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Old September 28th, 2016, 04:19 PM   #61
FloridaFuture
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Project street scape sucks. Project as a whole sucks.

Even with "funky stuff" they could've at a bare minimum, made the units walk-ups.
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Old September 28th, 2016, 04:26 PM   #62
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Quote:
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Project street scape sucks. Project as a whole sucks.

Even with "funky stuff" they could've at a bare minimum, made the units walk-ups.
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Old September 28th, 2016, 06:06 PM   #63
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Where exactly would you put retail that is viable? On Laurel? Not exactly downtown. Would you put it on like 130 ft of frontage on Fortune? Because that space is going to be empty for awhile and you need frontage for your leasing office (which is where they have it if you look in the portal).

I agree with you guys about a lot of stuff, but not every project can have retail. It isn't viable in many cases and it takes square footage that could be apartments. Maybe walk-up units could work on the Laurel side, but I think the problem is with the site shape. Maybe some on the new road to the site.

This site has been on the market for like 3 years and someone finally has a plan that works and all you guys can do is oppose it due to unrealistic expectations of retail and you don't like the colors. They are bringing 400 more units to downtown and probably 600 people. It isn't a site right in the middle of the core.
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Old September 28th, 2016, 10:54 PM   #64
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Idealist vs realist....
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Old September 28th, 2016, 11:17 PM   #65
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Idealist vs realist....
It's not like a little bit of retail or walk-ups would make this project unrealistic.
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Old September 28th, 2016, 11:26 PM   #66
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Its not like that expectation is realistic outside of this forum.

I mean there are a million retail places accessible by roads which is the only transportation system we have here.

You can't start building development as if there were rail for example, those retail spaces would never last competing with Kennedy, Dale Mabry and other major corridors...that's idealistic...
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Old September 28th, 2016, 11:32 PM   #67
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This wouldn't be competing with Dale Mabry or anything, just other retail spots in Downtown. I mean the project alone will have 500+ built in residents/customers.
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Old September 29th, 2016, 04:33 AM   #68
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While I'm not crazy about the design and it seems more in line with what's going into Westshore, it's an area thats kind of off the beaten path from the rest of downtown because of the Ashley ramp. While i'd prefer something much better than this, I do have to agree that adding that many residents is still a great thing to get even better things downtown in the future.
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Old September 29th, 2016, 10:18 AM   #69
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Access to this part of downtown is going to change.

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Its not like that expectation is realistic outside of this forum.
That's simply not true, but when has that ever stopped certain people.
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Old September 29th, 2016, 05:08 PM   #70
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There has to be a way that developers can build a project now that has a portion of the bottom floor used for something miscellaneous like storage or maybe a few parking spaces that can later be turned into retail. The area isn't perfect now, but there's multiple things happening or will happen eventually that will change the area that surrounds this site. You're only a block away from the Straz Center and the Times site has the opportunity to become a hotel and/or residential development in a couple years. The Ashley exit will hopefully disappear soon.
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Old September 29th, 2016, 05:30 PM   #71
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There has to be a way that developers can build a project now that has a portion of the bottom floor used for something miscellaneous like storage or maybe a few parking spaces that can later be turned into retail. The area isn't perfect now, but there's multiple things happening or will happen eventually that will change the area that surrounds this site. You're only a block away from the Straz Center and the Times site has the opportunity to become a hotel and/or residential development in a couple years. The Ashley exit will hopefully disappear soon.
Crescent doesn't make its money by holding projects for a long time. They build then sell. Even REITS wouldn't build retail on this project so that one day maybe perhaps possibly in the future, retail would be viable. The apartments will rent right away. Losing that cash-flow can literally kill a deal especially these days when rent growth is slowing and construction costs are rising.
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Old September 29th, 2016, 05:32 PM   #72
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This wouldn't be competing with Dale Mabry or anything, just other retail spots in Downtown. I mean the project alone will have 500+ built in residents/customers.
Maybe, maybe a coffee shop or something, but most luxury apartment complexes provide free coffee now.

Look I love retail on the bottom floor too. I just don't like it on this project.
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Old September 29th, 2016, 05:34 PM   #73
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Quote:
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It's not like a little bit of retail or walk-ups would make this project unrealistic.
I will give you walk-ups, but retail here would have high turnover and would be empty.
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Old September 29th, 2016, 05:35 PM   #74
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Maybe, maybe a coffee shop or something, but most luxury apartment complexes provide free coffee now.

