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Old January 7th, 2014, 08:31 AM   #7241
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cove_adrian View Post
Actually, Brasov-Bacau isn't the bussiest mountain passage to the east.
According to Cestrin 2010 census, Brasov - Bacau, the key sector/the maximum MZA for DN 11 is in Oituz Passage with only a total of 8.649 vehicules.

Piatra-Neamt - Bicaz sector has a total of 8.785 vehicules and DN 17 has 8.274 vehicules for sector Gura Humorului-Campulung Moldovenesc, a similar value of traffic with an increase near C-lung,over 10.000 vehicules.

In my opinion it doesn't have sense to construct (yet) a highway for sector Brasov-Bacau:

1. If I want to reach Bacau from Brasov/Bucuresti/southern part of Romania I'll have to make a detour to Transilvania and climb and descent twice the Carpathian Mountains.
2. Most traffic/vehicules won't take a detour, 'cause it will be easier/less fuel consumption/timeless to follow the actual DN 2/E 85.
3. The solution to establish a highway to Oituz Mountain is a Sova style "thinking". Oituz section is a geological barrier, there are some flish rocks very rough. The actual DN 11 is a confirmation of the geological structure. The difficulty of the terrain is not similar to Prahova Valley, because in this area there aren't any medium river beds/valley to follow. It will be a major project with viaducts, tunnels and speed limits. Ask a specialist in geomorphology/geographer to explain the area and after that send the demo to Sova.

The solution is to finance a motorway for section Focsani-Bacau-Iasi/Focsani-Barlad-Husi/Focsani-Bacau-Suceava and further to Moldova/Ukraine.


Bucuresti-Brasov-Bacau = 362 km (2 passing of the Carpathians) vs Bucuresti-Focsani-Bacau (following the Siret Valley and the Romanian Plain) = 286 km. Which one is better?

According to the Cestrin map, the Brasov-Bacau route looks to have most traffic accross the Eastern Mountains to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by frunzaverde View Post
Aici, datele de la recensamantul de trafic din 2010. Cred ca e prima oara cand e postata harta pe forum, astfel incat sa va dati seama de nivelul traficului pe diverse A si DN-uri din RO. E si pe prima pagina, cu o mica legenda:



Si aici mai mare:

http://i.imgur.com/FeLtuzb.jpg


I won't go into this debate anmore. The point is simple: East Romania can benefit from a connection to western Europe by 2020-2020 through the extension of Nadlac-Brasov motorway to Bacau, and then further to Iasi/Suceava. A motorway connecting Bacau to Bucharest is needed but the road there is much better than the Brasov-Bacau connection now. And such motorway won't offer a western connection until 2020-2022. There will be needed a mountain crossing of the Eastern Carpathians, and it's obviously more beneficial to build it earlier rather than later.
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Old January 7th, 2014, 09:21 AM   #7242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Clerk View Post
According to the Cestrin map, the Brasov-Bacau route looks to have most traffic accross the Eastern Mountains to me.





I won't go into this debate anmore. The point is simple: East Romania can benefit from a connection to western Europe by 2020-2020 through the extension of Nadlac-Brasov motorway to Bacau, and then further to Iasi/Suceava. A motorway connecting Bacau to Bucharest is needed but the road there is much better than the Brasov-Bacau connection now. And such motorway won't offer a western connection until 2020-2022. There will be needed a mountain crossing of the Eastern Carpathians, and it's obviously more beneficial to build it earlier rather than later.

There is no debate. The numbers which I've pointed are shown onthe map pointed by you.

East Romania can now (2014-2020) benefit from UE POS-T funds and FEADR. Iasi-Tg. Mures and Brasov-Bacau are in TEN-T, Iasi-Tg. Mures is in core network.
Western is a priority zero and east must wait. After PP7 will see.
Time and politics will confirm that Moldova will have motorways.
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Old January 7th, 2014, 09:31 AM   #7243
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Of course it will have! The sooner the better. Bacau by-pass is a good start for Brasov-Bacau motorway.
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Old January 7th, 2014, 02:43 PM   #7244
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Some cool shots of the future route of A3 Comarnic-Brasov



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Originally Posted by pasadia View Post
Pentru exemplificare, cateva poze dintr-o iesire de o zi din septembrie 2012 pe traseul castelul Peles- Stana Regala - Piatra Arsa - Cantonul Jepi - Poiana Tapului:



















Voi edita adaugand locatiile pozelor.
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Old January 9th, 2014, 08:45 AM   #7245
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That's not entirely correct, but it's a good start.

For Romanian media highway=motorway

Quote:
National road company to start construction of 400 km of highway in 2014
JANUARY 8TH, 2014 AT 9:00 PM

This year the national road company will start work on approximately 400 kilometers of new highways, estimated to cost approximately EUR 5.8 bln, according to a ZF analysis.

