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Old October 23rd, 2017, 03:47 AM   #19761
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salif View Post
Any updates on how this is progressing? I'd be very interested to see how a British gauge double decker train would look and feel like. I'm assuming it would be a lot better than our previous attempt, the Claustrophobia MKI.
Sadly it seems to have gone quiet - there was talk of building a prototype vehicle. This would have a big effect on influential opinion formers if it really works. Even a single carriage pulled on a preserved railway would do the trick.

Aiming the Aeroliner 3000 at HS2 was a mistake IMHO, it is unlikely the extra seats will be needed there for a long time. The real need is for classic lines into our major cities and the crash regulations would be easier to meet for trains not needing to exceed 115mph.
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Old October 23rd, 2017, 10:28 AM   #19762
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I read they were seeking partners in the UK to help take it forward, so I'm guessing they've struggled with that part. Targeting it at the classic network would be much more of a quick win. HS2 will be fine with captive double decker stock and single deck CC stock, especially if platforms are lengthened.
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Old October 23rd, 2017, 12:43 PM   #19763
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From the latest HS2 released capacity study

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Originally Posted by Vulcan's Finest View Post
63 minutes is to Curzon St, calling at Runcorn and Crewe (125mph timings) then using HS2 tracks. The train would then reverse and head to Birmingham Interchange, creating a third service every hour from Curzon Street.
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The two legs of HS2, when built, will have some spare capacity – 2 train paths/hour on the western leg north of Birmingham and 4 train paths/hour on the eastern leg north of Birmingham1 . Subject to there being sufficient demand, there would be scope to use this to add further passenger services beyond those assumed in the HS2 economic appraisals, enhancing connectivity and capacity further and adding to project benefits. Increasing service levels will have to be weighed against the performance impacts of increasing capacity utilisation.

On the western side, there is the possibility of introducing a Liverpool – Birmingham HS2 service, speeding up the journey time between these two cities significantly. Depending in the detail of arrangements at the planned Crewe Hub station, it would also be possible to add further services onto the Phase 2b leg between Crewe and Manchester (Piccadilly). Where these additional services use relatively short sections of HS2 (as in the case), use of 230km/h ‘Javelin-style’ rolling stock would be acceptable since there would little impact on overall route capacity. Transport for the North are also investigating options for Liverpool to Manchester services which could involve using part of HS2.

Spare capacity could be used in the case of the Leeds – Sheffield section of HS2 Phase 2b where it is a key aspiration of Transport for the North to improve journey times and connectivity. Four fast trains per hour would appear to be achievable over this section, with a variety of service concepts possible.

More generally on the eastern leg, additional services to/from Birmingham Curzon Street would be possible, including a fast service to Leeds (in addition to those running via Sheffield) as well as serving new destinations that can be reached via Sheffield. There are also other potentially valuable options identified that become possible with some adaptations either to the HS2 service concepts or if additional connectivity to the existing network is provided.
It appears that the next iteration of the HS2 service patterns is likely to show considerably more services into Birmingham along the Western and Eastern arms; very likely including a Liverpool - Brum service. But it seems that HS2 Ltd are thinking in terms of two, rather than three, services per hour; there must be limitations in respect of platform capacity at Curzon Street, over and above those along the eastern ánd western arms.

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...ary-report.pdf
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Old October 23rd, 2017, 02:35 PM   #19764
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that report is really interesting. I forgot it was published before the summer.
Quote:
Six scenarios were developed and explored:
  1. Regular Interval Timetables: Enhancing London services for the principal intermediate stations on the WCML and ECML, providing a higher frequency service between these stations and much improved cross-network connectivity
  2. New London Destinations: Introducing new London intercity services and/or improving services to stations that currently receive fewer than 4 return services a day
  3. Recast Cross-country: Taking a strategic look at the existing long distance Cross-Country network and identifying opportunities to enhance existing services and (where feasible) extend services to new markets. This opportunity arises in part because the eastern leg of HS2 Phase 2b follows the key NE/SW Cross country corridor
  4. London Commuter: Enhancing commuter services on the ECML and considering extensions to new destinations in peak hours (Note: WCML London commuter services fall outside the scope of this study as they are delivered at Phase 1 of HS2)
  5. Enhanced Regional/Local Services: Reflecting initiatives and ambitions of sub-national bodies to enhance local and commuter services into Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds
  6. Freight: Using released freight paths to add new long distance freight services on the WCML and ECML.
Any of these has the potential to be game-changing for the classic lines.
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Old October 23rd, 2017, 06:55 PM   #19765
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"Use of 230km/h ‘Javelin-style’ rolling stock would be acceptable since there would little impact on overall route capacity"....

Hmm.... not sure about the accuracy of that statement, not at all. Between Crewe south and approaching the Birmingham Junctions at Water Orton there would be roughly 40 miles of unrestricted running.

A 'Javelin / IET type train at 230 km/h (142mph) would take almost 17 minutes to cover those 40 miles.
For a HS2 train averaging 320 km/h (200mph) that distance would take 12 minutes.

So the slow train would waste almost three HS2 paths just in that short distance.

