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Old Today, 06:57 AM   #35781
MkeMillennial
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Originally Posted by GarfieldPark View Post
The population is what it is. Its not a trick - it was just a smart way to grow the tax base and help strengthen the city back in the 70's, 80's and 90's when it was growing very healthily. It continues to grow at a strong pace now through the early 2000's. The MSA population is what matters when looking at a region's population and growth rate. The Indy MSA has been growing at about 15% per decade on average over the last 5 or 6 decades. This translates to between about 160,000 - 220,000 people per decade. Since 1990, it has grown from about 1,294,000 to about 2,010,000 in 2016 - growth of over 700,000 in 26 years.

The definition of attractiveness of a region is how well it attracts people to want to live there. Parks, business, livability, restaurants, jobs, cost of living, weather, nearby attractions, etc, etc all factor into this. Indy does pretty well at attracting people. Milwaukee - not so much. The population of the Milwaukee region has barely budged for quite a while. The MSA population for Milwaukee was 1,432,000 in 1990. In 2016, the US Census estimate for the Milwaukee MSA was about 1,572,000. Growth of about 140,000 people in 26 years. The Indy region has grown by 5 times as many people as the Milwaukee region over those years. If Milwaukee was such a great place, wouldn't a lot more people want to live there?

Yes, Milwaukee is more dense than a lot of cities. Is that necessarily a good thing for helping a region grow though? It doesn't seem like it. Will the Milwaukee region start to grow? I don't know. It seems like there has been a lot of development happening over the past few years - but despite lots of new apartments downtown, the overall population for the region has barely budged. A lot of people on the Milwaukee threads seem to just drool and drool over their own headlines and local hype. The reality is that the good stuff happening in Milwaukee is happening all over the country. Perhaps being hidden north of Chicago hurts Milwaukee's ability to see what is happening around the rest of the country. Lots of great things are happening in Indy as well - and the term "lackluster" to describe the city just shows that you probably aren't aware of all of the great things happening in the Indianapolis region.
Ouch, GarfieldPark... that’s a harsh assessment of a city you admitted you haven’t been to since 2000. One point to note... our MSA is only four counties while Indy’s is 11. If you look at the CSA’s, Indy’s is 2.3 million while Milwaukee’s is a little over 2 million. If you include Kenosha County, which officially is a part of Chicagoland but many people consider it to be a part of Metro Milwaukee, we’re at 2.2 million. When you dig deeper, the gap isn’t as wide as you make them out to be.

Also, last time I checked, Indy doesn’t have proposals for any new major high rises. We have multiple apartment towers and office buildings ready to go up. You are correct that downtown development booms are happening across the country, but I think ours is punching above its weight class in terms of new downtown development.
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Old Today, 08:19 AM   #35782
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I’m with SteelyDan on this one: density is a far more important metric than overall size. Stockholm, Sweden is a relatively small city but has very nice density which translates into walkable, liveable, enjoyable and memorable neighbourhoods. Low density places struggle at providing a sense of “place”. This is the failure of cities like Phoenix and Houston and even Indianapolis. At the end of the day, the overall size of the city is nowhere near as important as the density of neighbourhoods within.

I’d rather live in a Stockholm than a Houston and I would rather live in a Milwaukee than an Indianapolis.

Besides, beer > racecars
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Old Today, 08:36 AM   #35783
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MKEMillenial : Yeah, sorry. I guess I may have been overly focused on responding to the term "lackluster" in the one person's description of Indianapolis in the thread and had to question how such a dull place could be growing at all. Just seemed peculiar - so thought I'd check the numbers.

Current numbers are always interesting - but obviously, growth rates are pretty important too. Just ask Buffalo and Charlotte.

I am looking forward to getting up to Milwaukee and don't doubt at all that I'll like it and will have a fun, interesting time (unless the weather is particularly crappy that day which is probably possible in early November). I like classic, urban cities with great neighborhoods. Bringing in new population is always good though, because otherwise, some of these places can kind of get stuck in a rut. I doubt that is the problem in Milwaukee with all of the things happening downtown - but it does make you wonder if/when the numbers will start to go up a bit more quickly.
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Old Today, 02:38 PM   #35784
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I like classic, urban cities with great neighborhoods. Bringing in new population is always good though, because otherwise, some of these places can kind of get stuck in a rut. I doubt that is the problem in Milwaukee with all of the things happening downtown - but it does make you wonder if/when the numbers will start to go up a bit more quickly.

