search the site
 daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Asian Forums > Philippine Forums > Around the Philippines > Transport, Urban Planning and Infrastructure > Railways



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old May 18th, 2017, 12:19 PM   #13161
itsMRT2
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 108
Likes (Received): 92

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1100 View Post
Tumama naman si USec. Chavez dun sa isa nyang statement.
Hit or miss nga lang, worse nakaupo siya di niya alam? No wonder napagalitan sila sa hearing kasi di niya alam kilos ng mga galamay niya sa DOTC-MRT3. Kintanar-Chavez is another Roxas-Abaya all over again albeit in the usec level.
__________________
It's not "Light Rail Transit Line 2" or "LRT-2", It's "Mass Rail Transit Line 2" or "MRT-2"

#SaveMRT2
itsMRT2 no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old May 18th, 2017, 02:49 PM   #13162
baybum7
Registered User
 
baybum7's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Makati
Posts: 489
Likes (Received): 254

Quote:
Originally Posted by railway_engr View Post
Kwento ko nalang isa isa para mas madali nyong maintindihan nakakatamad kasi sagutin kayo isa isa hehehe

Yes totoo naman lahat ng sinasabi nyo na sa simula palang may mali na pero hindi naman lahat mali. Marami lang talagang hindi disclosed information dahil minsan wala din alam yung pinagtatanungan hehe.

I personally witnessed the delivery and testing or the 8MLB LRV's since September 2015 palang when LRV 3101 assembled in Line 1.

To clarify some issues, LRV 3101 also known as the "prototype" unit was intentionally delivered without its entire propulsion system to give defunct DOTC a look of what it actually look and this is also similar to the mock unit of the LRT 1's 1200 or 3G trains where they made a compact version of the actual unit.

So ano ba ang kwento?

CHAPTER 1: Delivery

* LRV 3101 was the prototype, the DOTC did not accepted unit since it is only a mock unit.

*So the CNR Dalian brought here the LRV 3102 or the complete and running version of 3101 since naging issue sa public na bakit walang makina at walang laman yung naunang dumating. This was also the unit used in the 5000 km test run.

* After testing, DOTC recommend to make some changes in the design and layout found in 3102, so they come up with LRV 3103 and 3104 A.K.A. Dalian LRV V2.0

* LRV 3105-3108 delivered in V2.0 configuration. LRV 3102 was also reprogrammed into V2.0 computer program. Later they reprogrammed again LRV 3102-3108 into V2.1 configuration. Alam to ni Happosai at ni 1101 hahaha.

* DOTC made changes again to the design, so LRV 3109-3130 delivered in V3.0 configuration.

* LRV 3131-3144 delivered in V3.1 configuration. Almost similar to V3.0 but has some tweaks.

* LRV 3145-3148 is the latest configuration V3.2 and the other 25 units are also reconfigure into V3.2 configuration except LRV 3101.

* LRV 3148 arrived in Port of Manila in December 28, 2016. Month earlier than the deadline.

* CRRC Dalian made contract with Bombardier to supply ATP system for the 8MLB fleet. Arrived in November 2016 and manufactured in Sweden.

*Bombardier upgraded the aging MAN900 system into EBI Screen 900 operating system in December 2016.

* LRV 3101 finally received its propulsion system and configured into 3.2.2 (syempre may pagkakaiba parin)


Lets go to the Testing story.

CHAPTER 2: Testing

* LRV 3102 was made as the reference for the 5000 km test run. They made the 5000 km test BUT INCOMPLETE due to the absence of the ATP system.

* LRV 3102-3108 was used for commercial test run authorized by former MRT GM Buenafe despite MRT 3 Rules & Regulation forbidding any train to run in the mainline WITHOUT ATP SYSTEM.

* LRV 3132, 3134, 3135, and 3136 was the 1st batch or 8MLB to receive ATP system and also used for the ATP's 1500 km test. The test commenced in February 2017.

* March 2017, the 8MLB ATP test failed due to irregular response. This event marks the grounding of all Dalian testing and deployment. About 70% of the test completed before stop.


----------------------------------------------------------------

Tinatamad nako mag type, hanapin nyo nalang yung mga irregularities hahaha

at FYI sa lahat, none of the 48 LRV's were commissioned since today. So all documents, LRVs, keys, operation, parts, and other related in the 8MLB is still in possession and property of the CRRC Dalian Ltd. Kapag hindi nagkasundo talagang literal na magiging useless ang mga Dalian LRV dahil walang makakapag power or operate ng mga ito except sa kanila.
So technically speaking, compatible yung physical train? And yung program for ATP and yung signaling yung hindi?
__________________

s_w_stars liked this post
baybum7 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 18th, 2017, 03:31 PM   #13163
s_w_stars
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 5,412
Likes (Received): 2790

Quote:
Originally Posted by railway_engr View Post
Kwento ko nalang isa isa para mas madali nyong maintindihan nakakatamad kasi sagutin kayo isa isa hehehe

Yes totoo naman lahat ng sinasabi nyo na sa simula palang may mali na pero hindi naman lahat mali. Marami lang talagang hindi disclosed information dahil minsan wala din alam yung pinagtatanungan hehe.

