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Old July 12th, 2007, 01:19 PM   #3001
Pinoy_ako
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Originally Posted by arnold_carl View Post


nice photos, nakit-an man namo si Mark ganiha sa Basilica..

Anyway, archaeologue bai, can you give us more info about the plan to convert Compania Maritima into a museum? katu imo gisulti ganiha ba, I wasn't able to ask more questions from you, murag na mental block ko..

And by the way guys (pirena, pinoy_ako, et al) if you happen to drop by the Cathedral, you'll notice that there are ruins beside it (pillars), these are the remains diay of an earlier attempt to construct a cathedral which unfortunately was unfinished. Did I get this right @ang_bantayanon? Hehehe...

The ruins go all the way to the back, meaning it runs almost the length of the existing church itself.

I thought before that this was the baptistry or perhaps an old rectory or what..


Satellite Photo Below (the yellow dots indicate where the ruins are):





The cathedral with the domed structure (a baptistry?):
It's nice to know that they preserved the ruins. Maybe, documents will be unearthed that would further explain these ruins. From the size, which spans the length of the Cathedral, I suppose it might have been a rectory that encloses a patio. Just a conjecture

Based on the number of burials in Cebu, the front patio of the Cathedral may also yield burials since these places were the cemeteries during the Spanish period.

Archaeolog,

Thanks for such a nice documentary.
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Old July 12th, 2007, 01:19 PM   #3002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnold_carl View Post


nice photos, nakit-an man namo si Mark ganiha sa Basilica..

Anyway, archaeologue bai, can you give us more info about the plan to convert Compania Maritima into a museum? katu imo gisulti ganiha ba, I wasn't able to ask more questions from you, murag na mental block ko..

And by the way guys (pirena, pinoy_ako, et al) if you happen to drop by the Cathedral, you'll notice that there are ruins beside it (pillars), these are the remains diay of an earlier attempt to construct a cathedral which unfortunately was unfinished. Did I get this right @ang_bantayanon? Hehehe...

The ruins go all the way to the back, meaning it runs almost the length of the existing church itself.

I thought before that this was the baptistry or perhaps an old rectory or what..


Satellite Photo Below (the yellow dots indicate where the ruins are):





The cathedral with the domed structure (a baptistry?):
It's nice to know that they preserved the ruins. Maybe, documents will be unearthed that would further explain these ruins. From the size, which spans the length of the Cathedral, I suppose it might have been a rectory that encloses a patio. Just a conjecture

Based on the number of burials in Cebu, the front patio of the Cathedral may also yield burials since these places were the cemeteries during the Spanish period.

Archaeolog,

Thanks for such a nice documentary.
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Old July 12th, 2007, 01:30 PM   #3003
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Originally Posted by arnold_carl View Post


Naay ni explain sa ako ana bro.. At first I was confused too.

Pero sakto daw na, pero kalimot sad ko sa explaination, hehehe..

Paging ang_bantayanon, hehehehe//
although cebu was elevated as archdiocese in 1934, only three persons hold the the office of the archbishop of cebu, namely:

gabriel reyes 1934-1949
julio rosales 1949-1982
ricardo vidal 1982 - present

one should make clear between the titles/rank of and office held by a cleric in the roman catholic church. manuel salvador was elevated to the rank of archbishop, but he never held the office of the archbishop of cebu. his official function was co-adjutor archbishop, in church terms, he has the right of succession if the archbishop dies or incapacitated. he could have been the archbishop of cebu after cardinal rosales, because he was already co-adjutor archbishop since 1973. unfortunately, the pope appointed ricardo vidal as co-adjutor archbishop (with the first priority of succession) just before card. rosales retired. this cebuano from dalaguete remianed coadjutor archbishop until his tragic death in naga in 1996. for more info about bishops and dioceses in the philippines, check this site: http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/country/ph.html
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Old July 12th, 2007, 01:30 PM   #3004
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Originally Posted by arnold_carl View Post


Naay ni explain sa ako ana bro.. At first I was confused too.

Pero sakto daw na, pero kalimot sad ko sa explaination, hehehe..