We definitely have to stem the net losses that are still occurring in poorer north side and south side neighborhoods before any significant population growth can occur overall.
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Old Today, 03:24 PM   #35785
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Just not in the same league. If you moved the towers on MKE's East Side into the CBD, DT MKE would further crush Indy. It takes 11 counties in Indiana to get to a 2MM pop. Imagine if we took 11 Counties in SE Wisconsin.

Unlike Garfield, I've been to Indy numerous times since 2000 and I'm not impressed. As I've said before, I like in Chicagoland so I don't have a horse in the race but to compare the two is nonsense.
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Old Today, 04:44 PM   #35786
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Apparently Milwaukee's media market is about 2.2 million. There are no population numbers (that I can find) but if you add up all of the population of the counties listed that's what you get. It would be great if we could add another .3 million over the next few decades (which doesn't seem to hard given foxconn, and friends), with the hope our economy can grow at a steady pace after that, and maybe that would be enough to pull some of those media market counties into our metro. The more I think about it, the more I would prefer that milwaukee just had a decent growth, and increase in standard of living. Enough to keep us competitive with other cities, and keep our sports teams. I don't really want to be in a boom city, and deal with those stresses. Milwaukee is supposed to be laid back.
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Old Today, 05:02 PM   #35787
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C’mon folks please let’s not make this place a pissing match between Milwaukee and Indianapolis.

That doesn’t mean we can’t do comparisons between places, but please try to resist the aspect of human nature to boost what you like by putting others down. It’s just not very admirable and it doesn’t reflect well on the “side” of people who do it. This sort of stuff happens a lot on some message boards I frequent (or used to frequent) and they are pointless, boring and childish fights. The only thing pissing matches like this convince people of that a lot of jerks support X.

Milwaukee and Indy are definitely peers in some ways but in other ways they are a lot different than you might expect. Those differences can be interesting. Maybe they support a point you’remaking.B ut there’s a big difference between “Indy is more X because…” and “Indy sucks because...” It’s fine to be a booster and dwell on the positives, but it’s not a zero-sum game. Milwaukee can have a lot going for it without Indy needing to be crap and vice versa.

Please, please, please don’t let this board devolve into pointless pissing matches….
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Old Today, 05:09 PM   #35788
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I just got back from Portland (literally this morning) and have a few thoughts. Portland is an incredible city that is doing a lot of things right (including their amazing airport which is rightly ranked the best the in the country). Portland is beautiful, and they have made really great investments in mass transit. The "bad neighborhoods" are fairly middle class by Milwaukee (or Chicago) standards and there is a really encouraging dedication to preserving their architecture heritage. The food scene is unrivaled for their comparative size (or lack), and the retail scene is booming. Tourism continues to grow as Portland's international reputation grows. The energy is palpable there, and most neighborhoods are full of people on the sidewalks. Even the most boring of neighborhoods had more pedestrian activity than anywhere aside from Brady Street or the Third Ward. Beyond Portland, there is a LOT to see within 2-3 hours for interesting day trips.

However, there are some MASSIVE downsides to such propulsive growth. Portland is increasingly an expensive place to live and wage growth has not kept pace. What's happened is a big housing affordability crisis that has pushed a lot of those who were on the cusp of homelessness into tent cities. Even downtown, there are camps of people in tents in parks or sleeping bags on the streets. A lot of these folks looked like they were on drugs, but a fair amount (I'm told) actually hold down jobs but can't afford legal housing. Traffic is often horrendous, made worse by the hilly nature of the city and the frequent crossings over rivers. Portland is awash in transplants and that has left natives (or long-time residents) deeply resentful producing a kind of cultural divide.