I personally witnessed the delivery and testing or the 8MLB LRV's since September 2015 palang when LRV 3101 assembled in Line 1.
In a nutshell, they gave us the trains/coaches but not THE trains/coaches that will run on the MRT3. And the man who signed the contract was Abaya whose objective was to get a deal done, making them run on the MRT line was just an afterthought. We can go on and on about what went wrong, but at the end it goes back to the contract between the buyer and the supplier.

In the end, what do you think the gov't should do? They need to move people, and I don't think the current DOTr wants to deal with that reality.

Btw., thanks for all that istorya.
__________________
"Traveling and sojourning among various people make men wise." - Cervantes

Last edited by s_w_stars; May 18th, 2017 at 03:58 PM.
s_w_stars no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 18th, 2017, 03:51 PM   #13164
1100
Meh
 
1100's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,126
Likes (Received): 509

Quote:
Originally Posted by itsMRT2 View Post
Hit or miss nga lang, worse nakaupo siya di niya alam? No wonder napagalitan sila sa hearing kasi di niya alam kilos ng mga galamay niya sa DOTC-MRT3. Kintanar-Chavez is another Roxas-Abaya all over again albeit in the usec level.
Kaya nga apprehensive ako na mapapasa kaagad yung emergency powers eh, hindi alam nung mga nakaupo yung ginagawa nila

Ibang level naman sina Roxas at Abaya
__________________
1100 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 18th, 2017, 03:58 PM   #13165
s_w_stars
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 5,412
Likes (Received): 2790

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1100 View Post
Kaya nga apprehensive ako na mapapasa kaagad yung emergency powers eh, hindi alam nung mga nakaupo yung ginagawa nila

Ibang level naman sina Roxas at Abaya
What can we say, clueless and bobo.
__________________
"Traveling and sojourning among various people make men wise." - Cervantes
s_w_stars no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 18th, 2017, 05:27 PM   #13166
kratos1211
Registered User
 
kratos1211's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,078
Likes (Received): 343

According to Engr Manalo 2 Dalian trains to be added this June, another false promise?



Source
__________________
IF YOU BUILD IT, THEY WILL COME

whatuwan liked this post
kratos1211 está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old May 18th, 2017, 05:49 PM   #13167
Magniko
Puti Puti DDS member
 
Magniko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 850
Likes (Received): 352

Unless there's a very good reason for why it can't be done sooner, the rail replacement should be completed much sooner than 2019
Magniko no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 19th, 2017, 04:35 AM   #13168
romyman
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Riyadh
Posts: 565
Likes (Received): 199

Quote:
Originally Posted by railway_engr View Post
Kwento ko nalang isa isa para mas madali nyong maintindihan nakakatamad kasi sagutin kayo isa isa hehehe

Yes totoo naman lahat ng sinasabi nyo na sa simula palang may mali na pero hindi naman lahat mali. Marami lang talagang hindi disclosed information dahil minsan wala din alam yung pinagtatanungan hehe.

I personally witnessed the delivery and testing or the 8MLB LRV's since September 2015 palang when LRV 3101 assembled in Line 1.

To clarify some issues, LRV 3101 also known as the "prototype" unit was intentionally delivered without its entire propulsion system to give defunct DOTC a look of what it actually look and this is also similar to the mock unit of the LRT 1's 1200 or 3G trains where they made a compact version of the actual unit.

So ano ba ang kwento?

CHAPTER 1: Delivery

* LRV 3101 was the prototype, the DOTC did not accepted unit since it is only a mock unit.

*So the CNR Dalian brought here the LRV 3102 or the complete and running version of 3101 since naging issue sa public na bakit walang makina at walang laman yung naunang dumating. This was also the unit used in the 5000 km test run.

* After testing, DOTC recommend to make some changes in the design and layout found in 3102, so they come up with LRV 3103 and 3104 A.K.A. Dalian LRV V2.0

* LRV 3105-3108 delivered in V2.0 configuration. LRV 3102 was also reprogrammed into V2.0 computer program. Later they reprogrammed again LRV 3102-3108 into V2.1 configuration. Alam to ni Happosai at ni 1101 hahaha.

