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View Poll Results: How will Ireland vote?
Yes - good Europeans 28 73.68%
No - for the laugh 9 23.68%
Dunno 1 2.63%
Voters: 38. You may not vote on this poll

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Old May 11th, 2009, 11:05 PM   #1
odlum833
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Lisbon Treaty Round 2 Debate

A new referendum on the Lisbon Treaty is likely in October (although Ireland will recieve concessions).....how do you think we should vote?, how will you vote? and what is the consequence of this vote?

Me, I intend to vote "yes". I only voted no the last time to give the Government a kicking and that French guy that was mouthing off (honestly!).

The EU has been good for us.

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Old May 11th, 2009, 11:57 PM   #2
Anderson Geimz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by odlum833 View Post
Me, I intend to vote "yes". I only voted no the last time to give the Government a kicking and that French guy that was mouthing off (honestly!).
Wow you really showed us...
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Old May 12th, 2009, 12:13 AM   #3
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42% of Irelanders who have voted "No" in the previous referendum have said that they don't know what the Treaty says. Also 46% of those who haven't voted said the same. So I encourage all of the Irelanders to try to fathom with the Treaty. You can find full text of the Treaty here. Your decision should be based on reasonabled arguments, but not random emotions determined by lack of knowledge about the subject.

For example, eurosceptics say that EU is not democratic enough, because its institution which is elected directly by voters - Europarliament - has too little powers/rights. So the Treaty of Lisbon will increase those powers. Also this Treaty will enable EU citizens to participate in the EU's law designing process. So if you want to improve the level of democracy in the EU, you should support the Treaty.

Also Irelanders shouldn't protest against their inner political issues while voting on the Treaty and we have an example of that in the quotation of the 2nd post in this thread. Your decision will affect half a billion of EU citizens. Please have this in mind.

Also I don't want to tell (or my post to look like I'm trying to tell) you how to vote. What I'm doing is more like an asking to reconsider your position very well.

I hope that EU will provide much more objective information about the Treaty for Irish people to be able to make accurate decision. But the conclusions should be done by the people themselves.

Quote:
Since joining the European Union in 1973, Ireland (Éire) has transformed itself from a largely agricultural society into a modern, technologically advanced Celtic Tiger economy.
Ireland and the EU 1973-2003 Economic and Social Change

Then I think about EU I don't think about it as an income donor. First of all I appreciate that EU brings higher living, social and environmental etc politics' standards to my country and to the other regions of Europe (e.g. Eastern Partnership Program for the European countries outside of the EU). EU is an opportunity for all of us - Europeans - to learn a historical lesson and to change Europe making it a better place to live. EU is a precedent in the worlds history. It is the best what has ever happened to this continent. And nationalism (country/nation related) is based on emotions, but not logics. My own country has regained independence only 19 years ago. But this is why I support EU so much. Because I know how much different it is. Sometimes I can meet such loud phrases as "EU is the new USSR" or "EU is nazis" etc. Phrases like these are inadequate and are given by people who have no better "arguments" to get attention. And in my opinion any person who use analytical and critical thinking will not agree on those phrases and will support the Treaty.

Further more I look more fundamentally to the EU. In the prehistoric times such small (yes, tiny) countries like Germany, France or UK have had a great impact on world's political and economical issues. Maybe they still do. But we must understand that this was determined by history, e.g. industrial revoliuton which has started in Europe so Europe was the one which felt the benefit of this the first. But at the moment world is getting more and more global and we can't expect that such an anomalous situation will continue. At the moment the geopolitical pole is transatlantic. But in my opinion geopolitical strenght will converge to the absolute size of country's population. So in the future this may lead to the Far East as the highest geopolitical power in the world. For example, they are already talking about their own union, of course, we all know ASEAN exists already. Also they have founded their own IMF analogue. All we know that EU represents the highest or at least one of the most highest living standards in the world, so it would be beneficial both for us and for the world if EU would keep its strenght and influence. I guess than we won't avoid the Far East as a geopolitical power, but we can expect to keep the world at least multipolar if we will act united. And this really is not based on plain ambitions of mine as European.

