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Old January 12th, 2018, 09:13 AM   #16501
alserrod
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenjac View Post
Is it still compulsory to show your ID card if you want to pay with debit or credit card?

It was compuslory last time I was in Spain (in 2007) and I like that practice very much.
yes, it is.
Should you have to dial your personal secret number, it is quite weird to see a shop asking for it. It is more common when you have to sign...

In case it is a fraud, you have 24h (usually) to get in contact with your bank and cancel your card). It could be used and could be shop responsibility if they didn't check your identity.
If dialing a number, it is matter of opinion because you never have to say it to anyone. (problem can be if it was stolen with force and you were asked to say it...). Anyway, haven't read news about those cases.

but about signing... fake signs are easy to make comparing with tiny place in cards to hold the sign sample (I always write as "my sign": "Ask ID, please", because it is easier to check with ID sign)

In a bank, a long time ago I wanted to make an operation. It was a long time I had taken my ID card and my sign had changed. I had to try three or four times to make exact sign as in the ID card or operation was canceled by bank, despite it was same photo than in the official document. It was a time when there was a lot of fraud and black money in banks and some of them where over these cases.


Anyway, for using in a cash dispenser it is not requested (anyway, it should be a plan to join a credit card to your ID card and enough to use ID card to get money from a cash dispenser. In addition, I read there were plans to join health public system card with ID card).


This is... in Spain people holds always ID card, nevertheless where they go. Yeah, it is not absolutely compulsery to hold it. Should an officer ask for it and you do not hold, you can say your name and ID number and he can try to check your identity. But I reckon that in almost all cases they will not be able to do it. By radio they can know your data but maybe not a picture (or people in a computering data store is too busy to do these things). Therefore, they are entitled to force you to go to a police station, check in a computer your identity and release you. Just checking it without fining... but losing time.
In almost all official sites it is mandatory to show it (as said, they could allow passport, hard to believe they allow driving licence, only accepted to vote and no one else).


There is a hint we know in Spain. Never mind where you go... they will ask you your ID number first and later your name. You call your mobile phone company to ask for anything. They will search you in database and will ask your ID number at first. They could make a query with family names and other data but these companies ask ID number at first usually.


Hence... be sure no Spaniard will worry to carry their ID card to any other country... they will be surprised if you say they haven't to hold it!!!



In that way, no changes for a Spaniard for Schengen (inside EU, it is enough ID card even non-Schengen area, no need to hold passport, despite it is recommended in those countries where they aren't used to have ID card, just to avoid questions and make it easier). For border controls, all people still knows
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Old January 12th, 2018, 12:28 PM   #16502
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
I have to hold an ID card (ok, I haven't, providing police can identify me... should they cannot, I will go to a police station just to be identified... and really, prefer to hold it instead of losing time). Therefore, it doesn't matter if Schengen requires holding ID card anywhere... because I hold it always

(in addition, to pay with visa card or so, it must be shown)
The question was not whether the people must carry the ID card or not. It was about what is the Schengen countries' default policy to accept foreign citizen's travel documents.
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Old January 12th, 2018, 12:44 PM   #16503
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Since the age of 15, all citizens are obligated to carry their IDs.

But I have never been asked to show my ID while paying with my bank card. It would make the operation incredibly long. Moreover, transfers under 20 € (two consecutive) are done without any authorization - I just place my card onto the device. The third transfer must be authorized by PIN.

About the sign process while paying with a bank card - I have only encountered in Austria. But not always.
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Old January 12th, 2018, 03:01 PM   #16504
eeee.
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Quote:
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Russians would not agree.
Because of Abchasia and South Ossetia? That would be 16 neighbours.
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Old January 12th, 2018, 03:24 PM   #16505
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
Goverments typically follow a strict policy to illegal border crossing. The default fine for someone travelling from Helsinki to Tallinn without proper travel documents, is about 750 euros for an average-income citizen.
Is it actually possible? I thought the ferry companies were checking everyone before entering the sea-side part of the terminals, at least in Tallinn.

But now that you say that, I flew recently from Tallinn to Warsaw without an ID check.