* DOTC made changes again to the design, so LRV 3109-3130 delivered in V3.0 configuration.

* LRV 3131-3144 delivered in V3.1 configuration. Almost similar to V3.0 but has some tweaks.

* LRV 3145-3148 is the latest configuration V3.2 and the other 25 units are also reconfigure into V3.2 configuration except LRV 3101.

* LRV 3148 arrived in Port of Manila in December 28, 2016. Month earlier than the deadline.

* CRRC Dalian made contract with Bombardier to supply ATP system for the 8MLB fleet. Arrived in November 2016 and manufactured in Sweden.

*Bombardier upgraded the aging MAN900 system into EBI Screen 900 operating system in December 2016.

* LRV 3101 finally received its propulsion system and configured into 3.2.2 (syempre may pagkakaiba parin)


Lets go to the Testing story.

CHAPTER 2: Testing

* LRV 3102 was made as the reference for the 5000 km test run. They made the 5000 km test BUT INCOMPLETE due to the absence of the ATP system.

* LRV 3102-3108 was used for commercial test run authorized by former MRT GM Buenafe despite MRT 3 Rules & Regulation forbidding any train to run in the mainline WITHOUT ATP SYSTEM.

* LRV 3132, 3134, 3135, and 3136 was the 1st batch or 8MLB to receive ATP system and also used for the ATP's 1500 km test. The test commenced in February 2017.

* March 2017, the 8MLB ATP test failed due to irregular response. This event marks the grounding of all Dalian testing and deployment. About 70% of the test completed before stop.


----------------------------------------------------------------

Tinatamad nako mag type, hanapin nyo nalang yung mga irregularities hahaha

at FYI sa lahat, none of the 48 LRV's were commissioned since today. So all documents, LRVs, keys, operation, parts, and other related in the 8MLB is still in possession and property of the CRRC Dalian Ltd. Kapag hindi nagkasundo talagang literal na magiging useless ang mga Dalian LRV dahil walang makakapag power or operate ng mga ito except sa kanila.
Sa kwento mo pa lang RE kitang kita na kung ano problema sa Dalian Trains.. Di alam ng taga DOTR ang gusto nila kaya iterative or evolutionary ang pagproduce ng mga Trains.
romyman no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 19th, 2017, 05:38 AM   #13169
timothy2170
Sir
 
timothy2170's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Makati
Posts: 496
Likes (Received): 275

Quote:
Originally Posted by railway_engr View Post
at FYI sa lahat, none of the 48 LRV's were commissioned since today. So all documents, LRVs, keys, operation, parts, and other related in the 8MLB is still in possession and property of the CRRC Dalian Ltd. Kapag hindi nagkasundo talagang literal na magiging useless ang mga Dalian LRV dahil walang makakapag power or operate ng mga ito except sa kanila.
Sweet Jesus. Everything about it is a big pile of s***. Everyone at DOTr and MRT should feel like they're carrying this heavy burden and if I was there, I would definitely go bananas.
__________________
railfan, infrastructure advocate. instagram:timoedsel
timothy2170 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 19th, 2017, 07:15 AM   #13170
McMarco
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Tuguegarao City / Manila
Posts: 941
Likes (Received): 450

Quote:
Originally Posted by timothy2170 View Post
Sweet Jesus. Everything about it is a big pile of s***. Everyone at DOTr and MRT should feel like they're carrying this heavy burden and if I was there, I would definitely go bananas.
So basically we're being held hostage for the trains that we bought in China. Abaya is either crazy, stupid, ignorant or all of the above for purchasing these trains. And to think that they bought these trains from China when they could have sourced new trains somewhere else.
McMarco no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 19th, 2017, 11:11 AM   #13171
romyman
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Riyadh
Posts: 565
Likes (Received): 199

Quote:
Originally Posted by McMarco View Post
So basically we're being held hostage for the trains that we bought in China. Abaya is either crazy, stupid, ignorant or all of the above for purchasing these trains. And to think that they bought these trains from China when they could have sourced new trains somewhere else.
The purchase of Dalian Trains is a failed attempt by the DOTC (now DoTr) under Abaya to become a rolling stock provider by going directly to the OEM Dalian. Problem is the DOTC has no technical experience at all. Manufacturing rolling stocks is different from operating and maintaining them. That is the primary reason there are different versions of the Dalian LRV while in the midst of production.

The more serious issue as exposed by RE is the inconsistent test result of the ATP System manufactured by Bombardier. I can only surmise that the failures in real life will result in injuries or death
romyman no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 19th, 2017, 01:30 PM   #13172
itsMRT2
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 108
Likes (Received): 92

Some details from the research done by our team.

