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New Retail Quarter - Life after "Sevenstone"?

602K views 5K replies 200 participants last post by  mjb66 
#1 ·
As most of us know the NRQ is the biggest project in the works. it covers the relocation of john lewis, the padestrianisation of the centre and charter row, whilst creating charter square. The development covers improvement of the infrastructure, many new shops, apartments and a large multi storey car park. whilst the project aims to demolish several eyesores such as the grosvenor it also aims to preserve many listed buildings in its vacinity.

i have got renderings but at the moment im too busy to post them all :)
 
#3,356 ·
We are not America though.

Our topography, space limitations, conservatism and planning system all conspire to encourage a different kind of growth which consolidates existing town and cities, rather than encouraging the kind of car dominant, urban sprawl typical in the States.

I can't see this changing anytime soon, even with some relaxations on developing in the Greenbelt. For example the population of Leeds is forecast to reach over a million by 2030, much of that increase is likely to be catered for within the existing city limits, not by endless sprawl. The city will become more dense and consolidate the existing urban core and regional centres, not dilute them.
 
#3,357 ·
I think people are mad suggesting that Sheffield should just give up on retail. Yes we need more businesses, culture, housing and the like in our city centres but despite the increase in internet retailing and out of town superstores I don't see the white flag being raised in Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, Nottingham, Newcastle etc or even the likes of Norwich, even with increased competition.

Sheffield is underserved by retail and if a high quality scheme could get off the ground at Sevenstone, it's far from too late for the city centre.
 
#3,358 ·
I'm not suggesting Sheffield give up on retail as I see it developing more like the type of shops you get on Division Street, not Fargate. In any case Sheffield is already well served by large scale retail, out at Meadowhall.

The centres of Liverpool, Leeds and Manchester are leagues ahead of Sheffield centre in terms of retail. If we follow their model we will be trying to play catch up for decades, and probably never make up the difference. Sevenstone was intended to try and plug this gap but the lack of action and likely cancellation of this scheme speaks for itself.
 
#3,359 ·
I think from the Retail prospective, the concept of catching-up to the other big players is a good idea. It would create jobs, stimulate our economy and give all those people (like me) who don't like Meadowhall another alternative.

We don't need to have the best-of-the-best city centre shopping areas. Rather we need something which would get us ranked around 20th (or better) and take us out of the thirties.

Do you know, Sheffield city centre has been ranked higher than Meadowhall in terms of shopping? Although hard to believe, its fact! according to national shopping surveys. (I think SCC is around 37, Meadowhall around 42).

I am very assured Sevenstone's would most likely go ahead. I believe this due to the mass amount of funding being introduced from areas such as the City Deal. Also the scheme is now much smaller and ideal for a struggling developer such as Hammerson. Both for the Government and for the city, the loss of the sevenstone scheme would be too costly. People like Nick Clegg may not win a seat again for ages if sevenstone's were to be put on hold again.
 
#3,360 ·
The spend in the centre is slightly more than at Meadowhall yes. Together the centre and Meadowhall account for a total spend greater than Manchester city centre.

However Meadowhall has the type of large units not available to retailers in the city centre. It's also notable that the bigger brands and more upmarket retailers (Urban Outfitters, Cath Kitson) are continuing to invest at Meadowhall, and not in the centre of Sheffield. This confirms the trends I highlighted in my previous post. So in that case let Meadowhall continue to have the retailers that demand the large units, and outfits like the Next homestore and Ikea, whilst the centre focuses on a more bespoke retail and entertainment environment (lots of independent shops, coffee bars, patisseries, restaurants etc) that will appeal to higher residential and business populations in future.

Sevenstone is now so much smaller as to be irrelevant to the original brief. We are not going to get a Liverpool One style development, or anything that will enable Sheffield centre to shoot up the national shopping surveys. The scheme as originally intended is effectively dead and whatever replaces it, if anything, will not dent the power of Meadowhall in the slightest.
 
#3,362 ·
The --- slightest.
To start with, the survey is not focused on the finance spent, rather environment etc. (far to my knwoledge).

I absolutely disagree with your opinion. You are right to say that the city centre does not have the large units as required. However, the developments at the Moor and Sevenstone should provide this. After we have the large units and have a better public realm, I cannot see people in Sheffield who live closer to the city centre travelling further to Meadowhall. The city centre currently offers alot (especially around Fargate and High Street), a new Sevenstones and the development of the Moor would be a great treat to shoppers. New stores are locating to Meadowhall because of lower rents and more security of success. Once the city centre is re-developed then it would also fit in this category. Both Scottish Widows and Hammerson will ensure we get a good retail offering after their mass investment. This would also open the door for more retailers in the future choosing the city rather than Meadowhall.

Keep hope, as the city centre may suprise you in a couple of year.