We must get over that limit of our mentality. This is the only way forward. So let's go fast forward along EU. It's better then united and EU has proved that already. We need deeper integration for that and the Treaty of Lisbon provides us with that.



This is the position that I support (but as I've said, conclusions is for you to make):


---

And also if you are interested in or if you care about the EU and its future, please participate in the survey dedicated to this subject and tell your opinion. It will require about 5 minutes to finish the poll. You can find it here.

Thank you in advance.

I guess that is it from me

Last edited by Giedrius_LT; May 12th, 2009 at 03:37 PM.
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Old May 12th, 2009, 12:39 AM   #4
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I am going to vote yes and I would encourage others to do the same. Remember there is every chance that the Conservative Party will form the next UK government and they will put their country to a vote which most think will be a "no". This treaty is in Ireland's interest and the EU and we could scupper those plans by those that are anti Irish (and don't forget that, these peoplle may have been lauding the no vote but they are not our freinds by any stretch of the imagination). Irish people are very pragmatic and are very aware and intelligent voters and I know that they will look favourably now. We have concessions which are good for us. We have no reason to vote no and I know this country wants a strong European Union. Like I say Europe is good for us and we are good for them. There is no reason to vote no this time out.
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Old May 12th, 2009, 01:04 AM   #5
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There wasn't any last time, but everyone is allowed one transgression I guess...
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Old May 12th, 2009, 01:13 AM   #6
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Hold on, we will vote as we please. This is a Republic and a democracy and if it is a no vote - so be it. I won't like it but I have to accept it. And that is that. The EU is not a donor to Ireland btw. It was when we first joined but not anymore.
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Old May 12th, 2009, 01:32 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by odlum833 View Post
The EU is not a donor to Ireland btw. It was when we first joined but not anymore.

Source.
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Old May 12th, 2009, 02:27 AM   #8
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That survey is from 2006 and only 600 million - trust me. Our aid budget to Africa alone is far larger then that. And anyway look at Belgium and Spain amongst rich countries - lol!
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Old May 12th, 2009, 02:36 AM   #9
Anderson Geimz
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I think Belgium is pretty obvious, don't you?

And Spain, is it already over the EU average even? (Ireland is in the top btw).
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Old May 12th, 2009, 02:47 AM   #10
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I know Ireland is near the top of the wealth league but im saying that we give alot in aid and that has to be factored in. We are committed to 12% GDP for aid soon enough but we are in the top 5 donors per capita in the world for aid. So I don't rate EU figures regarding Ireland. If the EU was a "donor" to Ireland they would be paying for that aid!
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Old May 12th, 2009, 03:04 AM   #11
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12% GDP for aid??!!

Last time I checked only 5 countries in the world even top 0.7%!
Those were the Netherlands, Luxemburg and 3 of the Nordic countries.


EDIT- what I could find quickly...
http://www.usask.ewb.ca/node/58
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Old May 12th, 2009, 09:18 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by odlum833 View Post
That survey is from 2006 and only 600 million - trust me. Our aid budget to Africa alone is far larger then that. And anyway look at Belgium and Spain amongst rich countries - lol!
You don't need to excuse for that Yes, I know it's not much, but I'm only correcting your mistake of a fact.
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Old May 12th, 2009, 12:36 PM   #13
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To Irish voters, please vote yes. Of course I won't be voting as a non Irish resident, but the referendum affects me just as much as it affects Ireland- I don't really think it is right to have a national referendum on an EU issue either; why should a tiny proportion of EU citizens (ie no voters in Ireland), decide the future for 500m Europeans. Referendums in the EU should be conducted by the EU across the whole EU, not by individual countries. Anyway that's beside the point.

I expect some people voted no because they don't like the EU- people must get it out of their heads that a 'no' vote is a vote against the EU. The EU is here to stay, and most people want it to stay. A 'no' vote translates as 'I want the EU to stay as it is'. Clearly very few people should be voting no because those who are against the EU would vote yes so that it can become more democratic etc, and those in favour would vote yes so that it can become more powerful.

