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Old January 21st, 2017, 04:18 PM   #3821
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From Rail Journal

http://www.railjournal.com/index.php...ml?channel=523

Spanish high-speed ridership reaches 35 million
Friday, January 20, 2017



PASSENGER numbers on high-speed services in Spain rose by 5.4% to reach a record 35.21 million in 2016, according to annual ridership figures published by national train operator Renfe on January 18

Ridership on AVE long-distance services rose by 4.8% to 20.4 million, while Avant medium-distance high-speed services carried 7.4 million passengers, a 10% increase. A further 7.4 million passengers travelled on other long-distance services using a mixture of high-speed and conventional infrastructure (primarily Alvia services)

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Old January 21st, 2017, 11:09 PM   #3822
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arctic_carlos View Post
The station can't be heated because it isn't a completely closed space: trains enter and leave platforms through gaps at the end of the platforms which let cold air come inside the station. That's especially felt on the western side of the station building, because at least its eastern end connects with the urban tunnel.

To makes matters worse, in Zaragoza there's usually a strong wind called "cierzo" which happens to blow exactly in the same west - east orientation of the platforms, meaning that wind gusts within the station building can be as harsh as in the outside.
There is always the possibility to cover the platforms and tracks, creating two levels. On the new space created above the tracks they can build a heated space big enough to host 4-5 full trains worth of passengers.

With a proper reoranization of the space above the tracks you can have both a huge waiting hall and shops, bars and restaurants in a heated space.

I'm sure that they will rebuild the space at some point in the future, it is just stupid the way it is now with a huge empty space that you can neither heat nor use in any practical way.
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Old January 22nd, 2017, 11:43 PM   #3823
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That's what happens when you ask a famous architect to build a railway station.
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Old January 23rd, 2017, 05:25 AM   #3824
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Kinetic energy is a surprisingly useful passive heating source. I recall having heard that the Mall of America in Minnesota (!!) has no central heating system, and is kept warm in brutal Minnesotan winters simply due to all the kinetic energy that shoppers and retail workers there give off. Similarly, I would expect that some of Europe's great large open trainsheds are "heated" mainly by this phenomenon: the massive amounts of kinetic energy given off by massive passenger flows.

Zaragoza doesn't have this luxury. Delicias is clearly underutilized relative to size, which leads to a lack of kinetic energy, which leads to the station feeling "cold" relative to other facilities of its size. It is a beautiful station, but was designed almost entirely towards the aesthetic of entering the city through there, ignoring giving the space secondary uses (like that fantastic kinetic energy generator, a successful shopping mall...)
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Old January 28th, 2017, 02:17 PM   #3825
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Body heat is not kinetic energy.
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Old January 28th, 2017, 04:17 PM   #3826
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Quote:
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Body heat is not kinetic energy.
You're misreading me. I said the energy given off is the kinetic energy. Which makes intuitive sense -- movement generates movement energy (recall that kinetic means "movement" in Greek) which our senses process as a form of heat.
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Old January 28th, 2017, 04:28 PM   #3827
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To which extent do human body's heat really heat a place that has strong wind draft?

I think this would only work to a very noticeable degree in enclosed tightly packed places with external insulation. Think a night-club, for instance.
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Old January 28th, 2017, 10:27 PM   #3828
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hammersklavier View Post
You're misreading me. I said the energy given off is the kinetic energy. Which makes intuitive sense -- movement generates movement energy (recall that kinetic means "movement" in Greek) which our senses process as a form of heat.
None of what you said makes any sense. Kinetic energy in a station would be "given off" only if two people collide with each other (or if a train collided with a person). Body heat heating the air around it has nothing to do with kinetic energy.
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Old January 29th, 2017, 03:46 PM   #3829
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Originally Posted by Rebasepoiss View Post
None of what you said makes any sense. Kinetic energy in a station would be "given off" only if two people collide with each other (or if a train collided with a person). Body heat heating the air around it has nothing to do with kinetic energy.
No. It has something to do with kinetic energy - very little.