In terms of Sevenstones, I know its cut down in size and finance. This is because know it has become affordable in this terrible climate. I cannot see it not happening as tooooo much is at stake. Too many people will lose if it did not happened, therefore there is alot of backing to keep it alive.
 
#3,361 ·
one more thing,
Our city centre has to only offer a good enough shopping environment to attract people from the South Yorkshire and Derbyshire region. We have to only offer enough to convince people to shop more locally then going to either Manchester or Leeds. Hopefully, with the development of the Moor and Sevenstone, our city should meet this criteria.

We don't need to get people from our competitors (Man or Leeds) regions to come to us. I think the days have gone when people would travel very far when they have a good place in their own back yard. We only have to be good enough to attract local regions, students and visitors to the city, something I think we can do quiet easily. (which may be supported with future developments such as Rapid Buses to Rotherham and Tram-Train).
 
#3,363 ·
Neither the Moor nor Sevenstone combined are going to offer anything like the transformation of the retail environment that Liverpool One has done for Liverpool. Sevenstone will be more like the Trinity Walk scheme in Wakefield than the kind of developments you see in Leeds or Liverpool. Therefore under this scenario and as you rightly point out, the centre will be perfectly fine for for local shopping in Sheffield. However it won't be competing on the same terms as Meadowhall in terms of big retail, or in any other sense with Leeds or Manchester. It's not really good enough for a city the size of Sheffield and we have to do more to ensure people want to come to our city, without getting too bogged down in retail being the 'primary' solution.
 
#3,367 ·
As I have said previously, We do not need to be competing with the masses, rather, we need to offer enough to keep the people in Sheffield, and south Yorkshire pleased. Pleased enough to keep them from travel to cities such as Manchester and Leeds for shopping. Imagine a city centre with the completed Sevenstone's and Moor and the Independent businesses of Division St, the traditional feel of Fargate up to Tudor Square and the lively atmosphere of High street. That is what I would call my 'ideal' shopping area, bubbly, cultural and lively. Sheffield can easily become this in the next 5 years.

Meadowhall does have its good's such as free parking, indoor and fairly clean atmosphere. However, it would also has its bad's such as being on one end of the city, sometimes too hot and cramped and boring. Similarly, the city centre also has its Good's and Bad's. Someone who loves Meadowhall type of shopping would certainly dislike Sheffield city centre, similarly people who like City Centre style shopping will dislike Meadowhall. The solution is to have a balance between both shopping areas, so people get whatever they want in their preferred environment. Although Sheffield city centre is currently lagging behind abit, these schemes would do enough to make us par with Meadowhall. (don't forget, the point of the city centre is not to have a shopping environment similar to the out-of-town shopping centre, rather different and unique which makes it special)

I agree with the concept that Retail is not all that should be focused on in the city centre. Personally, if I was an influencing figure for Hammerson, I would urge them to keep a tower bloc for accommodation and/or office space. However, I acknowledge that Retail is a core sector which the city centre is lacking in, therefore a scheme solely for that purpose is also understandable. Hopefully, it would be an anchor for further developments.
 
#3,364 ·
I think if there's the opportunity to bring in the big names then this should be done. I don't agree with the idea of a local shopping centre at all. This is the city centre of one of the largest cities in the country, and that idea would be unacceptable in a city of this size anywhere else in the world as it should be here.

Who knows what is to come of Sevenstone, or the Moor redevelopments, however, we need to wait for the economy to improve before we write off the city centre in favour of Meadowhall.

It still needs to be realised that the financially better off areas and people in the city region live on the western side of the city. I assure you many of these people would rather shop in the city centre presented the opportunity of the better retailers than in Meadowhall with all the chavs.
 
#3,365 ·
UK retailing is currently changing, and will continue to do so over the next few decades. Some towns are dying, others are growing.

What surprises me is that Sheffield appears to be one of the largest in the UK to be dying.


I shop in Chesterfield, which currently has a fairly similar retail offering to Sheffield despite it being a considerably smaller conurbation.

By the time that Sheffield start developing the Moor or Sevenstone, Chesterfield will have added the 11 acre Northern Gateway retail project and the large Debenhams/Maplins sites on the edge of town. It might even have started on the 7.5 acre Chesterfield Waterside with its own retail offering.


In my opinion, even when the Moor and Sevenstone are finished the damage to Sheffield will have been done. It will be very difficult to persuade people to make the effort to go to Sheffield for a handful of new shops; Meadowhall, Leeds, Manchester and Nottingham will still have a better selection of shops. Even Chesterfield may be more attractive for retail?