Meanwhile, highway sections that total approximately 60 km are scheduled to be opened to traffic this year, on the Orastie-Sibiu and Nadlac-Arad routes. In fact, work on the two sections that make up the Nadlac-Arad highway should be resumed in 2014, the highway basically representing the gateway to Romania from Western Europe.

In fact, the most important projects value-wise will be the three highways whose construction works the state wants to lease, namely Comarnic-Brasov, Craiova-Pitesti and Bucharest’s highway-standard southern beltway. For the time being the state has only announced the private investors that will finance the Comarnic-Brasov highway, namely France’s Vinci, Greece’s Aktor and Austria’s Strabag. The highway will be built for EUR 1.2 bln according to older estimates (the national road company is yet to announce details concerning the financial offer filed by the Vinci-Aktor-Strabag consortium).

Also in 2014, the names of the other private investors willing to invest in the construction of the Craiova-Pitesti highway and Bucharest’s southern beltway should be announced. The works would start later this year, after the signing of the contracts. Overall, the three highway sections that will be built have a total length of 230 km and will cost approximately EUR 5 bln.
Source
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Old January 10th, 2014, 02:27 PM   #7246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bzbox View Post
I can see that Romanian biggest project is connecting Capital city to rest of western EU. Good job on that! Because when A1 will be complete, I'm planning to pay a visit to Bucureşti, so please try to make it snappy, okay guys
I can see that Romania has the same ideas as other former communist countries in this region: Slovenia, Croatia, Hungary, Czechia, Poland and maybe others (Ukraine, Belarus ...).
They all started the highways towards their western neighbours and have neglected/delayed the highways to their eastern neighbours.
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Old January 10th, 2014, 03:51 PM   #7247
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This discussion started in BG thread so to continue in correct place I am reposting the most important information's:

Bucharest - Giurgiu road is far from satisfactory maybe it is acceptable but not satisfactory. Road only in theory has four lanes throughout instead it features many sections narrowing road to only one lane per direction and those sections appear without any warning, especially roundabouts. Additionally road crosses many villages where right lane is widely used as parking space. Another reasons are speed restrictions which in villages are mostly 40 km/h and on open stretches it is 70 km/h. There is also big issue with inconsequence of signage with buildup areas starting but not ending and so on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by medicu' de garda
I invite you to comment further about the DN5 on the romanian section, since I think you made a wrong turn somewhere. The road is entirely 2+2, even in roundabouts (they are rather tight, I give you that). The limit outside villages is 100km/h and can be safely achieved. If you're talking about the Adunatii-Copaceni-Bucharest section, that one was under reconstruction and canceled, so it's in a poor state at the moment. It is still awaiting retendering, and should be done in 1 year's time.
Yes I was driving DN5 and I admit it's mostly four lane but specific local conditions make it mostly single lane in each direction. In buildup areas people park on right lane, the roundabouts are tight and can handle only two passenger cars but when truck approaches it is basically single line:
https://maps.google.pl/?ll=43.937671...184.3,,0,13.61
https://maps.google.pl/?ll=44.172123...175.84,,0,1.01
In buildup areas 40km/h is widely used:
https://maps.google.pl/?ll=44.186043...38.88,,0,17.36
and after it You land on other more or less reasonable speed restrictions
https://maps.google.pl/?ll=44.252638...221.53,,1,6.35
which after dangerous situation (curve in this example) are not dismissed by othre sign.
On this particular roundabout:
https://maps.google.pl/?ll=44.266054...62.86,,0,-1.19
I was really concerned weather I am in build up area or outside. Going from Bucharest I didn't noticed any sign of ending buildup area while on opposite direction I didn't spot anywhere build up area signs although soon I've entered what must be build up area. It may be fact that I've travelled long way and didn't noticed important signs but I am pretty sure that they weren't there. So although this road has four lanes and generally is slightly better than regular two lane roads travelling there is far from satisfactory because every km you hit unexpected obstacle and absurd road signs.
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Old January 10th, 2014, 03:56 PM   #7248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danielstan View Post
I can see that Romania has the same ideas as other former communist countries in this region: Slovenia, Croatia, Hungary, Czechia, Poland and maybe others (Ukraine, Belarus ...).
They all started the highways towards their western neighbours and have neglected/delayed the highways to their eastern neighbours.
Poland has not
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Old January 10th, 2014, 06:24 PM   #7249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard_P View Post
This discussion started in BG thread so to continue in correct place I am reposting the most important information's:

Bucharest - Giurgiu road is far from satisfactory maybe it is acceptable but not satisfactory. Road only in theory has four lanes throughout instead it features many sections narrowing road to only one lane per direction and those sections appear without any warning, especially roundabouts. Additionally road crosses many villages where right lane is widely used as parking space. Another reasons are speed restrictions which in villages are mostly 40 km/h and on open stretches it is 70 km/h. There is also big issue with inconsequence of signage with buildup areas starting but not ending and so on.


