London's Transport Infrastructure

[mackenziesoley]

Originally Posted by Jon10

There IS an increase in capacity from Finsbury Park to Alexandra Palace and the Bowes Park line, soon, isn't there?

Not that much until KO2 of Thameslink kicks in. Idea is more trains Moorgate to Hertford North branch with Thameslink replacing the Welwyn trains. Until the link between GN and TL along with London Bride are completed, there isn't capacity to put them south of Finsbury Park.

[RBRJ]

Originally Posted by Tubeman

Have you got any source? Can't find anything online alluding to a serious proposal... need to know whether it qualifies for the atlas or not.

Sorry, I came across this in a report following links on the history of Lea Bridge Station. I beleive the report issued from London Overground. The other item of interest that was in the report, was that Angel Road (Meridian Water) as it was called, was to be intensively developed as a "proper town centre", which suggests that the development is to pay Lea Bridge and Pickett's Lock.

Further research into the matter of the interconnectiveness of Lea Bridge and Hall Farm Curve is that LB is the priority in getting up-and-running. The sticking problem on the latter, is that where the Chiltern line crosses the Chingford - Stratford line, is Coppermill Junction. There is no station, or interchange and this seems to be the reason for it being held back.

[State of London]

Originally Posted by RBRJ

And in 2020 a new station at Pickett's Lock.

There is a story,that shortly after Lea Bridge station is up and running, that the Hall Farm Curve is to be reactivated. This will enable a Chingford - Stratford line. They are looking at four new stations once the curve has been reinstalled.

Will Chingford-London Liverpool Street services be diverted via Stratford

[State of London]

Originally Posted by Sesquip

Then you have lost any advantage of re-using existing infrastructure and may as well build a new line without closing an existing service for many years. Any plan to re-use the NCL has to take account of the tunnels and the majority of the platforms as they are.

The problem is that the NCL Tunnels are too small and the platforms are too short to be useful for anything other than what it can cope with

Originally Posted by Sesquip

It's surrounded by flat junctions on multiple lines, some of which do not call at the station. It's a capacity bottleneck for the whole network in that area. You can't send a high-frequency metro on any of the tracks through/near that station.

Fair enough...

[cle]

Originally Posted by State of London

Will Chingford-London Liverpool Street services be diverted via Stratford

This has been spoken about - but I think more by those on here and other websites than those in charge.

It makes sense - Crossrail will free up several paths per hour out of Liverpool Street, which can't easily run on the fast main lines as they're practically full.

The West Anglia line is apparently full as well. But the Stratford WA and Overground platforms and lines are not. Therefore if Chingfords ran via Stratford, it would provide connectivity there, and also allow additional West Anglia services. The time penalty wouldn't be huge - timetables allow 15-16 mins to St James St. Liverpool St to Stratford is 8 mins, so another 7-8 to St James with a stop at Lea Bridge is feasible.

I'd use the capacity to intensify the Enfield Town/western Cheshunt route, which is densely populated, but people seem obsessed with the desolate Lea Valley!

[State of London]

Originally Posted by cle

This has been spoken about - but I think more by those on here and other websites than those in charge.

It makes sense - Crossrail will free up several paths per hour out of Liverpool Street, which can't easily run on the fast main lines as they're practically full.

The West Anglia line is apparently full as well. But the Stratford WA and Overground platforms and lines are not. Therefore if Chingfords ran via Stratford, it would provide connectivity there, and also allow additional West Anglia services. The time penalty wouldn't be huge - timetables allow 15-16 mins to St James St. Liverpool St to Stratford is 8 mins, so another 7-8 to St James with a stop at Lea Bridge is feasible.

I agree...

Originally Posted by cle

I'd use the capacity to intensify the Enfield Town/western Cheshunt route, which is densely populated, but people seem obsessed with the desolate Lea Valley!

Maybe because of the potental for regeneration.

Personally (consdering I use the route to Enfield Town/Cheshunt) the frequency is rather low and could be higher to really make the line work, prehaps they will do all this with Crossrail 2...

[cle]

Nope they will tunnel under it and ignore the stretch between Dalston and Seven Sisters.

Regeneration is becoming the new diversity - a catch-all word used to justify expenditure or investment for the sake of a cause. But it doesn't necessarily mean anything.

Why 'regenerate' the underpopulated, industrial nothingness, retail parks and reservoirs of the Upper Lea Valley, when you could also invest in the highly populated, underserved and fairly deprived areas of Stamford Hill, Edmonton and Enfield - in addition to the professionals and hipsters of Stoke Newington.

It's ridiculous TPTB only ever focus on new and theoretical, rather than extant deprivation and incumbent population.