There are two ways that Sheffield can attract people;
1)Make it easy and cheap to park. I can park for free in Chesterfield and Meadowhall. Why pay to shop in Sheffield? If people are prepared to shop online to save a few pennies, they’ll certainly avoid Sheffield to save a few pounds.
A series of large, cheap car parks within a short walking distance of the city centre is essential. AFAIK, John Lewis is actually the cheapest at £1/hour despite being most central. If they can do it, then Sheffield City Council must be able to offer cheap or free parking, mustn’t they? The free bus really should ferry people from the car parks to the centre too.

2)Offer OTHER things to do for the retail therapy crowd; Cafes, bars and restaurants are a must; The theatres are excellent, but there also needs to be a quality city-centre cinema too; Re-arrange the Graves library/art gallery to make it a desirable destination; Large covered areas are needed to keep dry in during bad weather (arcades rather than malls); More organised areas for quality buskers and musicians would make a better atmosphere; Customer-friendly opening hours (those who work 9-5 are the ones with money); Proper, integrated tourist breaks (theatre/concert tie-ins, real ale trails, sports tie-ins); Proper promotion of sporting events (sell to the unaware, not to those already in the know); Make the fantastic parks easily accessible to tourists from the city centre; Free public transport for hotel guests; Make the city centre a desirable place at night for those who don’t want to get drunk – theatre, cinema and concert goers are often put off. I’m sure that there are lots more things that could be done.

What is key 2) is that 1) has to be done. Sheffield needs people to hang around for hours, not to force them away after their essential shopping is done.

Sheffield needs to be a destination, not an obstacle.
 
#3,369 ·
Even if Sevenstone is smaller it will have a catalyst effect of promoting new business in the area. For example Trinity Leeds has created an overspill of new developments surrounding it. Theres a slick new shopping arcade with 20 retail retail units opened last month directly opposite (below). The main selling point been it's opposite Trinity. Sevenstone is vital for the city, without it the city can't grow and will decline further.

 
#3,372 ·
I don't think Sheffield has as poor transport links as Harrogate.

There is a reasonable rail service to London from Sheffield station, from where you could have picked up a supertram to take you direct to the proposed conference site. Road links are pretty good here too, right on the ring road which discharges you straight onto the Parkway or down Saville Street for easy access to the M1. The roads across the Pennines are crap but well, they are what they are.

Of course it would be better if we had electrification of the MML or HS2 but you can't just write off projects or ideas because we don't have those in place.
 
#3,376 ·
No it doesn't, but it is still worse than Birmingham and Manchester which would provide the main competition, and to some extent Leeds. I just think that if Sheffield were to invest in a conference venue, it risks being a white elephant until MML electrification/HS2.

And I dare to suggest that the best location for a conference and exhibition centre in Sheffield would be at Meadowhall- the most likely place for the HS2 station. Cheap land, ready for development for all those big halls that would be needed.
 
#3,377 · (Edited)
Having been to the ICC in Birmingham fairly recently the most impressive thing for me was its location near the canal and proximity to local hotels, eateries and bars. There are many within a 2 minute walk of the main conference area. Most conferences have a lot of downtime after the event and the spend in Birmingham must be high because of how easy it is for people to pop out to Broad St or Brindley place.

In fact it was the first time I had been to Birmingham and because I was able to explore on that trip quite easily and was impressed, I have been back since with my wife, staying in a hotel and also venturing into the shopping areas. For me it is not the ease of getting to it that mattered as I think all cities in the UK are easy to get to, it was more about the offer when there and the ease of accessing it on foot in downtime that was more important. Therefore location needs to be fairly central, close to everything (especially hotels, food and drink) so I would say in Sheffield the best area (long term) would be where Park Square roundabout is if they remove it anytime soon linking in to Victoria Quays, or more immediately between the Wicker and Derek Dooley way IRR (Kelham Island), allowing for clearance of that warehouse dominant area, close to 60% of our hotels, the Wicker could become a restaurant and bar district and they could then re-open a viable Victoria BOOM!)

Anyway... Sevenstone...
 
#3,379 ·
Yes of course more needs to be done to bring business, conferences and cultural visitors into the city, but you seem to be suggesting that building any kind of retail is a bad idea and the city should just wave the white flag and move all retail to Meadowhall. So what if Sevenstone isn't going to put Sheffield in the premier league of retail, if it improves the city and offers some bigger floorplates to get a few more decent retailers into the city that would be enough.

You seem to be suggesting that it's mutually exclusive and by building a retail development Sheffield will be missing out in other areas, which is nonsense, we're not talking about an either/or here, or only one site left for development. If any city has the space to improve it's centre in numerous ways it's Sheffield.

So since you seem to be so dead set against any form of retail improvement in the city centre, and particularly sevenstone, tell us why you think Sevenstone is bad for the city?
 