Yes I was driving DN5 and I admit it's mostly four lane but specific local conditions make it mostly single lane in each direction. In buildup areas people park on right lane, the roundabouts are tight and can handle only two passenger cars but when truck approaches it is basically single line:
https://maps.google.pl/?ll=43.937671...184.3,,0,13.61
https://maps.google.pl/?ll=44.172123...175.84,,0,1.01
In buildup areas 40km/h is widely used:
https://maps.google.pl/?ll=44.186043...38.88,,0,17.36
and after it You land on other more or less reasonable speed restrictions
https://maps.google.pl/?ll=44.252638...221.53,,1,6.35
which after dangerous situation (curve in this example) are not dismissed by othre sign.
On this particular roundabout:
https://maps.google.pl/?ll=44.266054...62.86,,0,-1.19
I was really concerned weather I am in build up area or outside. Going from Bucharest I didn't noticed any sign of ending buildup area while on opposite direction I didn't spot anywhere build up area signs although soon I've entered what must be build up area. It may be fact that I've travelled long way and didn't noticed important signs but I am pretty sure that they weren't there. So although this road has four lanes and generally is slightly better than regular two lane roads travelling there is far from satisfactory because every km you hit unexpected obstacle and absurd road signs.
I agree DN 5 is not the ideal road, but IMHO, it is OK for the current traffic. What will need to be happening though is that the completion of A3 in between Bucharest and Brasov somewhere by 2017-2018 and the construction of A0 south by the same time will cause more international traffic on Giurgiu-Bucharest, and then there will be needed a motorway in between Giurgiu and the future A0 south.
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Old January 10th, 2014, 06:32 PM   #7250
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Originally Posted by Le Clerk View Post
I agree DN 5 is not the ideal road, but IMHO, it is OK for the current traffic. What will need to be happening though is that the completion of A3 in between Bucharest and Brasov somewhere by 2017-2018 and the construction of A0 south by the same time will cause more international traffic on Giurgiu-Bucharest, and then there will be needed a motorway in between Giurgiu and the future A0 south.
Yes I do admit that at present situation this road is acceptable but it should at least receive road signs overhaul so that they will make more common sense. But in long term only motorway may solve the problem of mostly residential areas which are pain in the butt if You are on transit route.
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Old January 10th, 2014, 07:06 PM   #7251
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A0 south and A3 are happening this year - I mean start of works. These will cause at some point the reconfiguration of infrastructure in between Bucharest and Giurgiu at motorway level, so there are reasons for hope.
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Old January 10th, 2014, 08:21 PM   #7252
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Originally Posted by Le Clerk View Post
A0 south and A3 are happening this year - I mean start of works. These will cause at some point the reconfiguration of infrastructure in between Bucharest and Giurgiu at motorway level, so there are reasons for hope.
Bucharest bypass is much needed addition to road network but I hope that no one will build there toll gates making this road useless. Toll plazas always make traffic jams and reduces effective length of fast running making it reasonable to go via city. I know that at this moment it isn't clear how PPP motorways will be paid but I hope that if not through standard Rovignete it will be similar to it eg. register and pay online and than go uninterrupted.
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Old January 10th, 2014, 10:26 PM   #7253
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It's not clear indeed how the A0 will be tolled, but we hope it'll not be with gates. If anything, it's gonna be the busiest motrway in Romania, and putting gates there is simply a nightmare only considering it. So, no! Definitely no!
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Old January 10th, 2014, 11:01 PM   #7254
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Old January 10th, 2014, 11:02 PM   #7255
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Originally Posted by danielstan View Post
I can see that Romania has the same ideas as other former communist countries in this region: Slovenia, Croatia, Hungary, Czechia, Poland and maybe others (Ukraine, Belarus ...).
They all started the highways towards their western neighbours and have neglected/delayed the highways to their eastern neighbours.
linking the west was just the most important thing to be realized back then. thats all there is to it. for example, there is still no need to connect hungary to ukraine with a motorway (however it almost is, but thats another story)
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Old January 10th, 2014, 11:18 PM   #7256
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It's simply ridiculous to speak about eastern connections for the former communist countries in the early 2000s. Most of their trade, above 70% in any case, was and still is with the west. In Romania's case, 75% of trade is with western Europe, most of it with Germany and Italy.

And considering the shortage of funds of 5 years ago and even now, building simultaneously motorways to the west and east was out of question. I know Poland managed to build connections to the EU border/Belarus, but that's a different case. Poland doesn't have Romania's geography - being cut in 2 by mountains - and has had a lot more funding from the EU, even in terms of per capita, during 2007-2013 and previously.