Polish fines are much lower, no more than 125 Euro or so for crossing without a valid travel document. In practice, they won't fine you as long as you have some way of showing who you are, even a photocopy.
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Old January 12th, 2018, 04:58 PM   #16506
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I wasn't sure how it is with carrying the IDs in Poland and it seems - no, it's not obligatory. You are obliged to possess an ID but not to carry it with you. Although it might be useful if the police wants to verify your identity. If you don't have the document with you, they are allowed to take you to the police station (or to your home where you left it). However, it will happen rather only if they suspect you in any way.

I usually carry it with me while going out of home - but I never had a situation in which I would really need it, apart from the cases when I needed it for some formalities, like receiving a registered letter or a package from the post office.

Never have I got it checked while paying by card. Actually, it even happened to me that one of my parents borrowed me his bank card to pay for the shopping. Although if they checked that it's not my personal card, I couldn't do the payment. But normally, the cashiers don't check it.

If I am not mistaken, it's obligatory to have an ID or a driving licence with you while riding a bicycle - because they are the documents entitling you to that. Unless you are under 18 - then, the ID is not enough and you must have so called "cycling card" - which you usually can get in the 4th year of the primary school. Although I haven't heard about enforcing this rule in practice.

Also on public transport if you travel without paying for the ticket, you are obliged to present any identification document (not necessarily an ID, might be e.g. a school ID) to the inspector, so that he can give you a "fine" (which is actually not a fine in the legal sense, but an administrative fee, kind of a "very expensive bus ticket"). If you don't do it (no valid ticket and no document), the public transport inspectors are allowed to hold you - usually to the terminal stop of the bus or tram, to where they call the police, so that they can verify your identity.
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Old January 12th, 2018, 05:40 PM   #16507
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eeee. View Post
Because of Abchasia and South Ossetia? That would be 16 neighbours.
I did not posted any wrong information except for the fact that Russia disputes the sovereignty of Ukraine. Abkhazia and South Ossetia are separatist regions of Russia and they consider them as enclaves, rather than countries.

The staggering number for Russia is that it borders a total of 20,241 km of land borders (!)
Out of which they border Kazakhstan by more than 7 thousand and China by more than 5 thousand kilometers.
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Old January 12th, 2018, 10:11 PM   #16508
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Your posts are quite misleading, not to mention you mix politics with a more aseptic topic as a mere border crossing.

Internationally it is recognized Russia borders 14 countries. You haven't even listed your 15 bordering countries. So stop messing up and stick to a widely accepted point of view.
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Old January 12th, 2018, 10:14 PM   #16509
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Quote:
Originally Posted by volodaaaa View Post
Since the age of 15, all citizens are obligated to carry their IDs.

But I have never been asked to show my ID while paying with my bank card. It would make the operation incredibly long. Moreover, transfers under 20 € (two consecutive) are done without any authorization - I just place my card onto the device. The third transfer must be authorized by PIN.

About the sign process while paying with a bank card - I have only encountered in Austria. But not always.
Sometimes matter of traditions, sometimes by law.

I have a touchless credit card and joined in the mobile phone.

For cash dispensers it is enough to get into machine my credit card a, use PIN and ask for money (or other operations)

To pay... it would be weird to be requested to sign... that depends more on card than on shops. But I had one card where I asked to sign always instead of PIN, just thought I would be safer

Usually, inserting in the machine the credit card and dialing PIN. Shop can or cannot ask for ID card... but they could be in problems if fraud. Obviously, you are encouraged not to say your PIN and will be your fault. This is, only fraud if it was stolen, asked by force your PIN and used within 24h or before you cancel it. Not very often at all... but would be shop's fault because they must check identity.

In addition, almost all shops machines and credit cards are changing to touchless. That means no need to insert in machine, just approach to machine. Usually up to 20 euro they do not ask for PIN. In those cases I use to ask for bill copy, just to check amount was correct. Banks and shops prefer to afford risk of fraud and be faster with operations (over 20 euro, PIN requested)

Finally, this week I have used my mobile. Joining credit card, just approach mobile to machine. I set to ask in my mobile PIN over 10. Dialed and payed. I do not know if they should ask for ID card. In the bank bill it appears it was payed with mobile, not card and in the shop, they knew my given name. It is a shop I go often.


