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Old November 11th, 2017, 08:17 AM   #341
kratos1211
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Originally Posted by baybum7 View Post
you know what's unfair? A space for 2 cars occupied by 2 people compared to a bus that has 50+ people. Those small amount of busses mighy be running all day, but they are still dwarfed by the sheer number of cars that clog edsa.

Reason why people prefer to stay with the unreliable and unsafe MRT-3 is because the busses share the same space as cars and are subject to the same traffic.

I would gladly take a bus or public transport but it takes me 2-3x longer on the road. ex from UP to Mandaluyong. I can be home in 1hr but if I take the bus, it will be 2hrs at least plus the walking/change of transport to jeep/tricycle and if I take the MRT, it's crowded and it still takes longer than if I drove.

I know how hard it is for 80% of the population that needs public transport to move around. This free for all transport policies needs to change, where accountability is hard to implement and profit chasing of the thousands of operators is the motivating factor. Each bus will stop and pickup passenger on all major stops whenever they want. That's why we can't have bus route number system where primary and secondary roads are used even on unprofitable routes.

UV express, TNVs are borne because of the lack of a proper buses/jeepney transport. BRT will be great as long as they implement it as 1 or 2 operators system than what they are creating a multi-bus operator BRT system where profit chasing of the different operators will undermine the system.
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Old November 11th, 2017, 06:22 PM   #342
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from my understanding, the main reason why it's in the upper range in terms of cost is due to, although minimal is still required, ROW acquisition. The lines will be traversing the areas with the highest cost of land in the Ph.


I'm totally with you in putting in just one operator. And i know that the current admin has a strong political will. But even with that, the operators have strong lobbying powers that the incompetence of LTFRB is showing. They can't put the interest of the general public over a few groups of people.


The edsa BRT was never meant to replace any rail system - and that has been reiterated to death in this thread.
ROW acquisition? Buses travel on public roads. They don't need to cut through people's properties, same with sidewalks. Now if they are going through private enclaves, subdivision, then that should be free access issue not a ROW issue.

Yes, I'm one of those. I'm one of those who strongly opposed the conversion of the LRT 2 by Francis Yuseco. I'm one of those who cannot see a BRT line being promoted in Manila instead of urban rail line.

I'm for BRT, as in bus rapid lanes, fully dedicated bus ways in major avenues. They can implement that within 1 year based on the 2 examples (links) I posted.

There's a lot of frustration in Manila and the DOTr Sec and his team are out to lunch. Don't know how to solve the issue. Maybe we should invite them here on SSC and maybe they will learn something. I wonder if the planners of DOTr have google?
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Old November 12th, 2017, 12:47 AM   #343
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row fr brt stations
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Old November 12th, 2017, 01:05 AM   #344
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People use their cars because the trains suck (but note even if the trains suck, they'd rather use that than the bus). Once the MRT3 is fixed, "Park at Shang, go to Makati" will be a thing again. Even more so once MRT7 and the Mega Manila subway is built. So tiis na lang, no need to spend 48 billion pesos on a redundant thing. If anything, merge all the operators into one, then continue using the Yellow Lanes. Kung ayaw, then let them have the next 6 years as their waning years because once the trains are all up and running, lugi silang lahat! In the words of President Duterte...



It so applies to the buses as well!
I highly doubt that even improving MRT-3 from 400k pax to 800k pax will solve it because even now, the MRT-3 is nearly reaching that max cap. And it doesn't fix the connections between edsa to the CBDs.

Having a single operator will solve the busses from being unruly - but you are still putting them on the same traffic as the private cars. And time and time again, enforcement isn't a strong trait of the gov, so no point in removing private cars on yellow lanes.