Is there much Milwaukee can learn from Portland? Absolutely, but there are upsides to slow and managed growth. Personally, I think Pittsburgh provides a wonderful template on how to raise standards of living even as population growth remains stagnant or slow growing.
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Old Today, 05:17 PM   #35789
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Garfield Park, you're right. Regardless of how you want to split it, Indy is growing faster than Milwaukee. That includes both core and exurban counties. It's also nearly universal growth where the Milwaukee metro has plenty of communities still losing population. Very different cities though, considering Indy more closely mirrors Sub-Belt communities in terms of growth patterns AND not underestimating the impact of being the state capital. Indy is doing an awful lot right and the monuments give the downtown area (at least) a really interesting vibe and aesthetic unlike anywhere else in the Midwest. Regardless of whether or not GFP has been to Milwaukee recently, I would expect him to defend his city.

The point is, we can throw around good and bad adjectives for both - saying Indy is this or that doesn't mean anything for Milwaukee. All Milwaukee can do is look at what works and what doesn't and hopefully amend the good aspects to our city.
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Old Today, 05:27 PM   #35790
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OKAY! So, I hear too often from Milwaukee residents and others about how Milwaukee's skyline is not as impressive as it should be for a city of its size and that it needs taller buildings.

I went to UWM in the 80's and moved to the Phoenix area in 1989. Even though this city has more than doubled in my years here, our tallest is still a paltry 481'. Part of this is due to downtown's proximity to Sky Harbor airport.

I am posting some clips I put together comparing our 7 tallest (exist and under construction) as compared to Phoenix, San Diego, Portland, and Baltimore. I chose Phoenix and San Diego because I'm familiar with them, I chose Portland because it gets lots of talk, and Baltimore I chose at random for a comparable east coast city. I chose the seven tallest because that's all that would fit side by side on my monitor.

My point: Milwaukee's buildings are not inferior in height to many city's. The perception I believe lies in how Milwaukee's buildings are spread out and also the terrain. From many vantage points the downtown is sunk down to a much lower elevation so you just don't see it. From the lake it looks great.

So, buck up! I'm still hoping for something taller here in Phoenix. Hopefully one can be built in the northern downtown area where it won't interfere with FAA regs. BTW, I believe these restrictions also affect San Diego. Still, San Diego is awesome.
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Old Today, 05:29 PM   #35791
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Oops, forgot to mention these screen shots were taken off Skyscraperpage. Hope that is okay to do. Great site.
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Old Today, 05:48 PM   #35792
Milman13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKE-MSP-CHI View Post
I just got back from Portland (literally this morning) and have a few thoughts. Portland is an incredible city that is doing a lot of things right (including their amazing airport which is rightly ranked the best the in the country). Portland is beautiful, and they have made really great investments in mass transit. The "bad neighborhoods" are fairly middle class by Milwaukee (or Chicago) standards and there is a really encouraging dedication to preserving their architecture heritage. The food scene is unrivaled for their comparative size (or lack), and the retail scene is booming. Tourism continues to grow as Portland's international reputation grows. The energy is palpable there, and most neighborhoods are full of people on the sidewalks. Even the most boring of neighborhoods had more pedestrian activity than anywhere aside from Brady Street or the Third Ward. Beyond Portland, there is a LOT to see within 2-3 hours for interesting day trips.

However, there are some MASSIVE downsides to such propulsive growth. Portland is increasingly an expensive place to live and wage growth has not kept pace. What's happened is a big housing affordability crisis that has pushed a lot of those who were on the cusp of homelessness into tent cities. Even downtown, there are camps of people in tents in parks or sleeping bags on the streets. A lot of these folks looked like they were on drugs, but a fair amount (I'm told) actually hold down jobs but can't afford legal housing. Traffic is often horrendous, made worse by the hilly nature of the city and the frequent crossings over rivers. Portland is awash in transplants and that has left natives (or long-time residents) deeply resentful producing a kind of cultural divide.

