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Old February 12th, 2009, 09:33 PM   #121
Alemanniafan
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Originally Posted by GunnerJacket View Post
That's not what he/FIFA are saying. It's not a matter of simply covering the tracks, it's about having stands at closer distances to the pitch. Meaning - a venue not usable for general athletics. Bottom line, FIFA would like 7 of the 10 venues to be specifically designed for football/soccer and not for Olympic sports.
Yes, and that could and probably will be a serious problem for Indonesias bid.
But honestly not just for Indonesia, for a number of other countries especially in Asia, besides Japan, Korea and maybe China and in Afrika. So I seriously believe the Fifa will have to rethink their stadium requirements if they want worldcups not just to be hosted in the wealthy or western countries or in europe. Indonesia would in my opinion be a great host for a worldcup, even with runningtracks everywhere. and honestly running tracks don't matter much, if the spectators accept them and aren't bothered. Of course for soccer a pure soccer stadium would be preferred, and that's why the Fifa want's to enforce pure soccer stadia instead of multisport Arenas and those demands are Ok for stadia in Europe, North and South Amerika and Australia, but they surely are problematic for a large number of countries in Africa and Asia and if the Fifa want's to "export" soccer more into those continents, if they want to increase the popularity there, they'll have to cut back with some of their demands. And especially in the case of Indonesia for example the stadia are often quite or very modern and completely suitable for a worldcup. And if the only aspect is that they have too many stadia with running tracks, it would seem like a rather ridiculous demand and more like an excuse not to let Indonesia host a worldcup, but some european country instead. I believe if Indonesia fulfills all other demands well and would be a promising host, the Fifa seriously should and in fact even might reconsider their running track limitation demands. I could seriously immagine they will, because after South Africa and Brazil and Europe Indonesia would fit in just too perfectly, even without the official continent rotation principle. I believe in 2022 Indonesia will probably have a serious chance of winning the bid with these stadia shown here, in case the Fifa is seriously interested in having a host in Asia again, which they actually might, because the worldcup in Japan and Korea was quite successfull and sure did help increase the popularity of soccer in those countries and Asia in general. and if England, Spain/Portugal or the Be-Ne-Lux shoud win the bid in 2018, they won't have a european host right after that again, so Asias chances would go up. And unless China builds lots of new pure soccer stadia, Indonesia would probably be the nr.1 choice, despite of the running track issue.

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Old February 12th, 2009, 09:56 PM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alemanniafan View Post
...if the Fifa want's to "export" soccer more into those continents, if they want to increase the popularity there, they'll have to cut back with some of their demands. And especially in the case of Indonesia for example the stadia are often quite or very modern and completely suitable for a worldcup. And if the only aspect is that they have too many stadia with running tracks, it would seem like a rather ridiculous demand and more like an excuse not to let Indonesia host a worldcup, but some european country instead. I believe if Indonesia fulfills all other demands well and would be a promising host, the Fifa seriously should and in fact even might reconsider their running track limitation demands.
I'm going to politely disagree with your logic here and I'll tell you why.

Yes, FIFA wishes to expand the game's global impact and some fans may not mind being within athletics stadiums for soccer matches. But while you're implying that FIFA's requirements could be construed as too onerous I would turn that around and ask about the cost efficiency of general athletics venues. Maybe it's purely a US thing but it seems to me the global trend is that no nation needs that many large general athletic venues. Maybe two or three across major metro areas, but certainly not 12. FIFA's ideal vision would likely be 8 minimum capacity venues designed for soccer rather than a bunch of huge athletic venues, because the former is more likely to lend itself to local investment IN SOCCER. China, Indonesia and others might well have enough capacity to hold the WC in their athletic venues, but investment in true soccer stadiums will ensure the nations will continue investing in the sport after the games are over. Otherwise I doubt SA would've built as many purpose-built stadiums as they have, or at least not as grandiose.