Now, is it worth the money? Summing all metro rail projects; Subway, PNR, MRT-7, LRT-2 East and LRT-1 south is at Php916 Billion. Comparing to the edsa BRT of Php37.8B, the project cost is a drop in the bucket compared to all other rail projects ongoing or planned. In essence, rail and BRT should work together in making a good mix in transportation.
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Old November 13th, 2017, 01:58 AM   #345
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row fr brt stations
Aiii...what for? They can do it an the sidewalk (they just need to expand it). Here is an example (maybe a good idea for EDSA, QC AV, Ortigas, C5 and all those wide boulevards where they can have fully dedicated busway on the side of the road.) They're trying to make ultra complicated so they can just jack up the price.

This one is Chicago, nothing fancy but it is BRT line.

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Old November 13th, 2017, 02:17 AM   #346
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I highly doubt that even improving MRT-3 from 400k pax to 800k pax will solve it because even now, the MRT-3 is nearly reaching that max cap. And it doesn't fix the connections between edsa to the CBDs.

Having a single operator will solve the busses from being unruly - but you are still putting them on the same traffic as the private cars. And time and time again, enforcement isn't a strong trait of the gov, so no point in removing private cars on yellow lanes.

Now, is it worth the money? Summing all metro rail projects; Subway, PNR, MRT-7, LRT-2 East and LRT-1 south is at Php916 Billion. Comparing to the edsa BRT of Php37.8B, the project cost is a drop in the bucket compared to all other rail projects ongoing or planned. In essence, rail and BRT should work together in making a good mix in transportation.
They could put the $8b subway on EDSA. That will increase the capacity to 1.2 m riders (according to Boo Chanco's source), 700k more than the current alignment, 400k more than the max cap of MRT 3. It can stretch from Camanava to MOA. They can tunnel bore under the roadway, no ROW etc to contend with. MRT 3 concession is up on 2025, and it's pretty obsolete by then. Might as well kill it, and put the pedestrian and bicycle paths in the middle with trees.

Then follow the lay of the land - circumferential and radial roads. They can put the BRT money to a series of bus rapid transit on the radial roads. These radial roads will traverse EDSA. The P788 m per km is way overblown. I'm sure if they downscale their dreams to more practical, workable solution like that BRT line in Chicago on the side of the road. Even if they put it in the middle it shouldn't even cost that much (Vaughn, Canada CAD$5 m per km, /USD $4 m).

So if they followed this train of thought, then $8b plus $1b = $9b for subway and a series of radial road BRTs. They can implement the brt routes almost in 1 year. Of course, PNR seems to have a partner already for the QC Ave line, and Filinvest (?) wants to build a Skytrain to BGC.
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Old November 13th, 2017, 05:01 AM   #347
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that would be redundant to MRT-3, rather than serving those that do not have a mass trans optipn yet on other routes.

Re: stations. I don't think they are super fancy stations. It's just that if you put the station on the streets for ease of access (no need to walk upstairs) you also need to expand a bit the walkway. I'm guessing all stations would also have basic things like AFCS. It is a very huge project with 120 stations (some need ROW) and the need for a lot of busses, and the last thing we need is to cheap out so the stations and busses do not have a/c and the former looking like barangay funded waiting sheds.
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Old November 14th, 2017, 04:01 PM   #348
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that would be redundant to MRT-3, rather than serving those that do not have a mass trans optipn yet on other routes.

Re: stations. I don't think they are super fancy stations. It's just that if you put the station on the streets for ease of access (no need to walk upstairs) you also need to expand a bit the walkway. I'm guessing all stations would also have basic things like AFCS. It is a very huge project with 120 stations (some need ROW) and the need for a lot of busses, and the last thing we need is to cheap out so the stations and busses do not have a/c and the former looking like barangay funded waiting sheds.
Mmmmm............are you DENSE? Did you read and understand my post?

MRT3 concession is up on 2025. It is obsolete, is past its usefulness even as we type. Change it to a subway! That's what I'm saying. It will add 400,000 more capacity than the 800,000 MAXIMUM capacity of MRT 3 if and when it is actually working at peak condition (NEVER again in its lifetime); 700,000 more capacity than the current Ayala subway alignment. By the time the concession is up, the subway would have at least been almost complete! (JICA seems to think they can do a subway in 5 years).