MRT-3 according to WB, Halcrow, JICA, and other international studies is rated poor due to the following:

> The BLT contract
> Design was cheap being business oriented instead of passenger one
> Station location was decided by the proponent instead of the government resulting into being located near businesses instead of ideal location
>No standard and specific regulatory Authority
> System choice is poor citing these factors:

MRT-3
>> Designed maximum crush capacity with all 3 Phases: 1,200,000 pax/day
>> Designed maximum PPhD with the smallest headway possible with all 3 Phases completed: 45,000 PPhD (4 car)
>> Smallest realistic headway possible: 2.5 minutes
>> Makati CBD alone according to the studies would increase PPhD to 60,000

Now for comparison

MRT-2
>> Designed maximum crush capacity for Recto-Santolan alone: around 2,000,000 pax/day (est.)
>> Designed maximum PPhD with smallest headway possible for Recto-Santolan alone: 60,000 PPhD (4 car)
>> Smallest realistic headway possible: 2 minutes

Thoughts?
__________________
It's not "Light Rail Transit Line 2" or "LRT-2", It's "Mass Rail Transit Line 2" or "MRT-2"

#SaveMRT2

s_w_stars liked this post
itsMRT2 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 19th, 2017, 03:32 PM   #13173
s_w_stars
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 5,412
Likes (Received): 2790

Quote:
Originally Posted by itsMRT2 View Post
Some details from the research done by our team.

MRT-3 according to WB, Halcrow, JICA, and other international studies is rated poor due to the following:

> The BLT contract
> Design was cheap being business oriented instead of passenger one
> Station location was decided by the proponent instead of the government resulting into being located near businesses instead of ideal location
>No standard and specific regulatory Authority
> System choice is poor citing these factors:

MRT-3
>> Designed maximum crush capacity with all 3 Phases: 1,200,000 pax/day
>> Designed maximum PPhD with the smallest headway possible with all 3 Phases completed: 45,000 PPhD (4 car)
>> Smallest realistic headway possible: 2.5 minutes
>> Makati CBD alone according to the studies would increase PPhD to 60,000

Now for comparison

MRT-2
>> Designed maximum crush capacity for Recto-Santolan alone: around 2,000,000 pax/day (est.)
>> Designed maximum PPhD with smallest headway possible for Recto-Santolan alone: 60,000 PPhD (4 car)
>> Smallest realistic headway possible: 2 minutes

Thoughts?
Thanks for sharing your studies. I highlighted my main comment which is "business oriented instead of passenger oriented". The objective is to move people within the city with more efficient modes of transpo which will have to take in consideration pop densities, route densities, and will determine distance between stations, headway etc. The "profit" motive (for the participating public sector) should follow that principle. This should be the philosophy behind all public transit infra projects.

Copyright your studies. If DOTr doesn't want to hear you out, then stage a coup and take over DOTr because the current crop of planners are bobo, incompetents.

Did you by any chance map out a system wide transit plan using google maps, drones to show how people from point A can get to point X,Y,Z using public transit, without using jeepneys, tricis, habal habal or smoke belching colorum buses?
__________________
"Traveling and sojourning among various people make men wise." - Cervantes

itsMRT2 liked this post
s_w_stars no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 19th, 2017, 03:37 PM   #13174
itsMRT2
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 108
Likes (Received): 92

Quote:
Originally Posted by s_w_stars View Post
Thanks for sharing your studies. I highlighted my main comment which is business oriented instead of passenger oriented. The objective is to move people within the city with more efficient modes of transpo which will have to take in consideration pop densities, route densities, distance between stations, headway etc in consideration.

Copyright your studies. If DOTr doesn't want to hear you out, then stage a coup and take over DOTr because the current crop of planners are bobo, incompetents.

Did you by any chance map out a system wide transit plan using google maps, drones to show how people from point A can get to point X,Y,Z using public transit, without using jeepneys, tricis, habal habal or smoke belching colorum buses?
Thanks. We wanted to clarify though that these are compilation of studies by international institutions such as WB, Halcrow, and JICA to name a few. As volunteers, resources limit us to this alone as we aim to present this at the height of the MRT-3 mess.

With regards to getting this across DOTr or any authority, we are already coordinating with both the senate and other agencies in aid of legislation.

P.S. expect a new infographic soon
__________________
It's not "Light Rail Transit Line 2" or "LRT-2", It's "Mass Rail Transit Line 2" or "MRT-2"

#SaveMRT2

s_w_stars liked this post
itsMRT2 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 19th, 2017, 08:11 PM   #13175
Magniko
Puti Puti DDS member
 
Magniko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 850
Likes (Received): 352

Quote:
Originally Posted by itsMRT2 View Post
Some details from the research done by our team.

