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Old October 3rd, 2016, 04:07 PM   #81
FloridaFuture
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apartmentev View Post
I don't disagree as a whole. I just disagree with this particular site. This site as been sitting there for like 3 years and no one has touched it.
So once sites are vacant long enough they don't need to meet design standards?
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Old October 3rd, 2016, 05:19 PM   #82
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So once sites are vacant long enough they don't need to meet design standards?
Retail is not a design standard. It actually impacts the bottom line of a property. Maybe if a site sits long enough the design standards need to be looked at?
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Old October 3rd, 2016, 05:22 PM   #83
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Quote:
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So once sites are vacant long enough they don't need to meet design standards?
I'm willing to let you go buy a piece of property, build 60,000 SF of space to rent of only which part of it is viable. Would you do that? No. You are going to build what you think is going to work.
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Old October 3rd, 2016, 05:23 PM   #84
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So once sites are vacant long enough they don't need to meet design standards?
Not to mention that you need at least $30/SF to fill new construction retail.
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Old October 3rd, 2016, 07:21 PM   #85
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Question, so what's the difference financially between retail vs residential space. If they were to rent it out then they would be profiting right? If they weren't able to rent it out for whatever reason wouldn't It be the somewhat similar to having empty residential space? I'm just wondering because don't most apts always have few res unit vacancies at any given time and wouldn't that be the same with retail.
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Old October 3rd, 2016, 08:04 PM   #86
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Retail is not a design standard. It actually impacts the bottom line of a property.
It most certainly is, to anyone who lives in the region. It affects the quality of life of people that live there or around there.

I know it affects the developer bottom's line, but that's not my problem. If they can't make the numbers work with design standards, then they don't get to build or they need to redesign and I'm fine with that.

This smells like illegal spot zoning.

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Maybe if a site sits long enough the design standards need to be looked at?
So by that logic most of Downtown should've waived their development standards by now? Or any urban neighborhood in Tampa for that matter.
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Last edited by FloridaFuture; October 3rd, 2016 at 08:48 PM. Reason: grammar
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Old October 4th, 2016, 05:04 PM   #87
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There are many factors here and from the residents point of view, commercial spaces are not always the most attractive.

One, they often bring unpredictable patrons to the building, you never know what sort of place may rent the space in the future. They also bring additional cars and traffic. Depending on the retail tenant, there are trash issues and if its a food provider there could also be cooking smells 'all the time'.

From the developers view, retail is sketchy and in this location it would probably not fill with a viable tenant right away. On top of that, you have to design around it, loading areas, dumpsters, grease traps....on and on for what may end up costing a lot more for less return.

This is hardly a dense part of town nor does it need to be. Focus on density in residential, there are plenty of locations for solid mixed uses downtown.
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Old October 4th, 2016, 05:37 PM   #88
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Hope this project is successful. But with all of the new projects under development/construction on Harbour Island, Channelside and downtown, this is the last location I would consider living in
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Old October 4th, 2016, 06:41 PM   #89
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I'm sure it will find tenants. The rents will just vary compared to the other areas.

I also see no reason why the city shouldn't require true mixed use. Sure, developers may balk at it and/or look elsewhere. There are plenty of other areas in the Bay area where the current design works. Let them build it there. It may seem off the beaten path today, but in the long run it won't be. As stated earlier, you have JBL Park reno coming, potential new highrise next to Straz, the Heights development and Franklin St. All of that will generate a lot of foot traffic and potential demand for retail. When those get built out we will think "Wow, missed opportunity here!" This will only further cement into people minds that this is a "car town." It doesn't have to be.

I get that it's a vacant wasteland right now. I understand the desire for instant gratification to see it developed. Even if this gets built I will look at the positives, but will always think it should be better. Take Aurora for example. It sucks for it's location, but I admit I am excited to see people there. However, I will always imagine a tower there when driving by on the crosstown.

I wish the city would set some firm criteria and stick to their guns. We don't need an Aurora 2.0 in DT.
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Old October 5th, 2016, 03:03 PM   #90
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Look at Noho area....that is just starting to transition with many old warehouses and vacant lots surrounding the new apartments and they are filling up as fast as they are completed.

Vintage lofts has been occupied for many years when it was hardly the up and coming neighborhood it is today.

This development will have no trouble with tenants.
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Old October 5th, 2016, 06:33 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by densitymatters View Post
Question, so what's the difference financially between retail vs residential space. If they were to rent it out then they would be profiting right? If they weren't able to rent it out for whatever reason wouldn't It be the somewhat similar to having empty residential space? I'm just wondering because don't most apts always have few res unit vacancies at any given time and wouldn't that be the same with retail.
Most apartment builders do not lease up retail very well. You also have to provide tenant improvement money and coordinate all of that. Then you have to figure out the right mix. Then you have different leases. I'm going to stop, but I could go on.

Retail is great, but if I can turn a 7,000 SF retail space into 10, 700SF apartments, then I'm going with the apartments all day long.
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Old October 5th, 2016, 06:36 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FloridaFuture View Post
It most certainly is, to anyone who lives in the region. It affects the quality of life of people that live there or around there.