Paging ang_bantayanon, hehehehe//
although cebu was elevated as archdiocese in 1934, only three persons hold the the office of the archbishop of cebu, namely:

gabriel reyes 1934-1949
julio rosales 1949-1982
ricardo vidal 1982 - present

one should make clear between the titles/rank of and office held by a cleric in the roman catholic church. manuel salvador was elevated to the rank of archbishop, but he never held the office of the archbishop of cebu. his official function was co-adjutor archbishop, in church terms, he has the right of succession if the archbishop dies or incapacitated. he could have been the archbishop of cebu after cardinal rosales, because he was already co-adjutor archbishop since 1973. unfortunately, the pope appointed ricardo vidal as co-adjutor archbishop (with the first priority of succession) just before card. rosales retired. this cebuano from dalaguete remianed coadjutor archbishop until his tragic death in naga in 1996. for more info about bishops and dioceses in the philippines, check this site: http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/country/ph.html

Last edited by gee; July 12th, 2007 at 01:41 PM.
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Old July 12th, 2007, 02:38 PM   #3005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southernbelle View Post
Paging @ Ang_Bantayanon, is this Bishop Agurto?

(Sorry for the size of the pictures hehehe...ambot ngano nikuyos man ni oi. I will ask my brother to take another set of pictures and reset his camera )






Southernbelle, yes, that is exactly Bishop Pedro de Agurto.. That is ahuge portait found in the sala of the Augustinian convent in Cebu.. Agurto's remains were also buried in the basilica long before it was renovated in 1734.

Arnold, I think Bishop Salvador became an archbishop in an archdiocese in Mindanao before he was reassigned in Cebu as co-adjutor archbishop. Gee is right that Cebu still has three archbishops.. I guess the reason why the title archbishop was placed on Salvador's tombstone is that he was indeed an archbishop although co-adjutor lang.. My mind got mixed up last time regarding co-adjutor and auxiliary.

Who could be Vidal's successor? That is a question that should interest us most... For one thing, his successor would also be a prince of the church, a cardinal that is... Is there anyone capable of such an honor today?

Last edited by Ang_Bantayanon; July 12th, 2007 at 02:45 PM.
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Old July 12th, 2007, 02:38 PM   #3006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southernbelle View Post
Paging @ Ang_Bantayanon, is this Bishop Agurto?

(Sorry for the size of the pictures hehehe...ambot ngano nikuyos man ni oi. I will ask my brother to take another set of pictures and reset his camera )






Southernbelle, yes, that is exactly Bishop Pedro de Agurto.. That is ahuge portait found in the sala of the Augustinian convent in Cebu.. Agurto's remains were also buried in the basilica long before it was renovated in 1734.

Arnold, I think Bishop Salvador became an archbishop in an archdiocese in Mindanao before he was reassigned in Cebu as co-adjutor archbishop. Gee is right that Cebu still has three archbishops.. I guess the reason why the title archbishop was placed on Salvador's tombstone is that he was indeed an archbishop although co-adjutor lang.. My mind got mixed up last time regarding co-adjutor and auxiliary.

Who could be Vidal's successor? That is a question that should interest us most... For one thing, his successor would also be a prince of the church, a cardinal that is... Is there anyone capable of such an honor today?
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Old July 12th, 2007, 03:52 PM   #3007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ang_Bantayanon View Post
Arnold, I think Bishop Salvador became an archbishop in an archdiocese in Mindanao before he was reassigned in Cebu as co-adjutor archbishop. Gee is right that Cebu still has three archbishops.. I guess the reason why the title archbishop was placed on Salvador's tombstone is that he was indeed an archbishop although co-adjutor lang.. My mind got mixed up last time regarding co-adjutor and auxiliary.

Who could be Vidal's successor? That is a question that should interest us most... For one thing, his successor would also be a prince of the church, a cardinal that is... Is there anyone capable of such an honor today?
salvador was the bishop of palo before he was transferred to cebu. check his profile: http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/bishop/bsalvm.html

it was teofilo camomot who was coadjutor archbishop of cagayan de oro. check his profile: http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/bishop/bcamomot.html

the difference lies on the right of succession. co-adjutor has the right to succed, while auxiliary does not have. if a (arch)bishop retires, resigns, dies or is incapacitated his coadjutor automatically assumes office.

regarding vidal's successor - it's hard to speculate as of the moment especially card. rosales of manila is also retiring in august. check: http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/country/bph75.html. the pope has to consider who goes to manila and cebu.
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Old July 12th, 2007, 03:52 PM   #3008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ang_Bantayanon View Post
Arnold, I think Bishop Salvador became an archbishop in an archdiocese in Mindanao before he was reassigned in Cebu as co-adjutor archbishop. Gee is right that Cebu still has three archbishops.. I guess the reason why the title archbishop was placed on Salvador's tombstone is that he was indeed an archbishop although co-adjutor lang.. My mind got mixed up last time regarding co-adjutor and auxiliary.