A train moving through station spends energy to overcome air resistance. That energy is first converted into air blasts and vortices, but soon into heat.
Also, when a train decelerates to stop in a station, its kinetic energy is by friction converted to heat brakes, wheels and rails, which heat is then conducted to air.
But most human body heat is not kinetic. Passengers awaiting train sitting still and immovable on benches would still be producing body heat of resting metabolism and giving it off to air by breathing and conduction.
It is true that a man who engages in vigorous physical action would spend some kinetic energy to overcome air friction. But that´s a tiny fraction of the total heat he produces. Even the additional energy he produces over and above the resting body heat is mostly not kinetic: most of the energy a man spends on walking is not spent to overcome friction of air, but friction of muscles and skeleton. A moving man does emit more heat than a man sitting still, but most of it is still emitted by conduction, panting and sweating, rather than friction of the air he displaces by moving.
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Old January 29th, 2017, 11:43 PM   #3830
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hammersklavier View Post
Kinetic energy is a surprisingly useful passive heating source. I recall having heard that the Mall of America in Minnesota (!!) has no central heating system, and is kept warm in brutal Minnesotan winters simply due to all the kinetic energy that shoppers and retail workers there give off. Similarly, I would expect that some of Europe's great large open trainsheds are "heated" mainly by this phenomenon: the massive amounts of kinetic energy given off by massive passenger flows.

Zaragoza doesn't have this luxury. Delicias is clearly underutilized relative to size, which leads to a lack of kinetic energy, which leads to the station feeling "cold" relative to other facilities of its size. It is a beautiful station, but was designed almost entirely towards the aesthetic of entering the city through there, ignoring giving the space secondary uses (like that fantastic kinetic energy generator, a successful shopping mall...)

Former station was here
https://www.google.es/maps/place/Zar....8890343?hl=es

In the middle of the image, former building (still existing and used for some railway issues).

It was possible enlarging it and having a central bus station (it was absolutely awful situation then) in a corner but the real problem was that city was "cut" with no possibility to cross rails except in two points.

Main point was here
https://www.google.es/maps/place/Zar....8890343?hl=es

and solved like this... cars under motorway (now a single street 4x4) and railways and passengers over them.





they decided to build a new station and refurbish all area... It was a huge area that could be sold because no longer use for railways.... and due to it, a lot of possible infrastructures could be done. Works and properties were ministry affair but go on about works (not using them for railways but for building) was a regional and local governments.

They decided what to built and, really, Delicias station is much bigger than what it is needed. Nice, but big... and almost all trains just call there. This is. They come from anywhere and go to another point, not starting or ending in Delicias. So then, passengers keep in station just for a while. They try to arrive 20 minutes or less before departure and that's all. A train arrives. Friday afternoon 200 people can take off but they will leave asap and station empty again.

The important point in station is not space for passengers but a good way for passengers, being important to find any train, leave fast and so on.

In addition, less than half of regional trains departs from Delicias (all going to east or south come from the other corner of the city, call in two small commuter stations, later in Delicias for a minute and keep on)
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Old February 11th, 2017, 09:34 PM   #3831
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i was on holiday at gran canaria last week and read in german wikipedia that a railline was planned from las palmas to maspalomas (15min travel time, which makes an average speed of about 200kmh, meaning, the line had to be planned for 300kmh?). the planning was from 2008 or so, and i havent seen any construction works or so.. so in other words: what about this project? was it cancelled? or are there any recent news? where were the stations planned, and where would the line run?
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Old February 11th, 2017, 11:43 PM   #3832
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This is the planned route. I don't know whether there are more detailed maps of the project.



The text says "the journey from San Telmo (Las Palmas) to Playa del Inglés (Maspalomas) would last 35 minutes, and 42% of the alignment would be built in tunnels". "The Cabildo (island government) will write a new territorial plan to design and study the extension from the capital (Las Palmas) to the north of the island (Agaete)".

Since 2008 there have been lots of studies and promises by politicians, but nothing else. The project would have a cost of €1.5 billion, that's why it's often seen by many people as unrealistic. If works had started before the economic crisis, it could have had its chance, but now it doesn't look very likely.

The same can be said of the two rail lines under planning in Tenerife.
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Old February 19th, 2017, 11:38 PM   #3833
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A symbolic milestone for the development of High Speed Rail in Spain was reached this week when the last rails were welded beneath Madrid Puerta de Atocha station and, for the first time, the two standard gauge HSR networks of the country were connected.

Track laying is now completed on the new HSL between Madrid Chamartín station and Torrejón de Velasco (junction of the Valencia/Alicante and Sevilla/Málaga HSLs 30 km south of Madrid), including the 6 km tunnel between Chamartín and Puerta de Atocha stations in Madrid. However, the construction of new underground platforms beneath Puerta de Atocha station has been postponed to a second phase, and a provisional single track tunnel bypassing the future underground platforms has been built instead.

Once the new HSL opens in late 2017 or early 2018, standard gauge high speed trains (AVE) will thus be able to run from León or Valladolid to Sevilla, Málaga, Alicante or Valencia. Besides, Alvia services between the northern coast and the Mediterranean, which now have to change gauge twice in Madrid, will save up to 45 minutes, thus reducing travel times. Nevertheless, the connection between the new HSL and the Barcelona HSL will be built in a second phase.

