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Old November 11th, 2012, 02:35 PM   #761
33Hz
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What I meant was that instead of having separate trains for Manchester, Newcastle and Scotland, one or more of those needs to be combined to save paths (e.g. make Manchester a through station, not terminus).

Interesting report from Greengauge21 on carbon reductions potential: The carbon impacts of HS2

I don't believe they will see as many carbon reductions from flights if transfer passengers are forced to go hither and thither to get to Heathrow...
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Old November 12th, 2012, 11:35 AM   #762
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Yeah I suppose, it wouldn't make sense for all services but perhaps some of them - Liverpool and Manchester used to be served by half of their Euston trains going via Birmingham New St (back in the 70s) - no reason why this sort of strategy can't make sense. But, it would still be a bit of a fudge and I'm uncomfortable with it. When it comes to Scotland services, the ultimate strategy must consider ECML and WCML services to Scotland from London (ECML) and the Midlands / XC (WCML), and work together with them. I believe every other HS2 London-Scotland train could be made to call at Manchester and make some sort of strategic sense, but I'd have to assess such a timetable to be convinced.
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Old November 12th, 2012, 02:47 PM   #763
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Looks like the Scots have given up waiting for the UK government at Westminster to bring high speed rail to Scotland, and want to press ahead with a line between Glasgow and Edinburgh (reducing the travel time to below 30 minutes)
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/t...tes.1352718659
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Old November 12th, 2012, 03:31 PM   #764
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Can Scotland even afford that?
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Old November 12th, 2012, 08:31 PM   #765
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sopomon View Post
Can Scotland even afford that?
Absolutely. Whether or not it's a good use of money is up for debate though.

The main purpose of this line would be to have high speed infrastructure already in place, so that any future link to HS2 (which probably won't be til the 2040s, provided it ever does happen) can be made.

Scotland has plenty of money, why do people always have this preconception of Scotland?
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Old November 12th, 2012, 08:45 PM   #766
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CityDreamer View Post
Looks like the Scots have given up waiting for the UK government at Westminster to bring high speed rail to Scotland, and want to press ahead with a line between Glasgow and Edinburgh (reducing the travel time to below 30 minutes)
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/t...tes.1352718659
It's only about 75 km between both cities so extra fast train is not needed to get under 30 min and thus costs are unlikely to be extraordinary high.
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Old November 12th, 2012, 08:55 PM   #767
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If this does go ahead, essentially, HS2 will be built from 'either end', so to speak.

On the English end: London to Birmingham, and on the Scottish end: Glasgow to Edinburgh.

Provided of course, that Westminster would trust Holyrood in completing it's own end by committing to building a line to the borders.
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Old November 12th, 2012, 09:35 PM   #768
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An old Transport Scotland document from 2007 mentions some proposals for High Speed.

One option included a new deep level terminus for Glasgow. It would be located under George Square, and would most likely have pedestrian links to Central and Queen Street direct from the new terminus.

On the Edinburgh end, the high speed line would run on top of the current E&G route into Haymarket, forming a sort of double-deck alignment, with a street-level station at Haymarket.
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Old November 13th, 2012, 12:25 PM   #769
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CityDreamer View Post
Looks like the Scots have given up waiting for the UK government at Westminster to bring high speed rail to Scotland, and want to press ahead with a line between Glasgow and Edinburgh (reducing the travel time to below 30 minutes)
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/t...tes.1352718659
As Scottish transport is devolved in the UK to Holyrood this is not a surprise. In other words it is not Westminster's job to plan railways in Scotland.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
It's only about 75 km between both cities so extra fast train is not needed to get under 30 min and thus costs are unlikely to be extraordinary high.
Extra fast trains from England will be using it though, so it will come at full price.
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Old November 13th, 2012, 10:16 PM   #770
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Extra fast trains from England will be using it though, so it will come at full price.
The article said max 225 km/h witch is significantly cheaper than 300 km/h
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Old November 14th, 2012, 02:03 PM   #771
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Anything above 250 km/h must comply to the high speed TSI's, under that you must comply with the normal speed TSI's.

DBAG als uses this distinction as a loop hole for the new ICx's (Vmax 249 km/h).

Over a distance of 75 km any extra speed increase would only give minimal travel time reduction. For comparison: In the Netherlands a 250 km/h HST is only 3 minutes faster that a regular 160 km/h train over the same 68 km line from Schiphol to Rotterdam.