Look I love retail on the bottom floor too. I just don't like it on this project.
I guess I just don't understand why this project is different then...
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Old September 29th, 2016, 06:02 PM   #75
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There is a lot of downtown ground floor to fill too
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Old September 29th, 2016, 06:14 PM   #76
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Quote:
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I guess I just don't understand why this project is different then...
Just the location man. It is off in a little nook in its own little world blocked by the Ashley ramp. The only residential project near it is the Laurel Place Condos. The only thing it has going for it is its frontage on Laurel.

You can't have retail on Fortune because that is where the leasing center has to be if you want people to see it.

Look i agree with you on the walk-ups along the new entrance road and some on Laurel, but retail would be dead here.
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Old September 30th, 2016, 06:00 PM   #77
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^Between Laurel Place, Arts Center Lofts, the Barrymore and this, we're talking 1000+ residents. Throw in all of the other res within just 1000ft, and we're talking a significant population. Throw in the steady traffic from the riverwalk and, how exactly can this development not support even a few hundred sqft of commercial?

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I will give you walk-ups, but retail here would have high turnover and would be empty.
The same was predicted for Ulele and several other urban projects.

Also, about 3-5 years after this project would open. Laurel will start getting crazy traffic because there will be a new interstate exit at N Blvd. FDOT is shunting some DT traffic onto Laurel, like anyone going to the Straz, library, Poe garage or Doyle Carlton Dr, the signs on the interstate will direct you to N Blvd and across Laurel.

What about when JBL is completed in 2 years as downtown's biggest public event space, and people are constantly streaming up the riverwalk and across the Laurel St Bridge right in front of this development? Why will standalone restaurants work on that side of the river, but commercial space with hundreds of people above it on the DT side won't?

But by all means, let's cater to flippers for the next 3-5 years, instead of serving the community for the next 30-50.


edit: And why does the allure of higher tax income from higher intensity matter so much next to city hall, but not next to nearly $100 million in new taxpayer investments in infrastructure?
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Old September 30th, 2016, 06:17 PM   #78
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Quote:
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^Between Laurel Place, Arts Center Lofts, the Barrymore and this, we're talking 1000+ residents. Throw in all of the other res within just 1000ft, and we're talking a significant population. Throw in the steady traffic from the riverwalk and, how exactly can this development not support even a few hundred sqft of commercial?


The same was predicted for Ulele and several other urban projects.

Also, about 3-5 years after this project would open. Laurel will start getting crazy traffic because there will be a new interstate exit at N Blvd. FDOT is shunting some DT traffic onto Laurel, like anyone going to the Straz, library, Poe garage or Doyle Carlton Dr, the signs on the interstate will direct you to N Blvd and across Laurel.

What about when JBL is completed in 2 years as downtown's biggest public event space, and people are constantly streaming up the riverwalk and across the Laurel St Bridge right in front of this development? Why will standalone restaurants work on that side of the river, but commercial space with hundreds of people above it on the DT side won't?

But by all means, let's cater to flippers for the next 3-5 years, instead of serving the community for the next 30-50.


edit: And why does the allure of higher tax income from higher intensity matter so much next to city hall, but not next to nearly $100 million in new taxpayer investments in infrastructure?
I'm just telling you how developers think. I'm not taking the risk on retail on a meh retail location when I know for a fact I can lease apartments or create a cool amenity space.

You really think a couple hundred square feet of retail is going to benefit the community for 30-50 years? Come on man.
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Old September 30th, 2016, 07:56 PM   #79
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It's not what I 'think', it's what proven to work in other cities. Mixed-use development, even if it's small volumes of ground floor commercial, makes a big difference in the livability of an urban neighborhood. There's only one way to end downtown's horrible addiction with drive-to urbanism. Stop building it.
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Old October 3rd, 2016, 04:34 PM   #80
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Quote:
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It's not what I 'think', it's what proven to work in other cities. Mixed-use development, even if it's small volumes of ground floor commercial, makes a big difference in the livability of an urban neighborhood. There's only one way to end downtown's horrible addiction with drive-to urbanism. Stop building it.
I don't disagree as a whole. I just disagree with this particular site. This site as been sitting there for like 3 years and no one has touched it.
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