[State of London]

Originally Posted by cle

Nope they will tunnel under it and ignore the stretch between Dalston and Seven Sisters.

To be honest Crossrail 2 has nothing to do with the London Liverpool Street-Enfield Town services.

What do you suggest should be done about it?

Originally Posted by cle

Regeneration is becoming the new diversity - a catch-all word used to justify expenditure or investment for the sake of a cause. But it doesn't necessarily mean anything.

Why 'regenerate' the underpopulated, industrial nothingness, retail parks and reservoirs of the Upper Lea Valley, when you could also invest in the highly populated, underserved and fairly deprived areas of Stamford Hill, Edmonton and Enfield - in addition to the professionals and hipsters of Stoke Newington.

It's ridiculous TPTB only ever focus on new and theoretical, rather than extant deprivation and incumbent population.

The Upper Lee Valley is one of the few low density areas left in Greater London really

But I agree that Stamford Hill, Edmonton and Enfield need regeneration, most of all Edmonton (An area which I visit quite a lot...).

[jake-potato]

Originally Posted by Sesquip

Good luck pushing the NCL through to Cannon Street! There's a lot of tunnels in the way. You'd have to build an all-new station at Moorgate, with lower platforms to avoid the Crossrail link passages and much more circulation space to handle a 30tph intensive metro, and then somehow thread your way past/under/through the Bank station complex.

You can't go further north than East Finchley. The Northern line needs the track.

The choice of Southern route is tricky, as you need to have sole use of the tracks to make the high frequency work. That would mean running all the way out to Slade Green if you're going to Greenwich. It also means a tunnel portal somewhere, and a long gap between stations (3.5 miles Deptford to Cannon Street). Depending on when you get underground, you might consider Jubilee interchange at Bermondsey.

Regardless, the top branch of the Dartford Lines is the least worst of the three to take over. You don't want to touch Lewisham with a barge pole as the tracks and junctions are a terrible mess. So maybe just go as far as Westcombe Park on that Northerly branch? There's space beyond the station for turnback facilities.

But it's the situation at Moorgate, and the tangle of tunnels between there and the river that really hamper any Southwards extension of the line.

I haven’t seen a cross-section of Moorgate station, but presumably the present assets could be recycled to incorporate new platforms and circulation space, even if it meant a deviation around the Crossrail infrastructure at Moorgate. Also looking at the map you provided (http://carto.metro.free.fr/cartes/metro-tram-london/), there would appear to be plenty of space to curve around the Bank station complex and construct platforms to the western end of the Circle & District Line platforms.

I also recall reading somewhere on this forum that the present route between both Finchley stations was capable of handling four tracks, but that the route was partially over-grown; the main hurdle being some housing development that has encroached upon the tracks east of Mill Hill Broadway. I was under the impression that Crossrail would at some point take over the tracks due west of Abbey Wood towards Dartford. In which case, the line via Greenwich would terminate at Abbey Wood to avoid conflict with Crossrail services?

A potential site for a tunnel portal could be between Tower Bridge Road and Abbey Street. The line would then take over two of the tracks (http://carto.metro.free.fr/cartes/metro-tram-london/) that currently head into London Bridge, thereby allowing for the re-opening of presently inactive stations at Spa Road and Southwark Park, and greatly increasing heavy rail connectivity in this deprived area of south-east London.

Again, all hypothetical, but it would tie in present infrastructure, require little effort, at a subdued cost, whilst maximise regeneration in several areas.

[johnb78]

Remember, the stuff that's underground in the City isn't solely tube lines. You've got all the actual station tunnelling at Monument/Bank, water, sewage, basements, foundations, and the vaults of the Bank of England in the way.

[LondonerMiles]

Quick question, why was the Hotel Curve route of the Widened Lines not used as part of Thameslink in the 1980s?

[sotonsi]

Originally Posted by LondonerMiles

Quick question, why was the Hotel Curve route of the Widened Lines not used as part of Thameslink in the 1980s?

Both the Hotel Curve and the York Road curve closed in 1976. This was due to the GN&C taking those trains that would have used the link to Moorgate in a quicker fashion.

I think that in the late 80s when the cross-river services began, I imagine that pathing was an issue: just like how currently the Canal Road tunnels, that perform the link but with less tight curves, steep inclines and non-H&S-compliant platforms are just sitting there waiting.

[Vulcan's Finest]

Originally Posted by LondonerMiles

Quick question, why was the Hotel Curve route of the Widened Lines not used as part of Thameslink in the 1980s?

Far too small for electric trains using overhead wires. Pretty tight even for 57ft mk1 suburban stock.