So something in the order of 225 km/h to 240 km/h makes a lot of sense.
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Old November 14th, 2012, 03:31 PM   #772
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Quote:
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The article said max 225 km/h witch is significantly cheaper than 300 km/h
a) Doesn't matter what the article said, this is the scottish link to HS2 - a high speed line designed for 400km/h. The Scots won't limit the speed to 225km/h. When it comes to their own trains for the central belt they may only buy 225km/h-capable trains, just like the HS1 Domestic trains.

b) It won't be significantly cheaper.

From Network Rail's New Lines Programme paper.
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Old November 14th, 2012, 08:29 PM   #773
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M-NL View Post

Over a distance of 75 km any extra speed increase would only give minimal travel time reduction. For comparison: In the Netherlands a 250 km/h HST is only 3 minutes faster that a regular 160 km/h train over the same 68 km line from Schiphol to Rotterdam.

So something in the order of 225 km/h to 240 km/h makes a lot of sense.
There must be some additional speed restrictions. If we were to assume that 160 km/h train runs at 160 km/h for 64 km (allowing 4 km for picking up speed and braking) and 250 km/h train runs at 250 km/h for the same 64 km, the difference ought to be 8 min (24 min vs 16 min for 64 km).

Of course it's still true that for distances like this 249 km/h would be just fine.

By the way do trains from London to Glasgow go via Edinburgh (or vice versa) or is the line from England splitting up earlier?
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Old November 15th, 2012, 02:12 AM   #774
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It depends. The main route into Glasgow, the WCML (Virgin) splits in two. So you can travel to either Glasgow Central (From London Euston and Birmingham New Street) or Edinburgh (From Birmingham New Street).

However, the ECML (East Coast) runs from London Kings Cross to Edinburgh, with one train per day terminating at Glasgow Central via Edinburgh.

HS2 would serve Glasgow and Edinburgh in a similar fashion to the WCML.
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Old November 15th, 2012, 08:47 AM   #775
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
There must be some additional speed restrictions. The difference ought to be 8 min (24 min vs 16 min for 64 km).
The first and last few km's around the stations are slower of course (in the order of 40 km/h to 80 km/h). But more important, because of network capacity and platform availability a slight buffer has been built into the time table, otherwise any disturbance would cause delays.
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Old November 15th, 2012, 07:42 PM   #776
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A project has appeared on Transport Scotland's website, titled ''Glasgow's Terminal Stations'' - priced at £1.5-3bn, with a date of '2019'.

And, as for Scotland being able to afford that sort of money, it's been announced that the A9 road is getting a £3bn overhaul.
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Old November 15th, 2012, 11:45 PM   #777
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That project has been on their website for a while now, it's got little to do with High Speed, it's due to the fact that Central & Queen Street are expected to reach capacity very soon and expansion of either is highly unlikely, therefore a new Terminus is the likely solution. Several options are being considered, one is for a new surface station at St. Enoch's, the other option is for a new tunnel to be bored with a station built as part of this. The underground option also includes the chance of creating a metro system using the Cathcart Circle & several other lines.
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Old November 19th, 2012, 09:04 PM   #778
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The already seems to be a widespread assumption that HS2 phase 3 to Scotland will run on the route of the WCML, with split services to Glasgow and Edinburgh. Is it me or is the network being designed to be as fragmented as possible?

No disrespect to the people of Carlisle, but if the choice is a route through Cumbrian mountains or the comparatively flat East Coast where there is a conurbation of a couple of million people - serving Tyne and Wear, Edinburgh and Glasgow with one train - surely the choice is a no-brainer?
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Old November 20th, 2012, 01:27 AM   #779
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 33Hz View Post
The already seems to be a widespread assumption that HS2 phase 3 to Scotland will run on the route of the WCML, with split services to Glasgow and Edinburgh. Is it me or is the network being designed to be as fragmented as possible?

No disrespect to the people of Carlisle, but if the choice is a route through Cumbrian mountains or the comparatively flat East Coast where there is a conurbation of a couple of million people - serving Tyne and Wear, Edinburgh and Glasgow with one train - surely the choice is a no-brainer?
The East Coast route is 80 km longer. A longer route, however, wastes valuable minutes which these high speed services are meant to save. So routing the line to Scotland via the northeast of England doesn't make sense at all.
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Old November 20th, 2012, 10:15 AM   #780
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Its longer, the east coast means that Birmingham - Glasgow will be quicker on a Pendolino than on HS2, 80 miles further is billions of pounds more expensive, London - Glasgow will not obtain the market share it would otherwise. Frankly the east coast is a terrible idea and the only reason why LNER went that way was because the WCML had already been built.

I don't understand why there is any doubt that the west coast option is THE option. Just as I do not understand how anyone thought the s-network was a better idea than the y-network.
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