So while this may seem as being too much for FIFA to ask, it could also be viewed as acceptable minimum standards FIFA's should expect from any nation seriously investing in the game. Otherwise it brings into question the host nation's true level of support for soccer. If Indonesia (or any bidder) is truly invested in the game, interested in hosting the WC and has money to invest, then surely FIFA should expect something dedicated to the game much moreso than a fleet of general athletic stadiums. Shouldn't they?
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Old February 13th, 2009, 12:51 AM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GunnerJacket View Post
I'm going to politely disagree with your logic here and I'll tell you why.

Yes, FIFA wishes to expand the game's global impact and some fans may not mind being within athletics stadiums for soccer matches.

...

So while this may seem as being too much for FIFA to ask, it could also be viewed as acceptable minimum standards FIFA's should expect from any nation seriously investing in the game. Otherwise it brings into question the host nation's true level of support for soccer. If Indonesia (or any bidder) is truly invested in the game, interested in hosting the WC and has money to invest, then surely FIFA should expect something dedicated to the game much moreso than a fleet of general athletic stadiums. Shouldn't they?
I agree with your argument to some extend, but there are several examples for large Soccer events where the Fifa or Uefa requirements are simply just questionable. And the same applies to several olympic stadiums also actually, that just are too big after the games for any reasonable use.
The last big soccer event was the European Cup in Austria and Switzerland. And the Uefa requirements in that case were met with a few enlargements in several stadiums. In one case the Tivoli stadium in Insbruck 30 mio euros were spend to enlarge the stadiums capacity from 17.400 (as all seater 15.200) to 30.277 seats for three(!!!) Cup matches only. After the cup the stadium was downsized again to its previous capacity. Now noone can tell me that temporary enlargement of the stadium for those three matches really made any common sense, except the necessity of meeting the Uefa requirements for hosting European Cup.
So 30 mio € were spent by the austrian taxpayers, just to be able to sell 46.566 aditional tickets. That's 644,25 € per extra ticket from the taxpayers of Austria. Now I don't believe that actually really made any rational sense. And there are a number of other examples where stadiums have not had any reasonable use after a big sport event. Now Austria is a rather wealthy country and might not have much of a problem financing those 644€ per additional visitor in that stadium. But for countries like Indonesia this approach doesn't make all that much sense.
Obviously the soccer clubs there usually use a multipurpose stadium in the larger cities. And that makes sense. I don't believe one could ask or expect a country like Indonesia to invest in a number of additional pure soccerstadiums. Only for hosting a worldcup. simply because it wouldn't really improve the infrastructure there, because the stadiums there are suitable and I assume also large enough for their national soccer league. And that would probably just make it necessary to find another use for the existing, rather modern athletic stadiums. And I seriously doubt that would make much sense, because it simply creates a necessity for huge investments with a doubtfull effect on the stadium infrastructure there. Here in germany the stadiums are allmost all used for the Bundesliga and have a reasonable size for that purpose, so the required modernisations were a) usefull and b) in many cases necessary anyways with or without the worldcup. In Austria the stadiummodifications really weren't any helpful in several cases, simply because the local leagues and clubs that play in those stadiums are way too small. And in Indonesia it seems as if a number of potential host stadiums are just being modernised or built. And It seems doubtfull that those additional soccerstadiums would really improve the league there much. Not even considering the amount of "necessary" investments to fully meet the Fifa requirements. But I believe those would only make sense if the additional number of stadia would also meet a purpose or find some use after the worldcup, which probably could be quite questionable, but of course I'm not familliar enough with those cities in Indonesia and their acutal stadiuminfrastructure to know if any additional stadiums of the required size would find a propper use after a worldcup.
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Old February 13th, 2009, 04:36 AM   #124
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Well in essence you're making my argument. While we can't say for sure how profitable the Euro events in Austria and Switzerland were, if we use your analogy then Indonesia should NOT invest in any pure soccer stadiums, which I agree with. Thus, when comparing bids FIFA should take that into consideration, AND give greater appreciation to those nations that do have more proper facilities and have made the investment. This is why I would say Australia appears to be a much better bid, as would any bid with more viable venues that would provide better accommodations (read: USA).

