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Old March 18th, 2008, 01:48 AM   #21
TheCat
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Quote:
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And why not? IMO it's the best way to connect a road to a highway(ofcourse semi-cloverleaf for minor roads)
Partial cloverleafs are better. Regular cloverleafs create weaving and decrease safety. In Ontario, for example, cloverleafs are not up to motorway standard.
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Old March 18th, 2008, 07:12 AM   #22
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When is it planned to be operational? Yet before Euro 2012? This ringroad is very very wide. Much wider than Berliner Ring. IMO it could have been planned more compact and closer to the city.
Yeah, I agree - the proposed ring road is awfully far from the city. This road might be good for bypassing the city (which is the case for Euro 2012), but local drivers simply would not use it to get from one place to another within the city. The Moscow ring road (МКАД) is designed much better in this sense (although it is regularly jammed).
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Old March 18th, 2008, 11:28 AM   #23
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The Moscow ring road (МКАД) is designed much better in this sense (although it is regularly jammed).
That's not so weird. Take a city of 12 million, and build 2 ringroads which are up to freeflow-design standards. It's a bit the same like the BQE in Brooklyn. The only expressway to connect millions of people.
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Old March 18th, 2008, 10:09 PM   #24
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Partial cloverleafs are better. Regular cloverleafs create weaving and decrease safety. In Ontario, for example, cloverleafs are not up to motorway standard.
And what if the cloverleaf is with collective road(I don't know how it is in English - road collecting traffic from entrance ramps close each other)?
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Old March 18th, 2008, 10:14 PM   #25
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I really hope that Poland and Ukraine can handle the traffic of Euro 2012. The Kiev ringroad is going to be vital. I'm a bit worried about the Polish-Ukrainian border. Lots of Europeans will probably go by car, so won't the border stations get totally overcrowded? I mean, it's the outside border of the EU, and waiting times are several hours at this border.
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Old March 18th, 2008, 10:21 PM   #26
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The INTENTION is to finish the whole A4, with a big enough border crossing, I suppose. But it's only intention
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Old March 19th, 2008, 04:39 AM   #27
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Is that plan for Kiev orbital final?
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Old March 19th, 2008, 05:00 AM   #28
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And what if the cloverleaf is with collective road(I don't know how it is in English - road collecting traffic from entrance ramps close each other)?
Well, it depends on what you mean by "collective road". In a collector-express system (like the one used on Ontario's Highway 401) the collector lanes are designed with the same motorway standards as the express lanes (the only difference is that express lanes skip exits in the city, but both are through freeway lanes), and so cloverleafs are never used.

If you are talking about a system similar to the frontage roads used in Texas and some other American states, then I'm not totally sure, because the frontage roads are not motorway roads, but in this case you can just use a diamond interchange I think.
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Old March 19th, 2008, 11:52 AM   #29
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He means parallel lanes at cloverleafs. So through traffic don't have to mind about weaving traffic.
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Old March 20th, 2008, 11:13 PM   #30
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Quote:
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Is that plan for Kiev orbital final?
Yes, it was approved yesterday by the Ministry of Transportation. They will build this ring road in 3 stages:
  1. From Чернигов-bound highway tо Борисполь (1:30 to 4 o'clock on the map), then they will start building a 4,5km bridge across the river in the South.
  2. From Ковель-bound highway, to Житомир-bound highway, to Одесса-bound highway, then across the river to Борисполь (10 to 4 o'clock).
  3. The remaining northern part including a bridge over Dnieper.
First two parts are going to be finished by 2012, and the third - by 2017. Obviously, they want to make sure that football fans will be able to get to major football stadiums quickly by bypassing Kiev. It is a very impressive plans, but I am afraid they either will not finish it on time or finish it with numerous safety design violations as they have been known to do.



Here's the link (in Russian): http://www.segodnya.ua/news/939210.html
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Old March 20th, 2008, 11:16 PM   #31
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finish it with numerous safety design violations as they have been known to do.
Like the well-known single-layer highway
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Old March 20th, 2008, 11:20 PM   #32
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Too bad they don't state how long this ringroad is gonna be. As for now, the Berlin Ring A10 is the longest in the world. (maybe overtaken by some Beijing ringroad?)
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Old March 20th, 2008, 11:23 PM   #33
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According to Wikipedia about the 7th ring road (proposed)

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The entire expressway ring road would stretch for well over 400 kilometres; the eastern portion alone could go for 100 kilometres. All of Beijing would be encompassed, including Badaling and Miyun, and even areas as far east as Tianjin and parts of Hebei province (including Zhuozhou and Sanhe).
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Old March 20th, 2008, 11:27 PM   #34
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Quote:
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Too bad they don't state how long this ringroad is gonna be.
They do. The length would be about 206 km.

Last edited by Alex Von Königsberg; March 20th, 2008 at 11:36 PM.
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Old March 20th, 2008, 11:28 PM   #35
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Well, it depends on what you mean by "collective road"
This:




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Old March 21st, 2008, 09:53 AM   #36
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Quote:
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Partial cloverleafs are better. Regular cloverleafs create weaving and decrease safety. In Ontario, for example, cloverleafs are not up to motorway standard.
Regular cloverleafs are much cheaper, because you only need to build one wide viaduct. If traffic isn't that high the weaving isn't such a problem. The same goes for traffic safety.
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Old March 21st, 2008, 01:52 PM   #37
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Well, you see safety problems even on what we call quiet interchanges, like the A7/A32 interchange in Heerenveen. The AADT is 55.000 for A7 and 35.000 for A32.

Most problems occur when cloverleafs are constructed on interchange which have a lot of exiting (through) traffic.
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Old March 21st, 2008, 02:15 PM   #38
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Well, you see safety problems even on what we call quiet interchanges, like the A7/A32 interchange in Heerenveen. The AADT is 55.000 for A7 and 35.000 for A32.
Yeah, but that's just because that intercharge hasn't got parallel roads. Quite dangerous when there's a truck merging with around 50-60km/h while traffic flows with 120km/h.
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Old March 21st, 2008, 05:44 PM   #39
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In the USA, they are called 'collector/distributor' (or 'C/D') lanes. They separate entering/exiting weaving traffic from the high-speed mainline traffic.

Mike
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Old March 22nd, 2008, 09:18 AM   #40
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Quote:
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This:
<pictures>
Thanks for the clarification. These certainly improve safety, but there is still weaving going on because traffic exiting and entering shares the same lanes. You cannot fully avoid the problem either way. In this case, of course, it is much safer since you don't disturb the usually much faster-moving through traffic, but even in this case drivers must take extra care when merging/exiting to make sure someone is not moving into the merging lane to exit while he/she is moving out to merge. But I agree that if the budget is limited, these aren't bad for quiet interchanges.

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In the USA, they are called 'collector/distributor' (or 'C/D') lanes. They separate entering/exiting weaving traffic from the high-speed mainline traffic.

Mike
Interesting. In Ontario (the 401, 427, and some parts of the Gardiner/QEW) the collector/distributor lanes are as much high-speed as the through (express) lanes, and in fact it's not rare to see the express jammed and the collectors flowing freely (this can happen due to construction or just everyone blindly merging into the collectors). The only difference is that the express lanes are not bothered by merging/exiting traffic. This also prevents people who use the highway for a short trip from using the express lanes altogether, since they can complete their whole trip on the collectors. Lastly, it is just a way to split a very wide highway (18+ lanes) into multiple carriageways. I believe this is the case on at least some US freeways too, such as the New Jersey Turnpike. In Ontario, however, cloverleafs are not up to 400-series standards, so weaving doesn't occur anywhere, not even on the collector lanes.
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