If money is tight then rearrange your priorities. Buses and puv's are the first line of defense for a constipated city like Manila. (Read Kratos' lament up thread - that is very real, and it will get worse.) $1 b for brt at $5 m per km = 200 km of busways. They can downscale their wet dream to realistic levels. We have BRT in Toronto going into the suburb without the fancy stations (except at end terminals requiring ROW and interchange) We have the same bus shelters/stations/stops as in the picture I posted. Do they look like Baranggay shelter? Lucky for people with baranggay shelters, because at some stops here, it is only a POST! (Although Metro Linx are changing them to fancier shelters.) Maybe you want fancy stations with air conditioning? Well, we have bitter winter here 5-6 months/year and we don't have portable heaters in those bus station shelters!

It is about time people analyze the costs, and match it with the objectives. Sometimes I think people are blown over by designs but forget the objectives of the projects. It is to move people efficiently in and around the whole METRO area, not just in the choice districts. We are way past discussing issues based on textbook knowledge but rather on practical applications of various solutions. Without having experienced actual working integrated transit systems, gov't planners are swimming in dark waters! And real estate planners have very myopic view of planning limited to their development.

Let me repeat as I have said here a couple of times before.

1. Integrate the public transit systems in Manila - metro, lrv/lrt, skytrain, monorail, buses, puvs.
2. Create system wide route map taking into consideration pop and route densities and the urban plan - circumferential and radial roads (very common urban plan in Europe, So America, even Beijing is a series of ring roads.)
3. Have a transportation mix according to need, routes, costs.

Ay naku...if you think $1 b BRT system for 46 km serving a pocket of metro area is excellent value, make your day.
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Old November 15th, 2017, 02:45 AM   #349
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seeing the current timeline of the subway, it would take about 5-10 years (conservatively) to put up a subway in the PH. So are you saying wait for about 18 more years for a solution to EDSA? That's another great idea

I'm sorry, but the the arguments are getting crazier and crazier in this thread.

As I said, if you're complaining about the $0.75B (to be more accurate) for this project, it's a very small amount of what the entire mass transit projects of the metro with very huge benefits. Why pick on the 4% of the budget? Dapat 0% ang BRT? And even with a small portion, sobrang scrutinized even the smallest details? Is there something going on here or some people are just biased on anti-BRT sentiments?

You're complaining about the cost of the station, I'm guessing that your area in Toronto does not get hit by about category 3++ typhoons regularly and get more than 30 degrees Celsius of heat with higher than 75% humidity. Another apples to oranges comparison.
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Old November 15th, 2017, 05:28 PM   #350
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seeing the current timeline of the subway, it would take about 5-10 years (conservatively) to put up a subway in the PH. So are you saying wait for about 18 more years for a solution to EDSA? That's another great idea

I'm sorry, but the the arguments are getting crazier and crazier in this thread.

As I said, if you're complaining about the $0.75B (to be more accurate) for this project, it's a very small amount of what the entire mass transit projects of the metro with very huge benefits. Why pick on the 4% of the budget? Dapat 0% ang BRT? And even with a small portion, sobrang scrutinized even the smallest details? Is there something going on here or some people are just biased on anti-BRT sentiments?

You're complaining about the cost of the station, I'm guessing that your area in Toronto does not get hit by about category 3++ typhoons regularly and get more than 30 degrees Celsius of heat with higher than 75% humidity. Another apples to oranges comparison.
Deal with reality. That MRT 3 will be obsolete, it won't handle the demand. Digging up EDSA now will save the day for the future instead of making piecemeal band aid solutions. Look what happens with the Dalian trains - I don't think they will be able to make them run in another 2 years. And the concession on MRT 3 is up in 2025. You cannot convert it to metro rails because it will need wider tracks.

What difference would it make the $8b subway/10 years to complete, to realign to EDSA? 700,000 more in capacity, over the busiest route in MM.