Sorry for off-topic, it was just a hint about how in Spain it is so needed to hold your ID card. There are other ways to need it.

For instance... I do not know nowadays (if when 12 or 16) but when I was child, to have primary school title ID number was requested. Thus, asking first ID card when 13
To request to entry in music schools (age 7) you may fill child ID number
To play any "official sport" (never mind if handball, football or whatever, but any sport managed by an official federation) it is mandatory to fill ID number (I reckon it is for sport accident insurance)
And... not nowadays by a court decission but some years ago some flight companies requested to hold ID card for any children even in domestic flights .


They are only samples about how an ID card is so needed and, as consequence, no people wonders to carry any document in Schengen area


Sorry for OT
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Old January 12th, 2018, 10:35 PM   #16510
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In Poland you just give your PESEL number in such situations - a national identification number which is assigned to every citizen. You don't have to have an ID card.

At school, an ID is needed only at the very end when you are passing the national exam after the high school that entitles you to apply to the university or any other higher education institution. On all the earlier stages, the school ID is enough.

Until now, almost all the students passed that exam after getting 18 and from the age of 18 you are obliged to have an ID. So everyone, basically, has it.

But some time ago, they tried to shift the age of going to primary school from 7 to 6. The students that went to primary school at the age of 6 will be passing those after-high-school exams at the age of 17, so they will have to get their IDs earlier.

Before, there were rare cases when a talented child could get a psychologist statement that it can start the school earlier.

And the idea of going to school at the age of 6 was not really good as many children at this age are still not prepared to follow fixed schedules, do many things on their own and so on. So, if I remember well, they finally didn't do this shift at all (the transition period in which it was voluntary for the parent to send their child to school at the age of 6 did not end) and now they are returning to the system with 7-years-olds going to the first class.

Before the first class of school, there is also one obligatory year of kindergarten that is supposed to prepare the child to school (so called "zeroth class"). In the areas where there is not many kindergartens, e.g. in the countryside, kindergarten classes for the 6-years-olds are organized at primary schools.

And as I remember my "zeroth class", we had some basics of reading and writing as well as very simple mathematical calculations (like addition of numbers up to 10) in it. Personally, I could already read before that, so it was a little bit weird for me, but still, I couldn't write using the standard handwritten "font", only draw the capital letters like in the print - so this was new.

But we are going even more off the topic. To return to it, in Poland, the children below 18 may get an ID and it's useful mainly for travelling within the EU. You can get a passport as well, but it's more trouble. For the passport you have to pay a few dozens of zł and you have to go to a bigger town or city where there is the proper office, the ID is for free and you get it in your municipality.

And one other thing that happened to be quite important was that for a child, if I remember well, over 13, to get a passport, the signatures of both parents are required, but to get an ID, the signature of one of the parents is sufficient, which may be useful e.g. if the parents are divorced and it's not so easy to contact one of them.

Another use of an ID below 18 practiced by some is misleading the seller at the store that they are over 18 so that they can buy alcohol. It sometimes happens that when the seller sees that the person has an ID, he automatically assumes he must be over 18 (because in the past, it was practically unmet or even impossible to have an ID below 18) and sells the booze, without checking the birth date on it.

By the way, when were the paper booklet-form IDs in your countries replaced with the ones in a card format? In Poland, they started issuing the IDs in a credit card format in 2001 and the transition period of the ID exchange ended in 2007. Before, it was a booklet that looked like that:



Like so looked the main page with the personal data (this one is the first one of one of Polish celebrities):



But there were also some other pages for introducing the family, the employer and so on.

All the entries were handwritten - till the change to plastic cards in 2001.
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Old January 12th, 2018, 11:06 PM   #16511
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In Spain... ferry companies request ID card because insurance issues to all passengers, thus babies living in islands have them or would be isolated.