Indonesia will someday prove a great WC host, and maye for 2022, but based on what we've seen and know they're far behind the capabilities of several other bids for this upcoming round.
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Old February 13th, 2009, 10:01 AM   #125
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yes, Australia has better facilty than us, no doubt.
so FIFA will not give chance to developing country like Indonesia?
we have more than 100 nations in this planet, why give second or third chance to
host WC if other nations have the same opportunity..

btw, does FIFA only considered on stadium?? that's the only one reason to become WC Host?? c'mon.. Indonesia is a country with huge population, great football atmosphere, and passionate supporters..
i hope FIFA know it..

sorry for my bad english..
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Old February 13th, 2009, 12:29 PM   #126
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No, FIFA only considers the $$$$$$$$.
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Old February 13th, 2009, 05:01 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by =NaNdA= View Post
yes, Australia has better facilty than us, no doubt.
so FIFA will not give chance to developing country like Indonesia?
we have more than 100 nations in this planet, why give second or third chance to
host WC if other nations have the same opportunity..

btw, does FIFA only considered on stadium?? that's the only one reason to become WC Host?? c'mon.. Indonesia is a country with huge population, great football atmosphere, and passionate supporters..
i hope FIFA know it..

sorry for my bad english..
Don't worry about your English, friend, any working knowledge of a second language is to be applauded!

First off, keep in mind this is all just my opinion. No, FIFA won't be thinking just about stadiums. They hope and probably intend to have the event hosted by many countries around the globe that have never hosted the WC, and that's why they've made considerable efforts to bring the event to Africa and back to South America. But FIFA is not a charity, either, and they know that if they overlook quality bids while simply focusing on developing countries then they will risk hurting the quality of the event and lose support among those nations that have invested so much money and cultural energy on the sport. Besides, losing a WC bid isn't an indication that the bid was bid, merely that someone else's bid was better.

FIFA knows that conditions in places like Indonesia will likely only get better. As such, why pass over a possibly better bid from Australia for 2022 when they know Indonesia can bid again in the future when they'll likely be better prepared? They want to make each event as successful as possible, so just because Indonesians love the game doesn't mean that alone will earn them a bid. Just look at places like Netherlands, China and elsewhere that can say the same thing. Clearly the logistics of hosting a WC rules over the value of local fan support. And thus, getting back to my original point, this is why simply having a volume of large athletics stadiums doesn't equate to the same level of investment in the game as having several pure soccer stadiums.

FIFA knows Indonesia's assets and potential. They also know that others might have more potential for this round of the WC and that Indonesia can always come back and try again, when there's less of a chance to losing the bid to the likes of Australia or Japan. That's all I'm saying. Either way, I wish you and your nation well in their efforts, and if they do get the chance to host then may it be a rousing success!
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Old February 14th, 2009, 04:59 AM   #128
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inside stadiums of Indonesia

Palaran Stadium - Samarinda - 60.000




Jakabaring Stadium - Palembang - 55.000


Jalak Harupat Stadium - Soreang - 40.000


Manahan Stadium - Solo - 30.000


Gelora Bung Karno Main Stadium - Jakarta - 88.000
image hosted on flickr


Maguwoharjo Stadium - Sleman - 30.000
image hosted on flickr


Kanjuruhan Stadium - Malang - 30.000
image hosted on flickr

Last edited by oweeyman; February 14th, 2009 at 05:14 AM.
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Old February 14th, 2009, 09:30 PM   #129
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hmmm

i agree that athletics stadiums should be kept to a minimum if not outlawed. The whole point should be about maximising fan comfort, if it wasn't then what is the point in having all these bids, because anyone could then hold the world cup with minimum investment.

