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Old October 20th, 2010, 04:59 AM   #21
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It doesn't help that the alternative is toxic. Secularism for Somalis equals Clan-ism.

I think this whole Islamist/Sharia thing is just a fad, like socialism was for Somalis in the seventies. People there change their ideologies as much as changing clothes, just to suit their personal agendas. People in general don't have much of a collective mindset...it's all about "me".
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Old October 20th, 2010, 05:06 AM   #22
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Bakool, Somalia

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Old October 20th, 2010, 05:06 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Xusein View Post
It doesn't help that the alternative is toxic. Secularism for Somalis equals Clan-ism.

I think this whole Islamist/Sharia thing is just a fad, like socialism was for Somalis in the seventies. People there change their ideologies as much as changing clothes, just to suit their personal agendas. People in general don't have much of a collective mindset...it's all about "me".
I don't mean hardcore secularism, like Turkey with the banning of hijabs. Nahhh, too much. Even for me.

But I mean secularism in the sense that just have a line in the constitution acknowledging Somalia is a Muslim country and leave it at that in the same paragraph as respecting religious practice. No Qu'ran influenced constitution, no religious leaders having veto over powers. Most certainty no crazy laws introduced and after including human rights act or something to that accord saying females and males are equal in the constitution. No need to take it any further, any laws that may come in the future even if one day Somali's elect a Islamist Government would run foul of the constitution.

But otherwise yeah, I hope it's a fad. What is happening now is toxic to Somali traditions. My relatives were telling me how you can't even have a proper wedding any more and wear make-up
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Old October 20th, 2010, 05:08 AM   #24
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This whole "agriculture boost" thing has become some kind of propaganda piece for Al Shabab.
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Old October 20th, 2010, 05:09 AM   #25
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Impossible now since Islamism has exploded as a major political force.
I know, but in the long run it may calm down a bit.
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Old October 20th, 2010, 05:13 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Xusein View Post
This whole "agriculture boost" thing has become some kind of propaganda piece for Al Shabab.
True.. Al-Shabab as whole lost focus when they turn on agianst some of the general public.
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Old October 20th, 2010, 05:16 AM   #27
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I don't mean hardcore secularism, like Turkey with the banning of hijabs. Nahhh, too much. Even for me.

But I mean secularism in the sense that just have a line in the constitution acknowledging Somalia is a Muslim country and leave it at that in the same paragraph as respecting religious practice. No Qu'ran influenced constitution, no religious leaders having veto over powers. Most certainty no crazy laws introduced and after including human rights act or something to that accord saying females and males are equal in the constitution. No need to take it any further, any laws that may come in the future even if one day Somali's elect a Islamist Government would run foul of the constitution.
It was like that (for the most part) before the civil war. Imams were some of the dictator's biggest critics, and when they got too criticized, he executed them and their supporters. So they have went from one extreme to another.

I actually don't think Somalia will end up becoming an Islamist state, the current people in charge have poisoned the movement as much as the warlords have made clan politics nasty. With all the things going on and all the people that they are pissing off, I doubt that Al Shabab will even be able to retain power for 3 years. A new way will eventually end up being found...
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Old October 20th, 2010, 05:24 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Xusein View Post
It was like that (for the most part) before the civil war. Imams were some of the dictator's biggest critics, and when they got too criticized, he executed them and their supporters. So they have went from one extreme to another.

I actually don't think Somalia will end up becoming an Islamist state, the current people in charge have poisoned the movement as much as the warlords have made clan politics nasty. With all the things going on and all the people that they are pissing off, I doubt that Al Shabab will even be able to retain power for 3 years. A new way will eventually end up being found...
I know and then it went to the extreme of secularism and now it seems the pendulum has swung back to religion.

But which new way is there? Clan politics has failed, warlords, dictatorships, Somalia's brief stint with democracy, anarchy and now religion based politics.
Either way, I really hope Somalia has peace. I don't know if it's just me but I think many in the diaspora are on edges waiting for that to happen before the influx of return happens heh.
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Old October 20th, 2010, 05:24 AM   #29
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I know, but in the long run it may calm down a bit.
Somalis do not like people telling them what to do. Freedom is something that our nomadic blood cherishes. Al Shabab is too rigid and incompatible for our culture. They will have the same fate as Siad Barre, and the warlords.