Who could be Vidal's successor? That is a question that should interest us most... For one thing, his successor would also be a prince of the church, a cardinal that is... Is there anyone capable of such an honor today?
salvador was the bishop of palo before he was transferred to cebu. check his profile: http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/bishop/bsalvm.html

it was teofilo camomot who was coadjutor archbishop of cagayan de oro. check his profile: http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/bishop/bcamomot.html

the difference lies on the right of succession. co-adjutor has the right to succed, while auxiliary does not have. if a (arch)bishop retires, resigns, dies or is incapacitated his coadjutor automatically assumes office.

regarding vidal's successor - it's hard to speculate as of the moment especially card. rosales of manila is also retiring in august. check: http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/country/bph75.html. the pope has to consider who goes to manila and cebu.
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Old July 12th, 2007, 04:01 PM   #3009
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what's the probability that these burials pre-date the coming of the augustinians? coz another possibilty is that the church ground was used as burial site or cemetery by the first christians of boljoon. this practice was common in medieval europe and the spanish augustinians could have introduced this practice. just some wild thoughts!
hi gee, the evidence is very clear that these burials pre-date the Spanish conquest...the orientation and burial practices exhibited by the inhumations are clearly pre-Hispanic...which is why we excavated on this site...but no, i do not think this is a cemetery...rather, these are probably a confirmation of the early Spanish missionary accounts that Bisayans buried their dead underneath or near their houses....and so what we have here may very well be habitation sites, or if large enough, a settlement site.

there is another archaeological site on a Spanish-era church that yielded so many burials...this was the Sta. Anan Church in Manila, which had burials accompanied by Chinese tradeware ceramics dating to the Yuan dynasty (13th-14th c.) and gold jewelry...the excavations were made in 1968...and the conclusion there was that they were not interred in a cemetery but were buried underneath houses...

the ceramic dish we found in February is tentatively dated to the early 16th century...around the time of Magellan, which clearly pre-dates the coming of Augustinian missionaries...also, the grave accompaniments in the form of broken earthenware pottery, some with decorated necks and bodies, are obviously pre-Christian as this and other practices were frowned upon by the missionaries as satanic.
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Old July 12th, 2007, 04:01 PM   #3010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gee View Post
what's the probability that these burials pre-date the coming of the augustinians? coz another possibilty is that the church ground was used as burial site or cemetery by the first christians of boljoon. this practice was common in medieval europe and the spanish augustinians could have introduced this practice. just some wild thoughts!
hi gee, the evidence is very clear that these burials pre-date the Spanish conquest...the orientation and burial practices exhibited by the inhumations are clearly pre-Hispanic...which is why we excavated on this site...but no, i do not think this is a cemetery...rather, these are probably a confirmation of the early Spanish missionary accounts that Bisayans buried their dead underneath or near their houses....and so what we have here may very well be habitation sites, or if large enough, a settlement site.

there is another archaeological site on a Spanish-era church that yielded so many burials...this was the Sta. Anan Church in Manila, which had burials accompanied by Chinese tradeware ceramics dating to the Yuan dynasty (13th-14th c.) and gold jewelry...the excavations were made in 1968...and the conclusion there was that they were not interred in a cemetery but were buried underneath houses...

the ceramic dish we found in February is tentatively dated to the early 16th century...around the time of Magellan, which clearly pre-dates the coming of Augustinian missionaries...also, the grave accompaniments in the form of broken earthenware pottery, some with decorated necks and bodies, are obviously pre-Christian as this and other practices were frowned upon by the missionaries as satanic.
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Old July 12th, 2007, 04:29 PM   #3011
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nice updates....

welcome archaeologue...
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Old July 12th, 2007, 04:29 PM   #3012
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nice updates....

welcome archaeologue...
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Old July 12th, 2007, 05:46 PM   #3013
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Originally Posted by archaeologue View Post
hi gee, the evidence is very clear that these burials pre-date the Spanish conquest...the orientation and burial practices exhibited by the inhumations are clearly pre-Hispanic...which is why we excavated on this site...but no, i do not think this is a cemetery...rather, these are probably a confirmation of the early Spanish missionary accounts that Bisayans buried their dead underneath or near their houses....and so what we have here may very well be habitation sites, or if large enough, a settlement site.

there is another archaeological site on a Spanish-era church that yielded so many burials...this was the Sta. Anan Church in Manila, which had burials accompanied by Chinese tradeware ceramics dating to the Yuan dynasty (13th-14th c.) and gold jewelry...the excavations were made in 1968...and the conclusion there was that they were not interred in a cemetery but were buried underneath houses...

