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Old August 21st, 2015, 03:38 AM   #101
WeimieLvr
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Originally Posted by Lexy View Post
Raleigh is a very suburban minded metro. People like it for the large houses and big yards with winding cul-de-sacs. Just a simple look at google earth will show this city is NOT without it's issues when talking urban fabric.
Did someone say that Raleigh is without issues? I missed it if they did. I hope you aren't implying that other southern metros are any different from Raleigh in that respect...people love Atlanta, Charlotte, Nashville, the FL metros, and a long list of other cities for those same reasons. Honestly that is the main draw of suburbs everywhere - lower density, larger lots, more house for the money, and the dreaded cul-de-sac. People with families tend to loves those things, so it's certainly not unique to Raleigh in the least.

Raleigh is much like many other cities - urban in its urban areas with single-family houses that are still close to downtown. It's common across NC and the South.
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Old August 21st, 2015, 04:23 PM   #102
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Not to mention that uptown is normally an urban district outside of the CBD...like the uptowns in Chicago, Houston, Cincinnati, Minneapolis, New Orleans, etc. Uptown Charlotte just reminds me more of Midtown Atlanta than downtown, especially due to the differences you mentioned above. Downtown Atlanta is gritty, historic, and just more of a traditional downtown; Midtown is newer, cleaner, and more of an entertainment area - similar to uptown Charlotte - and the skylines are more similar.

I didn't mean anything derogatory by it.
None taken, you and Kraz make good points. Maybe not as gritty but in my opinion uptown Charlotte has all the basic characteristics and functions of any downtown. Whereas midtown ATL evolved as an extension to downtown ATL and doesn't necessarily possess those inherent characteristics. Midtown ATL meets many of the criteria to qualify as downtown to live, play and work but obviously not purposed for that function. It has more of a Crystal City or Rosslyn feel to it but solidly integrated with the old hoods.

Although some of Uptown Charlotte's older bldgs have been refaced and in cases replaced due to urban renewal, it's rather obvious that the primary intention is to serve as downtown for the metro area....skylines aside.

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Old August 21st, 2015, 08:51 PM   #103
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None taken, you and Kraz make good points. Maybe not as gritty but in my opinion uptown Charlotte has all the basic characteristics and functions of any downtown. Whereas midtown ATL evolved as an extension to downtown ATL and doesn't necessarily possess those inherent characteristics. Midtown ATL meets many of the criteria to qualify as downtown to live, play and work but obviously not purposed for that function. It has more of a Crystal City or Rosslyn feel to it but solidly integrated with the old hoods.

Although some of Uptown Charlotte's older bldgs have been refaced and in cases replaced due to urban renewal, it's rather obvious that the primary intention is to serve as downtown for the metro area....skylines aside.
Of course Uptown Charlotte is meant to be the CBD/downtown for the metro...I didn't mean to imply that it isn't. It simply reminds me more of Midtown Atlanta than downtown - probably due to the newness and more recent development booms in both areas.
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Old August 21st, 2015, 10:10 PM   #104
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Of course Uptown Charlotte is meant to be the CBD/downtown for the metro...I didn't mean to imply that it isn't. It simply reminds me more of Midtown Atlanta than downtown - probably due to the newness and more recent development booms in both areas.
Got it. In my opinion Uptown seems much more cohesive and centralized than midtown ATL although it's been a few years since I've been to midtown. It's probably built up a bunch since then, 2008/09.

Damn shame what they did to Charlotte when you see some of those old pictures.
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Old August 24th, 2015, 05:14 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by WeimieLvr View Post
Did someone say that Raleigh is without issues? I missed it if they did. I hope you aren't implying that other southern metros are any different from Raleigh in that respect...people love Atlanta, Charlotte, Nashville, the FL metros, and a long list of other cities for those same reasons. Honestly that is the main draw of suburbs everywhere - lower density, larger lots, more house for the money, and the dreaded cul-de-sac. People with families tend to loves those things, so it's certainly not unique to Raleigh in the least.

Raleigh is much like many other cities - urban in its urban areas with single-family houses that are still close to downtown. It's common across NC and the South.