#3,397 ·
Surely prime land in Sheffield Center should be used for building state of the art office blocks as the city needs jobs. How many people would a conference/exibition facility employ full time?
Isn't Sheffield still drowning in debt from the world student games? Where will the money come from to build such a facility?
I agree, a state of the art conference/exibition center would be good for any city but lets get real.
No private company is going to be knocking on the councils door waving money to build this. Sheffield Council are in hook to the banks for millions, they are not going to build this. In the current economic times would the banks loan Sheffield Council the millions to build this? i doubt it.
At present a lot of the developments in Sheffield are either half built, stalled or have been axed.
A conference/exhibition center in Sheffield at the present time is 'pie in the sky' nonsense and will not be happening.
 
#3,384 ·
It would be, apart from one thing - access for exhibitors and services. Even a small conference centre would aim to host small exhibitions, usually running alongside a conference. It's surprising how much 'stuff' exhbitors bring with them - even for small exhibitions. All that stuff requires cars and vans, usually at set times for setup and breakdown. I've done exhibitions at Excel, Olympia and NEC, plus a range of smaller venues (Hampden Park even). Most have easy access for vehicles - that's not something you can say about the site next to the station.
 
#3,387 ·
The idea was for a big exhibition centre that would compete with the likes of GMEX and the NEC. The site next to the train station would be far too small for such a facility.

We'll have to see what happens with HS2, if the station is near Meadowhall then there are ample number of sites around there that could host a large exhibition centre. Being located next to the M1 would also be a massive advantage too.
 
#3,389 ·
Conference centre / concert venue

With the new Leeds concert venue nearing completion, it seems clear to me that Sheffield Arena will soon start to lose a LOT of music bookings to this larger venue.

Sheffield will have to either either take this on the chin or fight back. I can't believe that expanding the existing arena is financially viable, but the council COULD build another even larger concert arena on adjacent land, as part of a larger collection of exhibition venues. The land across the canal, directly opposite the arena is occupied but easily re-locatable.

It would never match Birmingham in terms of scale of transport links (airport), but could be a very large series of exhibition halls.




ALTERNATIVELY, I believe that the best location to build such new exhibition halls and a concert venue in the city centre would be on the bus station at Pond Street which is almost empty these days (people seem happier to use Arundel Gate anyway).

As well as the bus station land, the building containing the Penny Black pub (Royal Mail?) could be redeveloped, as could the old post office.

An area bounded by Pond Street, Flat Street, Bakers Hill, Ponds Forge, Digital Campur & Harmer Lane is about 32,000m2 (8 acres). If this were developed to the same height as the adjacent buildings on Arundel Gate, it could be a VERY large city centre exhibition and entertainment complex. It would link the station into the city centre much better and could be the thing to rescue Fitzalan Square and the surrounding area. It would also be in the right area of the city to connect to a redeveloped Castlegate and all the hotels.





As with retail, the entertainment and exhibition/conference offering in Sheffield is very definitely split into two distinct locations. I think that Sheffield city council has to decide what the Arena area is going to be used for in the future. I can see it being used for mainly sporting events as the Leeds venue is amuch better layout for music and comedy.

If that is the case, then I personally think that the Pond Street location could definitely bring life back into the city centre.

Just think of all those millions of people who've visited the Arena since 1991 and haven't spent a penny in Sheffield - no restaurant, pub or hotel spending. It's just the kind of thing that Sheffield needs to bring a civilised night time economy into the city centre.

Where do other UK cities have their large arenas? Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds definitely have theirs in the city centre and consequently have the knock-on effects to their cities' vibrancy...


Anyone care to comment?
 
#3,390 ·
, it seems clear to me that Sheffield Arena will soon start to lose a LOT of music bookings to this larger venue.

Anyone care to comment?
Yes, aren't both around 13,500 capacity? I didn't think there was that much difference in terms of size. I agree that Sheffield Arena may get less gigs as some artists won't want to play in two Yorkshire venues. But tours make money and bands will play both arenas if they can sell enough seats at each venue

In my opinion, and many others' it's a shit place for gigs anyway.
 
#3,401 ·
We also have Tramlines which is a unique, adult festival and growing all the time. "Festivals" are everywhere these days and the market is generally regarded to be pretty saturated with many losing money.

My girlfriend works for SIV - apparently the national consensus is that Sheffield folk are some of the most difficult to sell tickets to. It's also true that we lack a truly great mid to large venue between The Academy/Leadmill and Don Valley/Arena.
 
#3,421 ·
Hammerson are powering ahead in Leeds.

From the Construction Enquirer

John Lewis deal to start £550m Leeds site

Hammerson has finally tied-up a deal with John Lewis to anchor the first phase of its Eastgate Quarters shopping centre in Leeds.

The deal means construction can finally start on the project which could be worth up to £550m.

Hammerson said construction will start on site in early 2014 on the first 36,000 square metre phase of the project to create two new retail streets.
http://www.constructionenquirer.com/2012/07/23/john-lewis-deal-to-start-550m-shopping-centre/
 
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