the ceramic dish we found in February is tentatively dated to the early 16th century...around the time of Magellan, which clearly pre-dates the coming of Augustinian missionaries...also, the grave accompaniments in the form of broken earthenware pottery, some with decorated necks and bodies, are obviously pre-Christian as this and other practices were frowned upon by the missionaries as satanic.
thanks for the explanation ... btw, what happened to the excavations in alegria?
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Old July 12th, 2007, 05:46 PM   #3014
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Originally Posted by archaeologue View Post
hi gee, the evidence is very clear that these burials pre-date the Spanish conquest...the orientation and burial practices exhibited by the inhumations are clearly pre-Hispanic...which is why we excavated on this site...but no, i do not think this is a cemetery...rather, these are probably a confirmation of the early Spanish missionary accounts that Bisayans buried their dead underneath or near their houses....and so what we have here may very well be habitation sites, or if large enough, a settlement site.

there is another archaeological site on a Spanish-era church that yielded so many burials...this was the Sta. Anan Church in Manila, which had burials accompanied by Chinese tradeware ceramics dating to the Yuan dynasty (13th-14th c.) and gold jewelry...the excavations were made in 1968...and the conclusion there was that they were not interred in a cemetery but were buried underneath houses...

the ceramic dish we found in February is tentatively dated to the early 16th century...around the time of Magellan, which clearly pre-dates the coming of Augustinian missionaries...also, the grave accompaniments in the form of broken earthenware pottery, some with decorated necks and bodies, are obviously pre-Christian as this and other practices were frowned upon by the missionaries as satanic.
thanks for the explanation ... btw, what happened to the excavations in alegria?
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Old July 12th, 2007, 06:26 PM   #3015
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Thanks for the explanation Gee..


Quote:
Who could be Vidal's successor? That is a question that should interest us most... For one thing, his successor would also be a prince of the church, a cardinal that is... Is there anyone capable of such an honor today?
It was just in the news a while ago that Cardinal Vidal really wants to retire. The cardinal is also hoping that his successor will be someone who is "young."

Bishop John Du could be a good candidate, hehe..


..
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Old July 12th, 2007, 06:26 PM   #3016
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Thanks for the explanation Gee..


Quote:
Who could be Vidal's successor? That is a question that should interest us most... For one thing, his successor would also be a prince of the church, a cardinal that is... Is there anyone capable of such an honor today?
It was just in the news a while ago that Cardinal Vidal really wants to retire. The cardinal is also hoping that his successor will be someone who is "young."

Bishop John Du could be a good candidate, hehe..


..

Last edited by LordCarnal; July 12th, 2007 at 06:39 PM.
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Old July 12th, 2007, 06:42 PM   #3017
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Originally Posted by Jarenz View Post
nice updates....

welcome archaeologue...
thanks, Jarenz..glad to be on board
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Old July 12th, 2007, 06:42 PM   #3018
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Originally Posted by Jarenz View Post
nice updates....

welcome archaeologue...
thanks, Jarenz..glad to be on board
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Old July 12th, 2007, 06:53 PM   #3019
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Originally Posted by Ang_Bantayanon View Post
Southernbelle, yes, that is exactly Bishop Pedro de Agurto.. That is ahuge portait found in the sala of the Augustinian convent in Cebu.. Agurto's remains were also buried in the basilica long before it was renovated in 1734.
Masaao Nishimura, one of my professors in archaeology, did his Univ of Michigan dissertation on 12th-14th c. trading networks in Cebu..he carried out excavations in many parts of old Cebu City, including the patio of the Basilica sometime in 1984-85. If I recall correctly, he uncovered about three burials there which had clearly Hispanic features...they may have been Augustinian priests or one of them may have been Bishop de Agurto...The excavation also traced the foundations of a church built earlier than the one we find today...the foundations showed signs of extensive burning...
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Old July 12th, 2007, 06:53 PM   #3020
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Originally Posted by Ang_Bantayanon View Post
Southernbelle, yes, that is exactly Bishop Pedro de Agurto.. That is ahuge portait found in the sala of the Augustinian convent in Cebu.. Agurto's remains were also buried in the basilica long before it was renovated in 1734.
Masaao Nishimura, one of my professors in archaeology, did his Univ of Michigan dissertation on 12th-14th c. trading networks in Cebu..he carried out excavations in many parts of old Cebu City, including the patio of the Basilica sometime in 1984-85. If I recall correctly, he uncovered about three burials there which had clearly Hispanic features...they may have been Augustinian priests or one of them may have been Bishop de Agurto...The excavation also traced the foundations of a church built earlier than the one we find today...the foundations showed signs of extensive burning...
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