Agreed, but Raleigh isn't a downtown-centered city. The RTP is a big draw away from downtown. Out of the three cities you mentioned, FL cities not withstanding, Nashville sprawls the least for what it's worth. Leaders have made it a point to not duplicate the same mistakes made in early Atlanta or Charlotte when talking urban development.
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Old August 25th, 2015, 04:04 PM   #106
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Out of the three cities you mentioned, FL cities not withstanding, Nashville sprawls the least for what it's worth.
Actually Nashville sprawls more than Atlanta but less than Charlotte according to this study (Table 6): http://www.smartgrowthamerica.org/do...prawl-2014.pdf

And this ranking placed it at #1: http://adventure.howstuffworks.com/1...es.htm#page=10

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Leaders have made it a point to not duplicate the same mistakes made in early Atlanta or Charlotte when talking urban development.
Like what? In all of these Sunbelt metros, neighboring cities and counties aren't turning down the tax revenue that new sprawling development provides them; many of them are bedroom communities and such development is their bread and butter. So it seems that Nashville is duplicating the same mistakes as Atlanta and Charlotte but not emulating one of their most notable successes in the form of rail-based transit.
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Old August 25th, 2015, 08:54 PM   #107
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Actually Nashville sprawls more than Atlanta but less than Charlotte according to this study (Table 6): http://www.smartgrowthamerica.org/do...prawl-2014.pdf

And this ranking placed it at #1: http://adventure.howstuffworks.com/1...es.htm#page=10

Nashville isn't more sprawled than Atlanta. Google Earth is your best friend in this case. It's also impossible we are ranked #1 in the country. Nice try, though.



Like what? In all of these Sunbelt metros, neighboring cities and counties aren't turning down the tax revenue that new sprawling development provides them; many of them are bedroom communities and such development is their bread and butter. So it seems that Nashville is duplicating the same mistakes as Atlanta and Charlotte but not emulating one of their most notable successes in the form of rail-based transit.
I guess by trying to develop smarter. The transit issue will be fully addressed once a new mayor takes office.
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Old August 25th, 2015, 10:22 PM   #108
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I guess by trying to develop smarter. The transit issue will be fully addressed once a new mayor takes office.
Smarter how? That's awfully vague. One of the smartest ways to develop is by concentrating development near transit, and Nashville is lacking in the transit department, soooo....

And I don't think Nashville has instituted a UGB, which is another commonly-used smart-growth strategy.
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Old August 25th, 2015, 11:39 PM   #109
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I'd have to say it's probably Jackson. The city is a real dump, I've been to Jackson many times and it just can't seem to get better. The city has tried to revitalize Capitol Street but construction halted halfway through and now that street is a mess! Same with Farish Street, the city tried to make it the "Beale Street" of Jackson but it completely tanked! The buildings along Farish Street are still run down, the street itself is broken up and potholed, and there is trash everywhere. Not to mention panhandlers and all around seedy characters in this area. The crime and disorganization of the city government could compare to a developing country honestly.

Jackson's main node of growth is Madison County (though Rankin County is starting to pick up on some of the growth). The suburbs around the Ross Burnett Reservoir (The Res) are very nice with great living standards. A shocking difference from the City of Jackson.



On the flip side, Mississippi cities that are up and coming are Tupelo and Hattiesburg. These cities are growing quite nicely and are beginning to attract large companies. They are also nice places to live, particularly Hattiesburg.
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Old August 26th, 2015, 01:24 AM   #110
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Smarter how? That's awfully vague. One of the smartest ways to develop is by concentrating development near transit, and Nashville is lacking in the transit department, soooo....

And I don't think Nashville has instituted a UGB, which is another commonly-used smart-growth strategy.
Again, all of that is coming once the new administration takes office. Bottomline is, it's happening and happening sooner than it did in our development process than Atlanta or Charlotte. That's a fact.

The concentration of development is happening along arteries that will carry whatever forms of transit get approved.

UGB isn't really needed since it's a city-county, and the urban development is 90% of Davidson County.
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Old August 26th, 2015, 06:04 AM   #111
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Again, all of that is coming once the new administration takes office. Bottomline is, it's happening and happening sooner than it did in our development process than Atlanta or Charlotte. That's a fact.

The concentration of development is happening along arteries that will carry whatever forms of transit get approved.

UGB isn't really needed since it's a city-county, and the urban development is 90% of Davidson County.
How can something that hasn't happened yet be factual? And even if these smart-growth initiatives will take place once a new administration is in place (and it is a very long, arduous process to get new modes of transit approved), then that means heretofore, the city has been developing just like Atlanta and Charlotte in terms of sprawling development and therefore, has not "learned from their mistakes." As a matter of fact, it's not even happening sooner in Nashville's development process than in Atlanta or Charlotte. Atlanta approved MARTA as an interjurisdictional agency in the mid-60's when it was a smaller metro than Nashville is now, and LYNX began operations in Charlotte in 2007, also when it was a smaller metro than Nashville is currently. By the time Nashville actually approves any sort of new transit system, at current growth rates, it will certainly be a good bit larger than Atlanta and Charlotte were when they established theirs'. And Atlanta and Charlotte have already built new streetcar lines, Charlotte is expanding LRT as we speak, and progress is being made on the Beltline and there are plans to expand MARTA in Atlanta--all before any sort of practical rail-based transit in Nashville gets off the ground (not counting the commuter rail line).