The future is the business class! They are the real power in Somalia, they back Al Shabab for the stability that they've given, but if "the youth" aren't able to this for long, they will drop them like a bucket. The US is watching them like a hawk.

Do you know how the Islamic Courts came to power? Businessmen were sick of the warlords so they bankrolled the Islamists to get rid of them. Same thing will happen with Al Shabab. These people are nothing in comparison to Barre and the NSS...
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Old October 20th, 2010, 05:39 AM   #30
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I know and then it went to the extreme of secularism and now it seems the pendulum has swung back to religion.

But which new way is there? Clan politics has failed, warlords, dictatorships, Somalia's brief stint with democracy, anarchy and now religion based politics.
Either way, I really hope Somalia has peace. I don't know if it's just me but I think many in the diaspora are on edges waiting for that to happen before the influx of return happens heh.
The problem is that it has moved out of their control since Al Shabab has erupted, the clan war has ended but the wadaad war has just begun. The war isn't only about Somalis anymore, it has been connected to the "War on Terrorism" whether Somalis like it or not.
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Old October 20th, 2010, 05:45 AM   #31
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@Xusien, We the Southers are gready when it comes to power, just like u said is all me me and forget everyone else.

Look at Somaliland for instance, the late Abdirahman Tuur set up the state and after short months in power had a disagreements with the late Igal, but he step down peacefully. But, Igal started from nothing and build alot with few resources. Furthermore, Puntland managed to do the same. However, as usuall, the South lacks true leaders.
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Old October 20th, 2010, 05:50 AM   #32
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@Xusien, We the Southers are gready when it comes to power, just like u said is all me me and forget everyone else.

Look at Somaliland for instance, the late Abdirahman Tuur set up the state and after short months in power had a disagreements with the late Igal, but he step down peacefully. But, Igal started from nothing and build alot with few resources. Furthermore, Puntland managed to do the same. However, as usuall, the South lacks true leaders.
Can't the South accept a temporary North leader if it is so difficult to get one themselves.

And I think there is a overlooked factor here that could be of use, Somali women.
They can and should be able to play a huge role when it comes to peace and settlement.
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Old October 20th, 2010, 05:51 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xusein View Post
The problem is that it has moved out of their control since Al Shabab has erupted, the clan war has ended but the wadaad war has just begun. The war isn't only about Somalis anymore, it has been connected to the "War on Terrorism" whether Somalis like it or not.


Bloody US can't help itself, why did it turn a domestic war into international. I doubt Al Shabab housed Al Qaeda when the strikes occurred but I can't say now whether it does or doesn't.
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Old October 20th, 2010, 06:01 AM   #34
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Can't the South accept a temporary North leader if it is so difficult to get one themselves.
Last time they tried that with Abdullahi Yusuf, from Gaalkacyo (north enough), it was such a bitter failure that the old man could not even enter Muqdisho.

Quote:
And I think there is a overlooked factor here that could be of use, Somali women.
They can and should be able to play a huge role when it comes to peace and settlement.
Would be nice but I doubt that conservative Somali men would ever accept it.
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Old October 20th, 2010, 06:09 AM   #35
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Last time they tried that with Abdullahi Yusuf, from Gaalkacyo (north enough), it was such a bitter failure that the old man could not even enter Muqdisho.

Would be nice but I doubt that conservative Somali men would ever accept it.
Shit, that bad?

But Somali women are a tie between clans that men just do not provide, they can go from one to the other.

Somali men need to un-conservativise themselves (not a word but still!)
Move aside and let the women have a turn, can't get worse can it

Last edited by Lailax; October 20th, 2010 at 06:14 AM.
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Old October 20th, 2010, 06:15 AM   #36
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I wouldn't be against a female leader. They are half the society after all, if half the population is kept down, a country has no future.

I actually shudder to think that we might become like our neighbors to the north one day (KSA, Yemen, etc) when it comes to these things.
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Old October 20th, 2010, 06:36 AM   #37
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al shabab is the most retarded terrorist group out there
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Old October 20th, 2010, 06:53 AM   #38
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I actually shudder to think that we might become like our neighbors to the north one day (KSA, Yemen, etc) when it comes to these things.
Yeah ... I'd cry if we became like KSA. That is nightmare stage for me and nice to know it's not just me who wouldn't welcome that
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Old October 20th, 2010, 07:15 AM   #39
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Well, I have female relatives of course, I would not want to live in a country where they would be second-class citizens.
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