Cross-posting from the Spanish forum:

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Originally Posted by jmortizz View Post
Fotos de esta mañana. Finalizado el montaje de vía desde Torrejón de Velasco a Atocha

Ya llega la vía a la entrada del túnel by-pass, en la Calle Garganta de los Montes ¡Ya se pueden remolcar trenes entre las islas Norte y Sur de AV!



También se ha montado el desvío para pasar de doble vía (desde Parla) hasta vía única a la entrada del túnel.


http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...&postcount=426
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Old February 21st, 2017, 06:40 PM   #3834
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Hey,

thanks for the information on the new Madrid tunnel.
One thing I didn't understand.

It's soon possible to travel from Torrejón de Velasco (junction of the Valencia/Alicante and Sevilla/Málaga HSLs 30 km south of Madrid) to Madrid Charmartin and further on to the north of spain.

Is the HSL from Barcelona not connected to that tunnel? They all meet somewhere south of Madrid?
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Old February 21st, 2017, 07:20 PM   #3835
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The connection with the Barcelona HSL is not included in the first phase of the project.

While all 3 HSLs meet south of Madrid, an expensive flyover over the Seville HSL is still needed to connect the tracks leading to Barcelona with those coming from the tunnel.

The second phase of the project, including both the connection to Barcelona and the new underground platforms beneath Madrid Puerta de Atocha is planned, but it's not going to be a reality anytime soon, given the financial situation of Spain and the amount of new HSL under construction at the moment all around the country.

First phase:



Second phase:

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Old February 21st, 2017, 09:44 PM   #3836
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I guess Barcelona-Galicia also considered a bit less useful than Sevilla-Galicia...

On another topic I've seen some photos and read news that Antequera-Granada construction has really picked up. What's the best guess among the Spanish posters - will it be finished this year or more likely early next year?
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Old February 21st, 2017, 11:00 PM   #3837
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Quote:
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I guess Barcelona-Galicia also considered a bit less useful than Sevilla-Galicia...
I'm afraid this wasn't the main consideration taken into account when the new tunnel was planned.

Why? Because actually the tunnel is part of the HSL Madrid - Valencia, which has its km 0 in Madrid Chamartín station. Since 2010, AVE services running from Madrid to Valencia use the tracks of the Madrid - Seville HSL between Madrid Puerta de Atocha station and the Torrejón de Velasco junction, as the intial part of the Madrid - Valencia HSL wasn't ready. Right now, Madrid Puerta de Atocha - Torrejón de Velasco is the busiest part of the Spanish HSR network and needs a relief line, otherwise new services can't be implemented.

That said, not all high speed services to Valencia and Alicante will be moved from Puerta de Atocha to Chamartín once the tunnel opens, as Puerta de Atocha is a more centrally located station. However, that station is quite full right now, which means that new AVE services (probably those to Granada and Murcia) will have to use Chamartín station instead.

So it's quite likely that the opening of the tunnel will have the positive effect to relieve Puerta de Atocha station. Besides, in order to build the new underground platforms in Puerta de Atocha, it's necessary to close down four platforms of the current station (which will be reopened once the construction of the underground facilities is ready). That means that more services will have to use Chamartín station instead of Puerta de Atocha during the construction time.

And with regard to north - south / east services, they will probably go to Valencia and Alicante rather than to Seville, given that that part of the Mediterranean coast is a popular tourist destination among retired people from northern Spain (who are the majority of users of the current Alvia services).

The connection with the Barcelona HSL plays a secondary role in this scheme, especially given that among all services going from Barcelona to northern Spain (Galicia, Asturias, Basque Country, Castile and Leon), only those to Galicia would see a significant time saving being rerouted via Madrid... But the Galicia HSL won't be ready until 2022 or so, so there's no urgent need to promote right now that connection. Barcelona - Valladolid could also benefit from that connection, but it's a train mostly used for intermediate trips (Zaragoza - Burges, for instance) rather than point-to-point trips.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
On another topic I've seen some photos and read news that Antequera-Granada construction has really picked up. What's the best guess among the Spanish posters - will it be finished this year or more likely early next year?
Knowing the history of that HSL, I'd say 2018.

Madrid Chamartín - Torrejón de Velasco is probably the only opening which could take place in 2017. Even Vandellòs - Camp de Tarragona has been pushed back to spring 2018.
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Old February 21st, 2017, 11:36 PM   #3838
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There is a commuter line (3 kV) between the Andalusian HSR and the Levante HSR.

Valencia-Castellon will be in 2017, but it is not an HSR but a mixed gauge (3rd rail) line of 74 km.
Antequera-Granada according to the minister in February 2018 although ...

There are many elections in 2019.
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