Nashville is a fine city in its own right, but isn't the Portland of the South in this regard and based on the study and ranking I linked to earlier, it's quite clear that it hasn't really been doing anything substantially different in terms of development patterns as it sprawls just as much as Atlanta and Charlotte. The most you could probably say that it has done better is preserved more of its urban fabric in the core.
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Old August 26th, 2015, 03:53 PM   #112
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Nashville's feather in its cap will always be its history and the preservation of architecture along streets like 1st Ave, Broadway and Printer's Alley. Beyond that, it made the same stupid mistakes Charlotte and ATL made like allow an interstate to rip through the middle of it (65 in the case of Nashville) and develop nodes of urbanization outside the city center, decentralizing the core. (the Gulch in Nashville, NoDa in Charlotte or, clearly to a much larger degree, Buckhead in ATL). But at the very least, Charlotte and Atlanta either have or will have transit connections to these urban centers in the near future. I'm so jealous of Nashville's history though. In Charlotte we basically just have Latta Arcade.
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Old August 26th, 2015, 04:57 PM   #113
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Nashville's feather in its cap will always be its history and the preservation of architecture along streets like 1st Ave, Broadway and Printer's Alley. Beyond that, it made the same stupid mistakes Charlotte and ATL made like allow an interstate to rip through the middle of it (65 in the case of Nashville) and develop nodes of urbanization outside the city center, decentralizing the core. (the Gulch in Nashville, NoDa in Charlotte or, clearly to a much larger degree, Buckhead in ATL). But at the very least, Charlotte and Atlanta either have or will have transit connections to these urban centers in the near future. I'm so jealous of Nashville's history though. In Charlotte we basically just have Latta Arcade.
I don't think NoDa is really an example of a "node of urbanization outside the city center" in Charlotte; it's a revitalized mill village, not an office district. SouthPark and Ballantyne would be much better examples of that in Charlotte. And the old textile mills also constitute a big part of Charlotte's history, but they just aren't in Uptown. Otherwise I agree with you.
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Old August 27th, 2015, 03:24 AM   #114
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Nashville's feather in its cap will always be its history and the preservation of architecture along streets like 1st Ave, Broadway and Printer's Alley. Beyond that, it made the same stupid mistakes Charlotte and ATL made like allow an interstate to rip through the middle of it (65 in the case of Nashville) and develop nodes of urbanization outside the city center, decentralizing the core. (the Gulch in Nashville, NoDa in Charlotte or, clearly to a much larger degree, Buckhead in ATL). But at the very least, Charlotte and Atlanta either have or will have transit connections to these urban centers in the near future. I'm so jealous of Nashville's history though. In Charlotte we basically just have Latta Arcade.

The Gulch is considered part of the core though. Even the US Census looks at it as the same. Nashville is at a stage where they can really shape their future growth. Some bad decisions were made at the same stage with the other two cities and that has been noted numerous times throughout the years on here and SSP. Nashville is trying to keep from making some of these same mistakes with smarter planning and the eventual revival of transit plans once we get a new mayor (elections are next month).
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Old August 27th, 2015, 03:07 PM   #115
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The Gulch is considered part of the core though. Even the US Census looks at it as the same. Nashville is at a stage where they can really shape their future growth. Some bad decisions were made at the same stage with the other two cities and that has been noted numerous times throughout the years on here and SSP. Nashville is trying to keep from making some of these same mistakes with smarter planning and the eventual revival of transit plans once we get a new mayor (elections are next month).
Those "bad decisions" essentially boil down to three things: 1) suburban sprawl, 2) highways ripping through the core, and 3) urban renewal. Nashville is just as sprawly as Atlanta and Charlotte and it has an interstate going through its core like those two cities. It has done a little better in preserving its urban fabric in the core, but a big reason for that is it didn't boom as early as those other two cities.

For the most part, Nashville has followed and is following in the footsteps of cities like Atlanta and Charlotte, both bad and good.
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Old August 27th, 2015, 05:23 PM   #116
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I don't think NoDa is really an example of a "node of urbanization outside the city center" in Charlotte; it's a revitalized mill village, not an office district. SouthPark and Ballantyne would be much better examples of that in Charlotte. And the old textile mills also constitute a big part of Charlotte's history, but they just aren't in Uptown. Otherwise I agree with you.
Yeah, that is definitely a better comparison. Southpark is probably best. Luckily there have been some rumblings about spurring some sort of rail extension into both Ballantyne and or Southpark. Hopefully they come to fruition.

Honestly I'd be okay with Ballantyne getting hit with an a-bomb (minus the casualties of course). I hate that place.
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Old Yesterday, 07:37 AM   #117
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Fwiw, I consider Southpark, Buckhead, and Green Hills to be similar districts in relation to the cities they are in. The major difference obviously being Buckhead's skyline.
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