What difference would it make to downscale the BRT plans with $1 b price tag for 46 km at $17 m per km, versus $ 5 m per km? 200 km of bus rapid lanes. (Indonesia spent $ 2 m per km).

What is a BRT? Here is the basic definition ITDP https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BRT_Standard

Quote:
Basic characteristics

There are five essential characteristics of a BRT corridor.[8]

Dedicated right-of-way ┬— An exclusive right-of-way is vital to ensuring that buses can move quickly and unimpeded by congestion. Enforcement of the dedicated lane can be handled in different ways, such as delineators, bollards, or colorized pavement.
Busway alignment ┬— Alignment of traffic lane so that conflicts with other traffic can be minimized. Options include exclusive bus only corridor, median (central reservation) aligned and curb aligned (but curb aligned only where there are infrequent intersections to cause traffic conflicts and delays)
Off-board fare collection ┬— Collecting fares before boarding, either through a ┬“barrier controlled┬” or ┬“proof-of-payment┬” method, is one of the most important factors in reducing station dwell time and therefore total travel time, thus improving the customer experience.
Intersection treatments ┬— There are several ways to increase bus speeds at intersections, all of which are aimed at increasing the green signal time for the bus lane. Forbidding turns across the bus lane and minimizing the number of traffic-signal phases where possible are the most important. Traffic-signal priority when activated by an approaching BRT vehicle is useful in lower-frequency corridors.
Platform-level boarding ┬— Having the bus-station platform level with the bus floor is one of the most important ways of reducing boarding and alighting times per passenger. The reduction or elimination of the vehicle-to-platform gap is also key to customer safety and comfort. A range of measures can be used to achieve platform gaps of less than 5 cm (2.0 in), including guided busways at stations, alignment markers, Kassel curbs, and boarding bridges
All of these can be done WITHOUT acquisitions of ROW (buses travel on public roadways, sidewalks/medians are public property), bike paths (that's a different ball game.) it doesn't tell you design needs of stations.

What is P.75 b in USD? $15 million to be exact at 50=1. That's a lot of money anywhere in the world even in Canada ($18 m) for a bus system.

About the weather? Toronto weather normally ranges between -20c the coldest to +35c the hottest. Factor in the windchill and humidex to get the real weather. We have blizzards, ice storms, black ice on the roads, and yes we do occasionally get flooded with heavy thunderstorms. Here read about it, extreme weather in Toronto. http://students11grade.blogspot.ca/2...o-weather.html No air conditioning/portable heaters in bus sheds/shelter/even stations/subway platforms. Just look at the picture above I posted, that's basically what we have. Not good enough for Pinoys?

Arguments are getting crazier and crazier? Your arguments are based on assumptions, and pie in the sky, wet dreams. There are better uses for various transport solutions, and money in the country but there seems to be more wet dreams than practical solutions. The objective of the gov't is to help solve the traffic congestion, the transpo problems for its citizens. So far the the subway alignment, this BRT plan are delivering short on their objectives.

Btw., we can argue and discuss but may be I have an unfair advantage over you. I've worked on assignments in PH, Russian, a few Lat Am countries dealing with strategic planning for the past 20 odd years. Analysis is second nature to me now professionally, so it's easy for me to spot out gray areas, red flags. So I'm putting red flags, gray areas, etc when it comes to all these plans.
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Old November 15th, 2017, 07:46 PM   #351
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Nope. You're not talking about reality, you're talking talking about an ideal setting.

Ideal: There's enough space on walkways that ROW is not needed.
Reality: There's not enough space within walkways. The standard walkway in the PH is about a meter (as owned by the Gov). That's not enough for a station - let alone a station with a maintained walkway. Even if you put the station on the median, you would be needing some road space - and that would either be done by expanding the roads or not expand it at all to inconvenience private cars.

Ideal: There should be significant improvement once MRT-3 has been converted.
Reality: There are no plans yet if the concession will be extended (ie LRT-1) or if it will be converted to a different line. And even then, there's no assurance that there are other projects that would alleviate EDSA from the traffic.