Though I hope Romania will build its first west-east connection by 2020, through Nadlac-Sibiu-Brasov-Bacau-Iasi. The second should be Tg Mures-Iasi, but that is much more expensive. Mind you, both such connections cross mountains and hilly areas.
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Old January 11th, 2014, 12:38 AM   #7257
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But do Romania really need an east west motorway? Poland has on one hand Germany (EU leading economy) and on other Belarus, Russia and Kazakhstan free trade zone. So it is naturally that east-west connections are the most important. In Romania it is slightly different as it doesn't have any strong economy on the west while Ukraine and Moldavia are the poorest countries in Europe so there simply isn't enough traffic to justify need for such high capacity connection and most of Ukraine can be easier accesed by Hungary.

But Romania is important in other link which is connecting north and northwest Europe with Turkey and partly as a result of EU boundaries also with Greece. Romania has also booming economy which products are mostly exported in west direction. Regarding that Romania network plans are rather correct A1 and A3 eventually will bring you into Bucharest from where You can go in direction Turkey. Building of new bridge Vidin-Calafat made also travel to Greece possible thus A6 may become priority. Thanks to A6 also Ford factory in Craiova would benefit from that. This is what is needed for international traffic and only bigger changes may arose when Ukraine and/or Moldavia will join EU. The remaining roads will have mostly local (national) importance which doesn't mean that AADT there won't be enough to support motorway.
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Old January 11th, 2014, 01:19 AM   #7258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack_Frost View Post
linking the west was just the most important thing to be realized back then. thats all there is to it. for example, there is still no need to connect hungary to ukraine with a motorway (however it almost is, but thats another story)
If I remember correctly the M3 motorway will stop at Vásárosnamény - just ~15 kms from the Ukrainian border.

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I know Poland managed to build connections to the EU border/Belarus, but that's a different case. .
I still don't know why it was so important for them to build that.
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Old January 11th, 2014, 07:00 AM   #7259
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It is A4 to Ukraine border not Belarus and the decision was made tu build it after we got Euro 2012 with Ukraine, but we were not able to build it on time, but as the construction was advanced it was logical to finish it.
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Old January 11th, 2014, 09:16 AM   #7260
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But do Romania really need an east west motorway? Poland has on one hand Germany (EU leading economy) and on other Belarus, Russia and Kazakhstan free trade zone. So it is naturally that east-west connections are the most important. In Romania it is slightly different as it doesn't have any strong economy on the west while Ukraine and Moldavia are the poorest countries in Europe so there simply isn't enough traffic to justify need for such high capacity connection and most of Ukraine can be easier accesed by Hungary.

But Romania is important in other link which is connecting north and northwest Europe with Turkey and partly as a result of EU boundaries also with Greece. Romania has also booming economy which products are mostly exported in west direction. Regarding that Romania network plans are rather correct A1 and A3 eventually will bring you into Bucharest from where You can go in direction Turkey. Building of new bridge Vidin-Calafat made also travel to Greece possible thus A6 may become priority. Thanks to A6 also Ford factory in Craiova would benefit from that. This is what is needed for international traffic and only bigger changes may arose when Ukraine and/or Moldavia will join EU. The remaining roads will have mostly local (national) importance which doesn't mean that AADT there won't be enough to support motorway.
The AADT in the west-east dirrection is significantly higher than the AADT on the future A6 route. Just look at the traffic census I posted above. The traffic is national but increasingly important is the international traffic from Moldova, Ukraine and Russia. Romania has been building connections on the west-south dirrection (both A1 and A3), and these are steadily getting completed. Romania will have to start building south-east connections and west-east connections, according to the motorway planning.

In fact a connection through the most important cities in the north (Oradea-Cluj-Iasi and the further to Chisinau makes more sense considering the existing AADT, only that is outrageously expensive because of the mountains (EUR 9 billion at the previous FS, but that is now significantly reconsidered and that towards a much cheaper version) - still, that is beeing steadily built with Suplacu-Bors to rebecome U/C this year, Cluj by-pass existing, Cluj-Tg Mures tendered this year, and Iasi-Tg Neamt to be built with EU funds by 2020. This means that by 2020 there are chances that more than 2/3 of a west-east conection will be built, while the connection through Brasov will be hopefully also already completed, and most of that with EU money.

Traffic aside, the west-east motorways are needed in order to allow the connections with Western Europe for the eastern parts of Romania which are the poorest, and thus need this connection to develop economically. I think this is even more important than the traffic IMO, and east will become a target of infrastructure investments according to the Government in the coming period, after it was left aside for more than a decade. In addition, we also have a duty to connect Moldova to western Europe, considering the signing of the Asociation Agreement later this year. That not considering the fact that visas will be lifted for Moldovan citizens from the second half of this year, and the result in traffic will become very visible at the eastern border. We'll probably receive more funds for that connection from the EU.
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