Honestly, I do not remember when my last passport expired. Have traveled always within Schengen area (plus Andorra where it is enough Spanish, French and other ID cards) and haven't worried about that issue.

In addition, for ID card for an under-18 it is enough for a father/mother agreement but for passport, both parents must sign (there is a procedure when it is impossible to go together at same time. Most of them are delivered only in the morning and maybe one can go, sign agreement and later the second one go with child and make it).

Getting out from Spain (for under-18) without passport is allowed providing that:

- hold ID card instead of passport (despite most of exits are without custom control)
- have a special temporary permission signed by both parents.... or travel with both parents at same time
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Old January 13th, 2018, 12:25 AM   #16512
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kpc21 View Post
By the way, when were the paper booklet-form IDs in your countries replaced with the ones in a card format? In Poland, they started issuing the IDs in a credit card format in 2001 and the transition period of the ID exchange ended in 2007.
Identity card type issued by SFR Yugoslavia and FR Yugoslavia (Serbia and Montenegro), being replaced by plastic card in 2008, dismissed in 2016:

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Old January 13th, 2018, 12:37 AM   #16513
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In Slovenia and Croatia plastic ID cards were issued from the middle of 1970es, FYI. The rest of former state was issuing ID cards as booklets, SLO and HR not after the 1970es.

EDIT: these cards were not in the form of banking cards as today, they were bigger, practically DIN A6 format hard paper transparently plastified on both sides. Probably some Slovenian forum member have a picture of it.

Just found some Serbian plastified ID card from the 1960es:



So dear Great Becskerek guy, at least try not to spread false informations here.
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Old January 13th, 2018, 12:50 AM   #16514
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You all may learn from this small example how the mess the old Federation was. In Belgrade authorities issued a document where the form is in Cyrillic but the data in Latin script.
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Old January 13th, 2018, 12:56 AM   #16515
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So dear Great Becskerek guy, at least try not to spread false informations here.
I was talking about Serbia as a part of SFRY and FRY, booklets were being issued from the 80s.
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Old January 13th, 2018, 01:00 AM   #16516
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Sorry friend, but you stated:

Identity card type issued by SFR Yugoslavia ...

which sounds just like everyone would infer: by the SFRY as a whole.
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Old January 13th, 2018, 01:22 AM   #16517
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Was it indeed the A6 format, or A7?

Because A6 would be not really handy to carry.

The format of e.g. the contemporary passports, or the former booklet Polish IDs, is A7 or close to A7.

I checked it with a Polish car registration certificate - and it actually has the A7 format - I folded an A4 sheet of paper three times and it matches it. Actually, it's triple A7 folded two times, so it creates the A7 format.

Isn't it also so in Germany that their IDs have the A7 format instead of the credit card one?
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Old January 13th, 2018, 04:25 AM   #16518
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kpc21 View Post
Was it indeed the A6 format, or A7?

Because A6 would be not really handy to carry.

The format of e.g. the contemporary passports, or the former booklet Polish IDs, is A7 or close to A7.

I checked it with a Polish car registration certificate - and it actually has the A7 format - I folded an A4 sheet of paper three times and it matches it. Actually, it's triple A7 folded two times, so it creates the A7 format.

Isn't it also so in Germany that their IDs have the A7 format instead of the credit card one?
It was DIN A7 indeed, I made a mistake. Thanks for correcting me.
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Old January 13th, 2018, 06:20 PM   #16519
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Isn't it also so in Germany that their IDs have the A7 format instead of the credit card one?
Until the 30th October 2010 we had only these ID cards at Germany.

These ID cards are valid until 29th October 2020.
From he 1st November 2010 are these offered. It costs 28,80€; for younger people under 24 22,80€. People over 16 need to have an ID card. Since summer 2015 I have the new ID card.

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Old January 13th, 2018, 06:36 PM   #16520
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And how is it with the sizes? Is the old one the A7 format and the new one the credit card format?

And how is it with the car registration certificates in Germany? Because when I checked it on Google Images, I couldn't really realize how it looks like.
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