Many people think this an integrational treaty; perhaps if we referred to it as the Reform Treaty it would demonstrate that it is not.

If people vote 'no' again, it will be a waste of time. The treaty will only be amended and put back to referendum yet again, because what else can they do? We can't get anywhere with the EU until the treaty is ratified and comes into force. If people vote 'no' again and delay the treaty again, then the EU is going to stall as a superpower. While superpowers like China and India storm ahead to take centre stage in the coming decades, the EU will be pushed to the side as its dated political structure doesn't work.

I have to admit, I was quite dissapointed when the result came through from the last referendum. The 'no' vote was like throwing it all back in the EUs face after it improved standards of living, infrastructure and wealth directly and indirectly.
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Old May 12th, 2009, 01:05 PM   #14
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Quote:
I don't really think it is right to have a national referendum on an EU issue either; why should a tiny proportion of EU citizens (ie no voters in Ireland), decide the future for 500m Europeans.
Ireland is constitutionally obliged to hold referenda on all significant changes to EU treaties because of a 1987 Supreme Court ruling - Crotty v. An Taoiseach. This is because new treaties mean the constitution has to be amended - and the only way that can happen is through a referendum; as Article 46.2 of the constitution says:

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2. Every proposal for an amendment of this Constitution shall be initiated in Dáil Éireann as a Bill, and shall upon having been passed or deemed to have been passed by both Houses of the Oireachtas, be submitted by Referendum to the decision of the people in accordance with the law for the time being in force relating to the Referendum.
Basically, the government and the Oireachtas (Parliament) do not have any control over whether or not to hold a referendum - they just have control over the date of the referendum.
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Old May 12th, 2009, 01:33 PM   #15
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And that is why the Irish constitution is such a beautiful document.

As for the last no vote, that was pure stupidity or laziness or both. The amount of people who I talked to on the subject were totally uninformed, yet voted anyway. "Whys that?" "Because I dont support abortion, I want to keep our corp tax rate and I dont want to be conscripted" ....i.e the Libertas party line. These people did a much more effective job of pushing a campaign of lies than the entire government yes campaign did when they had facts on their side, and people bought it because no one told them otherwise

I will vote yes, as I did last time, because the treaty is clearly beneficial. It increases the powers of the only elected body in the EU all the while cleaning it up a little. The only improvement I would have liked to see, more so than a constant commissioner, is an elected president, i.e. elected by a referendum spanning every EU member and the result of which is based on a europe wide number, not the results in each state. And as far as possible from the american system :/
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Old May 12th, 2009, 01:40 PM   #16
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I know it is a Constitutional issue in Ireland, but that doesn't really change the point.

I would like to see a single elected President too. I think many would like to see that too- but quite a few reforms would need to take place to the working structure of the EU for that to happen.
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Old May 12th, 2009, 02:55 PM   #17
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Sorry I of course meant to say 1.2 percent.......


Anyway the government is not that popular here right now so there is a risk there - people might want to kick them using the referendum. I hope not but there will be some :/

I don't mind a single European president for the EU - however all states would have to maintain their own heads of state IMO.
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Old May 15th, 2009, 12:13 AM   #18
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In the treaty, if a country part of the EU becomes involved in a war we cant be a neutral party?

If this is correct I will be voting NO.

regards,
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Old May 15th, 2009, 12:17 AM   #19
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That is wrong and we have legally binding assurances of that anyway in the consessions.
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Old May 15th, 2009, 12:37 AM   #20
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Transport21, that is not correct. Although the EU has the rightful vision that it should speak with one voice internationally, the nation states have full control over their foreign, security and defence policies. It will be a long time, if ever, until this sovereignty is removed from the nation states. It would really need all of the states to agree together that they would pool this sovereignty- and that will never happen when we have such a wide range of foreign policies in the EU (take Iraq for example).

I also can't imagine each state giving up it's national head of government and/or state. The EU president is not intended to replace, or take power to any extent, from them.
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