For me a nation that wishes to host the world cup needs a football pedigree and culture. Indonesia doesn't seem to have the pedigree having never qualified for the world cup under it's own name, even that was in 1938! It does seem to have a football culture though, but it seems one not strong enough to sustain football only venues. However even if they built 12 brand spanking new football only stadiums they should not be considered/ Not until their performances improve on the field ie they have to qualify for a world cup!!
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Old February 15th, 2009, 05:26 AM   #130
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Our Football Organizations seems made a little mistake to manage our national team in late 1980 - 1990's

but in 2000's the football organizations called PSSI has made a huge reformation...
they has made a lot of program to make our football better than before..
and World Cup is one of their Program..

another program i knew is
1. Make The League better, now it's called Indonesian Super League ( ISL ) with 18 teams from all around Indonesia...started last year.. best in South East Asia..
2. Every football organizations in ISL must have a law firm, so they can jump into large business..with big sponsorship..
3. Every team in ISL must have new standard Stadium.. better facility and better light so they can held a night game..
4. Better facility training and every team in ISL must have youth development program..
5. Start to held International Event.. Started in 2007 with Asian Cup with Thailand, Malaysia and Vietnam, but the final Match held @ GBK Stadium, Jakarta..
6. About National Team... last match, we have a draw with Oman in Oman Stadium and draw with Australia in GBK Stadium, i think our national team has a positive way to the future with better mangement and better skill..
7. Our National Youth Program ( U-15 ) joined with Uruguay League to meet the real atmosphere of International Football
8. The amount of Football School keep raising...with Arsenal Football School and later Real Madrid Football School will come..
9. So many big and International Stadium will be built... because we will held SEA GAmes ( South East Asian Games ) in 2011..

i hope within 10 years more.. we have a better teams, better stadium and better management in Indonesian Football..
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Old February 15th, 2009, 08:45 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by =NaNdA= View Post
Our Football Organizations seems made a little mistake to manage our national team in late 1980 - 1990's

but in 2000's the football organizations called PSSI has made a huge reformation...
they has made a lot of program to make our football better than before..
and World Cup is one of their Program..

another program i knew is
1. Make The League better, now it's called Indonesian Super League ( ISL ) with 18 teams from all around Indonesia...started last year.. best in South East Asia..
2. Every football organizations in ISL must have a law firm, so they can jump into large business..with big sponsorship..
3. Every team in ISL must have new standard Stadium.. better facility and better light so they can held a night game..
4. Better facility training and every team in ISL must have youth development program..
5. Start to held International Event.. Started in 2007 with Asian Cup with Thailand, Malaysia and Vietnam, but the final Match held @ GBK Stadium, Jakarta..
6. About National Team... last match, we have a draw with Oman in Oman Stadium and draw with Australia in GBK Stadium, i think our national team has a positive way to the future with better mangement and better skill..
7. Our National Youth Program ( U-15 ) joined with Uruguay League to meet the real atmosphere of International Football
8. The amount of Football School keep raising...with Arsenal Football School and later Real Madrid Football School will come..
9. So many big and International Stadium will be built... because we will held SEA GAmes ( South East Asian Games ) in 2011..

i hope within 10 years more.. we have a better teams, better stadium and better management in Indonesian Football..
then in ten years, when that is all in place you should bid!
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Old February 16th, 2009, 05:25 AM   #132
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i mean... the stadium can be modified to cover or lose the tracks for a while...

major problems for me example, we don't have any International Stadium right now
but we still want to host WC.. nah.. that's a major problem...
Not having an International Stadium?
Gelora BUng Karno is an international stadium, havent you known?
Problems you mentioned aren't major problems, since Indonesia already planned to build new stadiums, even they weren't planning to host WC but again the track issue..
Korea for example, built 10 TOTALLY NEW STADIUMS for WC 2002 in less than 13 years. Indonesia could do the same thing and have 2 other stadiums to be refurbished.

About this WC in Indonesia, i think it would make a bigger impact for non-football compared to football. If we host WC than the mass transportation system in Indonesia, no matter what, will be fixed and that would be a very good thing to happen.
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Old February 16th, 2009, 05:35 AM   #133
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hmmm