MRT-3 according to WB, Halcrow, JICA, and other international studies is rated poor due to the following:

> The BLT contract
> Design was cheap being business oriented instead of passenger one
> Station location was decided by the proponent instead of the government resulting into being located near businesses instead of ideal location
>No standard and specific regulatory Authority
> System choice is poor citing these factors:

MRT-3
>> Designed maximum crush capacity with all 3 Phases: 1,200,000 pax/day
>> Designed maximum PPhD with the smallest headway possible with all 3 Phases completed: 45,000 PPhD (4 car)
>> Smallest realistic headway possible: 2.5 minutes
>> Makati CBD alone according to the studies would increase PPhD to 60,000

Now for comparison

MRT-2
>> Designed maximum crush capacity for Recto-Santolan alone: around 2,000,000 pax/day (est.)
>> Designed maximum PPhD with smallest headway possible for Recto-Santolan alone: 60,000 PPhD (4 car)
>> Smallest realistic headway possible: 2 minutes

Thoughts?
Did this study also cover what should be done to make it better?
Magniko no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 20th, 2017, 01:08 AM   #13176
Magniko
Puti Puti DDS member
 
Magniko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 850
Likes (Received): 352

Anyone ever experienced or witnessed pickpocketing or snatching on the Rail Tranits of Metro Manila?
Or are they fairly safe to have your phone out in?
Magniko no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 20th, 2017, 03:16 AM   #13177
itsMRT2
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 108
Likes (Received): 92

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magniko View Post
Did this study also cover what should be done to make it better?
Some of the studies recommended some solutions but only applicable as late as 2025. We are trying to have our own recommendation, but as volunteers, it would take awhile to reach a solid consensus on what to do.
__________________
It's not "Light Rail Transit Line 2" or "LRT-2", It's "Mass Rail Transit Line 2" or "MRT-2"

#SaveMRT2
itsMRT2 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 20th, 2017, 04:35 AM   #13178
McMarco
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Tuguegarao City / Manila
Posts: 941
Likes (Received): 450

Quote:
Originally Posted by itsMRT2 View Post
Some details from the research done by our team.

MRT-3 according to WB, Halcrow, JICA, and other international studies is rated poor due to the following:

> The BLT contract
> Design was cheap being business oriented instead of passenger one
> Station location was decided by the proponent instead of the government resulting into being located near businesses instead of ideal location
>No standard and specific regulatory Authority
> System choice is poor citing these factors:

MRT-3
>> Designed maximum crush capacity with all 3 Phases: 1,200,000 pax/day
>> Designed maximum PPhD with the smallest headway possible with all 3 Phases completed: 45,000 PPhD (4 car)
>> Smallest realistic headway possible: 2.5 minutes
>> Makati CBD alone according to the studies would increase PPhD to 60,000

Now for comparison

MRT-2
>> Designed maximum crush capacity for Recto-Santolan alone: around 2,000,000 pax/day (est.)
>> Designed maximum PPhD with smallest headway possible for Recto-Santolan alone: 60,000 PPhD (4 car)
>> Smallest realistic headway possible: 2 minutes

Thoughts?
The MRT-3 was a good idea but it was never designed for the benefit of the commuting public. The private consortium really got a lot of $$$ for this project and so did the administration who authorized the construction.
__________________

itsMRT2 liked this post
McMarco no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 20th, 2017, 04:38 AM   #13179
itsMRT2
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 108
Likes (Received): 92

Quote:
Originally Posted by McMarco View Post
The MRT-3 was a good idea but it was never designed for the benefit of the commuting public. The private consortium really got a lot of $$$ for this project and so did the administration who authorized the construction.
In short: initial intention was good, execution is bad
__________________
It's not "Light Rail Transit Line 2" or "LRT-2", It's "Mass Rail Transit Line 2" or "MRT-2"

#SaveMRT2
itsMRT2 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 20th, 2017, 05:43 AM   #13180
kratos1211
Registered User
 
kratos1211's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,078
Likes (Received): 343

The intention was always the $$$ by the consortium of Sobrepena, Ayala, Campos, NBS, Ramcar plus the quiet Pres Ramos who executed the BLT contract. They are laughing all the way to the bank.

I think the reason Gloria tried to integrate MRT3 to LRTA before was to have it run more efficiently, but that is all forgotten because of Aquino.
__________________
IF YOU BUILD IT, THEY WILL COME
kratos1211 está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote


Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 10:55 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

Hosted by Blacksun, dedicated to this site too!
Forum server management by DaiTengu