I know it affects the developer bottom's line, but that's not my problem. If they can't make the numbers work with design standards, then they don't get to build or they need to redesign and I'm fine with that.

This smells like illegal spot zoning.



So by that logic most of Downtown should've waived their development standards by now? Or any urban neighborhood in Tampa for that matter.
My point being is not every freaking project needs retail nor does retail make sense everywhere. Every thing you have said about retail on this site is super speculative. If this park happens, if another project, if, if, if.

It isn't spot zoning. It would be a variance.
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Old October 5th, 2016, 07:42 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apartmentev View Post
Most apartment builders do not lease up retail very well. You also have to provide tenant improvement money and coordinate all of that. Then you have to figure out the right mix. Then you have different leases. I'm going to stop, but I could go on.

Retail is great, but if I can turn a 7,000 SF retail space into 10, 700SF apartments, then I'm going with the apartments all day long.
Which is exactly why the city needs to set a requirement to ensure a better result in the long term.
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Old October 6th, 2016, 03:06 PM   #94
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Set a requirement for who?

The few that think this is Times Square in NYC and want a metro utopia or the residents and developers who are not complaining about these developments?

The only reason you don't see a vast support from the other side is because its 'normal' and expected development. People aren't going to chime in when there is nothing unusual going on.
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Old October 6th, 2016, 10:10 PM   #95
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I love it when people use their ideology in place of easily verified facts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by apartmentev View Post
My point being is not every freaking project needs retail nor does retail make sense everywhere. Every thing you have said about retail on this site is super speculative. If this park happens, if another project, if, if, if.
"If" what? The riverwalk is built. JBL park is paid for, the contracts are in process. West River's redevelopment is underway. The Straz project is well on its way. Denholz' project on the surface lot next to the Times building is simply waiting for other projects to go first... Whether the interstate eventually has tolls on it or not, it IS getting improved through downtown, and that WILL involve a new exit at N Blvd which counts on the Laurel St bridge, period. There is no speculation, there is only the ignorance of outsiders who don't know what the hell they're talking about.

And if you can't see the the obvious need for walk-to attractions along the $40 million riverwalk we just built, then educate yourself until you do. Try ULI and CNU, they have reams of research publicly available.

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The few that think this is Times Square in NYC and want a metro utopia or the residents and developers who are not complaining about these developments?

The only reason you don't see a vast support from the other side is because its 'normal' and expected development. People aren't going to chime in when there is nothing unusual going on.
Which associations/residents do you know who support this project? Name names, or you're going to make people who read this thread think there is neighborhood support for this project, when in fact the neighborhood is on the record against it unanimously. Skypoint HOA, Laurel Place HOA, Art Center Lofts HOA and the River Arts District Neighborhood Association all opposed the project as proposed. Who do you claim to have talked to from these orgs who supports it?

Last edited by Jasonhouse; October 6th, 2016 at 10:17 PM.
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Old October 7th, 2016, 04:34 PM   #96
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How about just using the fact of leased space....let's look at the residential vacancy in all of these under par developments....If those people are unhappy, they shouldn't have leased the space right?

Or should we let some guy who lives in Pasco suburbs make the decision or some guy that lives in a townhome outside of the CBD?
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Old October 7th, 2016, 06:49 PM   #97
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I'm asking this as a serious question: should "neighborhood support" even matter in this discussion?

The reason why I ask is isn't Skypoint and Element residents against the building of AER? Aren't Harbor Island residents against the two towers currently being built on the island? I realize their complaints are for different reasons, but at the end of the day, should I care what neighboring (and competing) developments think?
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Old October 7th, 2016, 08:00 PM   #98
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Regarding the issue of residents being for or against different things in their neighborhood, I don't understand why we would have to play dumb and have this binary process whereby everything they say is either summarily ignored, or summarily taken as the gospel?

That's as dumb as having binary thinking on walkable development, whereby either all parcels have to have ground floor commercial, or none do.

Are any of you people capable of actually thinking with greater complexity than a light switch?
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Old October 7th, 2016, 08:09 PM   #99
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nevermind... I have better shit to do with my time.

Last edited by Jasonhouse; October 7th, 2016 at 08:28 PM.
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Old October 7th, 2016, 08:14 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TamBay View Post
I'm asking this as a serious question: should "neighborhood support" even matter in this discussion?

The reason why I ask is isn't Skypoint and Element residents against the building of AER? Aren't Harbor Island residents against the two towers currently being built on the island? I realize their complaints are for different reasons, but at the end of the day, should I care what neighboring (and competing) developments think?
Good question and the answer is probably no, you shouldn't care, because they're all acting in self-interest. But the flip side is, people need to and have a right to express their opinions so you end up doing a case by case basis on "are they opposing this for a good reason or a bad faith reason?" Here, I can't think of any adverse effect this project will have on Skypoint (ex. no views blocked) other then the design elements we're discussing here. It seems to me while that's still self-interest on exhibit, it's a "valid" self-interest because it's for the betterment of the neighborhood as a whole as oppose to something that only affects Skypoint.

But Jason was merely responding to the notion that "no one opposes this project" when in fact several groups of people do. He wasn't saying the project should've been stopped simply because the Skypoint HoA said so.
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