Indonesia doesn't seem to have the pedigree having never qualified for the world cup under it's own name, even that was in 1938! It does seem to have a football culture though, but it seems one not strong enough to sustain football only venues. However even if they built 12 brand spanking new football only stadiums they should not be considered/ Not until their performances improve on the field ie they have to qualify for a world cup!!
then, FIFA could change their rules. A host country doesn't automatically qualify the WC.
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Old February 16th, 2009, 05:44 AM   #134
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then, FIFA could change their rules. A host country doesn't automatically qualify the WC.
You can't have a tournament where the hosts are unrepresented, unless you don't decide until all the teams are qualified, but as the world cup takes years of planning it's not possible. Just not a good idea at all!
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Old February 16th, 2009, 02:57 PM   #135
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They did a pretty shit job of hosting the Asian Cup in 2007.
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Old February 16th, 2009, 04:36 PM   #136
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Not having an International Stadium?
Gelora BUng Karno is an international stadium, havent you known?
Problems you mentioned aren't major problems, since Indonesia already planned to build new stadiums, even they weren't planning to host WC but again the track issue..
Korea for example, built 10 TOTALLY NEW STADIUMS for WC 2002 in less than 13 years. Indonesia could do the same thing and have 2 other stadiums to be refurbished.

About this WC in Indonesia, i think it would make a bigger impact for non-football compared to football. If we host WC than the mass transportation system in Indonesia, no matter what, will be fixed and that would be a very good thing to happen.
hey.. hey.. i didn't mean like that..

i mean... Having an athletic tracks not a major problem...
i know that GBK, Palaran and Jakabaring is an International Stadium..

what i mean is the major problem..
when we don't have any International Stadium but we try to host WC..
that's a major problem.. since we had International Stadium and we will built more... I think we don't have any problem and should bid for 2022!
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Old February 16th, 2009, 06:58 PM   #137
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There are more possibilities that this evening I will go to Mars than Indonesia will host a WC.

A bid without chance.
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Old February 17th, 2009, 04:01 AM   #138
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^

Met a dude in Zanzibar who specializes in 'special types of herbs', he reckons he has 'flown' to Mars many times.

With the shit that grows in the hills in Indonesia, maybe they have been on the same stuff and can't see the reality because of the haze.
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Old February 18th, 2009, 04:51 AM   #139
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I don't think Indonesia should be hosting a World Cup anytime soon. They do have some excellent stadiums such as the Gelora Bung Karno Stadium. The world "Gelora" probably means "Largest stadium in the city or province". Indonesia only made one appearance in the World Cup and they never got past the First Round. If you don't believe me, just look at this map:

South Africa also made one World cup appearance and didn't get past the first round and they're hosting a World Cup in the near future.
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Old February 18th, 2009, 08:12 AM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim856796 View Post
I don't think Indonesia should be hosting a World Cup anytime soon. They do have some excellent stadiums such as the Gelora Bung Karno Stadium. The world "Gelora" probably means "Largest stadium in the city or province". Indonesia only made one appearance in the World Cup and they never got past the First Round. If you don't believe me, just look at this map:

South Africa also made one World cup appearance and didn't get past the first round and they're hosting a World Cup in the near future.
Nope Gelora is shortened for Gelanggang Olah Raga which means Sports Arena (Karno is Soekarno Indo's First President) yup there you go.. if SA can, why can't Indonesia?

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^

Met a dude in Zanzibar who specializes in 'special types of herbs', he reckons he has 'flown' to Mars many times.

With the shit that grows in the hills in Indonesia, maybe they have been on the same stuff and can't see the reality because of the haze.
Come Again? I don't see any connection with Herbs and Indonesia

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Originally Posted by Mr.Underground View Post
There are more possibilities that this evening I will go to Mars than Indonesia will host a WC.

A bid without chance.
you got Indonesia mixed up with Bhutan or Laos ...anyways better to try than to just dream on forever

Quote:
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They did a pretty shit job of hosting the Asian Cup in 2007.
lolz your just jealous your country never hosted it if it was Shit, Indonesia would've been Canceled/Replaced

I don't see why can't we hold it, we got the 200 Million pop. and development/Infrastructure as par as any regional power (Brazil, Mexico) and IMO the same Football performance with South Africa which can improve in 13 years time...Indonesia's Green World Cup 2022 is a breakthrough idea

I still hope its Russia 2018 and Indonesia 2022, US and Australia can wait till WC 2026

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Last edited by F-ian; February 18th, 2009 at 08:28 AM.
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