Ideal: Not much money is needed for a BRT in EDSA.
Reality: As you said, EDSA is the busiest road in Manila, and you want to cheap out on a mass transit? I'm pretty sure that saving money was the main reason MRT-3 is in it's sorry state now, and yet you are willing to do the same thing all over again.

Ideal: We can make do with a cheap station.
Reality: Even with LRT-1, MRT-3 and LRT-2 based station, many people are already complaining that it's too hot and it doesn't provide much protection to weather. If the BRT stations are to be deliberately cheaped out on, then you'd never hear the end of it. Ever thought why pinoys don't walk that much? And yet, some people here want to push the western idea of walking where you want to go or use a waiting shed. If a/c is not that much of an issue - I guess that's not necessarily reflective of the proliferation of air-con buses or trains. Using that logic, we can just remove all a/c of these transport systems since, apparently, they are a waste of money.

You are putting red flags - but the solutions you are presenting does not necessarily solve what the main issues were; buses sharing the same road as private vehicles, multiple operators and buses being on the sidewalk side of a main thoroughfare. You're either providing outlandish ideas or just simply repackaging what already exists - but does not dwell on addressing the root causes and will just result in the same problem recurring. The EDSA BRT covers on these root causes without having to cover in-depth actions that would definitely delay it due to the many legislation in the country that does not always make sense.

If the $0.75B that covers 48km compared to other projects of the same cost that will only cover about 11km of a rail, then it's already cheap in its own right, and covers more area at the same time. Most of the cost comparison you are doing are outside of the country - which is not reflective the problem within the metro. If you are going to use the same logic, LRT-4 is grossly over budgeted since the Jakarta LRT is only at $42.8M/km while the LRT-4 is going to be at $100M/km - totally disregarding the other parameters and items that each project is trying to address and the situation within the country they are in. You may be trying to point out red flags from your 20 years of experience, but it does show as well that you only question things that you want to point out based on the situation you would want to picture.
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Old November 16th, 2017, 08:14 AM   #352
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In addition, MRT 3 had cost us $655M to build in 1999 but they always forget to add the subsidies, the guaranteed ROI, the interest payments and the unusable train BUT nothing to show for it. MRT 3 has sucked in billions of pesos from us with nothing to show.
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Old November 17th, 2017, 02:31 AM   #353
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I don`t think people aren`t actually reading or understanding my post.

1. BRT comparisons - Why would setting up BRT system in the PH be more than Canada? Why would it be way more than Jakarta's? That is something you should think about. I gave the link to all the cost of brt systems in the world. Do your math and comparisons.

$.75 b = $750 m @ 50/1 = $15 m per km. Am I wrong? Why would the BRT plan in Manila in the upper range of of the list in the link I posted before.

For comparison, Jakarta built a BRT line for $2 m per km, a Canadian city at $5 m per km. So what makes this BRT so special? Why would do you need to pay ROW for stations? BRTs are on public roads, and the stations are on public properties, the stations are not airport departure lounges or malls. BRT designs do not include bike paths. This is more like features of a property development rather mass transit. The cost of the BRT proposal is more on the icing than on the cake itself.

With $1 b ODA from Korea, you can expand the coverage the BRT coverage in Metro Manila, from 46 km to 200 km if the cost per kilometre goes down to $ 5 m per km. For those who are taking this seriously, not emotionally, what can you do for $5 m or P250 m per km in Metro Manila?

2. MRT 3 - This is not the rail thread but since we're at this let me point out.

MRT 3 is a lost cause, I think most of us agree on that. The gov't has lost a lot of money on that over the years, more so the commuters, including that poor girl who lost her arm in an accident in Ayala station.

MRT 3 was built with capacity projected for 400,000 riders; the most in one day was 650,000. They can stretch it to 800,000. The Dalian trains are no help because they are spending capital costs just to accommodate them. How much more capital investments will the gov't pour into it when the concession ends to make it stretch to 800,000?