Is there much Milwaukee can learn from Portland? Absolutely, but there are upsides to slow and managed growth. Personally, I think Pittsburgh provides a wonderful template on how to raise standards of living even as population growth remains stagnant or slow growing.
All good points. The other major drawback for Portland is who is moving there in droves. I'd much rather Milwaukee strive to maintain a thriving Hispanic community and other immigrant groups to sustain growth than become a magnet for every rebellious 20-something white kid with an art degree. Its easy to maintain a facade of being some utopian progressive city when the vast majority of people look, act, and believe the same things. Waves of new immigrant groups made Milwaukee what it is today, and I have no reason to believe that won't hold true in the city's future. It may not be the easiest path forward, but I think it gives the city a basis in reality that I wouldn't trade for anything else.
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Old Today, 07:48 PM   #35793
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I wouldn't dream of moving to a city like Portland or Seattle or one of these cities that people are 'flocking' to en mass. I'd rather move to city that is beginning its way up the ladder than someplace that has already been established as **the** place to be.
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Old Today, 07:51 PM   #35794
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKE-MSP-CHI View Post
I just got back from Portland (literally this morning) and have a few thoughts. Portland is an incredible city that is doing a lot of things right (including their amazing airport which is rightly ranked the best the in the country). Portland is beautiful, and they have made really great investments in mass transit. The "bad neighborhoods" are fairly middle class by Milwaukee (or Chicago) standards and there is a really encouraging dedication to preserving their architecture heritage. The food scene is unrivaled for their comparative size (or lack), and the retail scene is booming. Tourism continues to grow as Portland's international reputation grows. The energy is palpable there, and most neighborhoods are full of people on the sidewalks. Even the most boring of neighborhoods had more pedestrian activity than anywhere aside from Brady Street or the Third Ward. Beyond Portland, there is a LOT to see within 2-3 hours for interesting day trips.

However, there are some MASSIVE downsides to such propulsive growth. Portland is increasingly an expensive place to live and wage growth has not kept pace. What's happened is a big housing affordability crisis that has pushed a lot of those who were on the cusp of homelessness into tent cities. Even downtown, there are camps of people in tents in parks or sleeping bags on the streets. A lot of these folks looked like they were on drugs, but a fair amount (I'm told) actually hold down jobs but can't afford legal housing. Traffic is often horrendous, made worse by the hilly nature of the city and the frequent crossings over rivers. Portland is awash in transplants and that has left natives (or long-time residents) deeply resentful producing a kind of cultural divide.

Is there much Milwaukee can learn from Portland? Absolutely, but there are upsides to slow and managed growth. Personally, I think Pittsburgh provides a wonderful template on how to raise standards of living even as population growth remains stagnant or slow growing.

I'll be in Portland at the end of the month, I'm interested in seeing if I get the same impression of the city when I am there. It will be my first time in Portland, but I have always though Milwaukee could become a Portland Jr.
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Old Today, 08:36 PM   #35795
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Bucks Start Construction on Apartments
http://urbanmilwaukee.com/2017/10/17...on-apartments/
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Old Today, 08:38 PM   #35796
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Re: Indianapolis and Milwaukee, you have to remember that Indy is essentially the combination of Madison and Milwaukee for that state. There is no other urban center there. (Fort Wayne? Gary? Evansville? Nope.)

Re: Portland - great city, but one thing I dislike about it how incredibly UNdiverse it is. I'm not saying a city should have to meet some undefined benchmark amount of immigrants or ethnic minorities, but cripes sake the place is about 75% non-hispanic white. For a metro of over 2 million that's *insane*
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Old Today, 08:46 PM   #35797
MkeMillennial
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Quote:
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Bucks Start Construction on Apartments
http://urbanmilwaukee.com/2017/10/17...on-apartments/
I really hope “Park 7 Lofts” is the placeholder name for this project and not the official name. If you didn’t know that it was built on lot 7, you would be incredibly confused by how it got it’s name. It’s on 6th Street, not 7th.
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Old Today, 08:54 PM   #35798
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ToeKneeMKE, super excited you'll make it out there because I know you'll take some amazing shots. I will be uploading my Portland set HERE starting tonight. For those curious, I also have Milwaukee, Chicago (multiple), Indianapolis, Minneapolis, Cincinnati, etc. sets so you can take a direct look at "peer" cities. It's a shameless plug yes, but I think you can get the flavor for each through them.
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