3. Subway - The gov't is spending $8 b for a subway, with expected max capacity/demand of 550,000 for 10 years (I don't believe Sec Tugades press release.) Why not put that money into EDSA instead? Why are people against putting top of the line subway on that line instead of carrying on with a carcass?

a. Expected demand and capacity for an EDSA subway is 1.2 m, that would add 700,000 more to the rail system capacity, 200,000 more than what the current subway alignment will, and 400,000 more than the max cap at MRT 3. It is also the principal artery of the city that connects north and south, the lifeline of Manila.

b. The gov't can cut its losses on MRT 3 with its hao siao agreements with the private developer, and forget about putting more capital investments on it after the concession runs out by not extending its life.

My conclusion is that they're borrowing $ 9 b for subway and BRT but they're not maximizing or stretching output/delivery/coverage in Metro Manila. They're connecting developments with higher than average income and ignoring the areas with the highest density with who do need it most.
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Old November 17th, 2017, 02:02 PM   #354
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with the recent eventS with MRT3 (with wagons detaching from the trainset etc), I think it is time for a stop gap measure and I see BRT as an immediate solution.

all they need for the mean time is a separate road for the system so it can be called BRT. and use the existing bus lane for the mean time while they build a proper BRT system using the inner lanes.

MRT is so scary now. without proper maintenance, it is bound to kill one of these days. BRT is not a question of whether it is appropriate or not for EDSA now. it is a matter of safety issue now. I think BRT is necessary even only its short term.i don't know if sumitomo can do its job the soonest.
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Old November 17th, 2017, 05:10 PM   #355
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@SWStars

1. You're also not getting my point. BRT and L/MRT will still require infrastructure to be built. If not, then why do all other BRTs have cost in the first place. What I was trying to point out was your flawed comparison of trying to do a witless and simplistic black and white cost difference between systems - and instantly determining that one project is unnecessarily costlier.

It's either you don't understand how to actually do the above (which is most likely not the case - since you said that you had experience), or from my previous comment: "you only question things that you want to point out based on the situation you would want to picture."

2. Your statement still does not provide any new details. The point still stands; there are no concrete plans by the gov to either extend MRT-3 beyond 2025 or to replace it (and with what).

3. Another idealistic comment. I highly doubt that the subway project will be changed - especially now that they are in too deep with it. Considering as well that not only EDSA needs a mass transit system.
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Old November 18th, 2017, 05:22 PM   #356
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S_W_Stars is actually correct that much of the BRT route does not serve the "masses", most of which live in shanties or in the suburbs of Bulacan, Rizal, Cavity, and Laguna. If the government really wants to make a real dent in the traffic situation, it should have extended the lines way out into areas where people actually live. This way, low- and middle-income workers could actually take advantage of the benefits that BRTs could offer--make their commute from A to B more comfortable. By only building the BRT to the airport, to business districts, and along EDSA, they are simply worsening the traffic congestion since BRTs would still have to compete with private vehicles (from people living in Metro Manila's ever-expanding suburbs). I mean, these areas are often the DESTINATIONS of people, not their PLACES OF ORIGIN. This is akin to building a beautiful mall without any way to get inside.

Now, the main issue. MRT should be repaired, its passenger capacity maximized, and its length extended if we are to see the BRT to be of any help. Because, whether you like or not, BRTs simply cannot replace the sheer passenger capacity that the MRT could offer (in its most ideal state).

If the government simply adds more BRT buses (without addressing the underlying issues caused by an excessive number of private vehicles and the severely overtaxed MRT system), then the traffic congestion would simply not improve since the constant in this equation is the throughput of EDSA. The independent variable is the maximum capacity of both the MRT and the BRT. And the dependent variable is the number of people moved by the entire system (both EDSA and MRT).


Last edited by Kenjigraphics; November 18th, 2017 at 06:07 PM.
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