My 63 minute timing from Liverpool to Brum assumes the use of a proper HS2 unit capable of at least 330 km/h - add 5 minutes for a slower AT300.
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Old October 23rd, 2017, 07:18 PM   #19766
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nerd View Post
It appears that the next iteration of the HS2 service patterns is likely to show considerably more services into Birmingham along the Western and Eastern arms; very likely including a Liverpool - Brum service. But it seems that HS2 Ltd are thinking in terms of two, rather than three, services per hour; there must be limitations in respect of platform capacity at Curzon Street, over and above those along the eastern ánd western arms.
From memory Curzon Street will have seven platforms, which seems plenty for what is currently showing as nine departures an hour (3x Euston, 2x Man, 1x Scotland, 2x Leeds, 1x Newcastle). Certainly room for an extra 1 TPH to Liverpool. I would like to see 1 TPH to Nottingham via Toton as well. That would bring Curzon Street close to capacity unless regional services were 'double stacked' in the platforms.

The one that in my mind is sub-optimal is Manchester Piccadilly - with just four HS2 platforms. Unless of course the Brum - Manchester trains continue underground at Piccadilly onto NPR tracks....
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Old October 23rd, 2017, 08:04 PM   #19767
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vulcan's Finest View Post
"Use of 230km/h ‘Javelin-style’ rolling stock would be acceptable since there would little impact on overall route capacity

They are mentioning it for Crewe-Piccadilly though. Is there argument appropriate there?
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Old October 23rd, 2017, 08:40 PM   #19768
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They are mentioning it for Crewe-Piccadilly though. Is there argument appropriate there?

It's far less important on that section as about 50% of the distance (about 30 miles Crewe-Piccadilly) will be restricted to 142mph or less. In fact only the 2TPH from London to Scotland will be at full speed from passing under Crewe to passing the Manchester branch junction.

However I see no proposals to run slower HS2 trains starting at Crewe along HS2 to Piccadilly/Golbourne. They are starting at Curzon St. You could I guess have an hourly AT300 service from Coventry/New St/Wolverhampton/Stafford using HS2 metals from Crewe to Piccadilly.
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Old October 23rd, 2017, 09:05 PM   #19769
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October 16th 2016. I posted this in regards to the supposed 'bottleneck' from Crewe to Weaver Junction, which certain posters made out to be such a huge problem. Post 16860, http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...23318&page=843

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On the seven mile stretch in question between Winsford and Weaver Jcn, the future use of more powerful electric locos, longer trains (up to 775m length) and modern 4-aspect signalling (reduced headways/more paths) could combine to give a lot more freight capacity even during the busy daylight hours. And of course this leads on to another key point - passenger train capacity tends to be defined by the need to push through an awful lot of trains in a peak period lasting a couple of hours five days a week. Freight is far less time constrained, it can (and often does) run in the evening and through the night when passengers trains are minimal.
And now these snippets from that Steer Davies Gleave report for the DFT (linked earlier by Nerd) published 9 months later. Spot the similarities! And now it becomes clear what Higgins was talking about in 2014 when he told the Commons Select Committee that freight capacity to Liverpool needed to be addressed.

Quote:
With Phase 2a, the capacity gain extends to Crewe. Subject to signalling renewal plans for the Crewe area currently planned for completion during Control Period 6, it would be possible to add freight capacity between Crewe and Weaver Junction. This would mean that from Phase 2a completion in 2027, the additional freight capacity on offer would extend from London to the Liverpool area in which there are several important freight terminals.
Quote:
On the WCML north of Weaver Junction to Scotland, the key opportunity would be to switch freight traffic to electric haulage (or possibly double-hauled diesel locomotives), reducing freight journey times.
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Old October 24th, 2017, 12:06 AM   #19770
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Leeds to benefit from another spin-off from high speed rail.

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Leeds University is investing £10m in a new Institute for High Speed Rail that will focus on the design, manufacture and integration of high speed rail infrastructure.
Quote:

Featuring a vehicle system test facility, the institute will be located close to the HS2 rolling stock depot to the east of Leeds, and will provide both undergraduate and postgraduate courses. Areas of research will include foundations and track, traction systems, braking and energy harvesting, sensor technology and digital systems.
More here:
https://www.theengineer.co.uk/leeds-...gh-speed-rail/
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Old October 24th, 2017, 01:19 AM   #19771
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vulcan's Finest View Post
It's far less important on that section as about 50% of the distance (about 30 miles Crewe-Piccadilly) will be restricted to 142mph or less. In fact only the 2TPH from London to Scotland will be at full speed from passing under Crewe to passing the Manchester branch junction.

However I see no proposals to run slower HS2 trains starting at Crewe along HS2 to Piccadilly/Golbourne. They are starting at Curzon St. You could I guess have an hourly AT300 service from Coventry/New St/Wolverhampton/Stafford using HS2 metals from Crewe to Piccadilly.
Quote:
On the western side, there is the possibility of introducing a Liverpool – Birmingham HS2 service, speeding up the journey time between these two cities significantly. Depending in the detail of arrangements at the planned Crewe Hub station, it would also be possible to add further services onto the Phase 2b leg between Crewe and Manchester (Piccadilly). Where these additional services use relatively short sections of HS2 (as in the case), use of 230km/h ‘Javelin-style’ rolling stock would be acceptable since there would little impact on overall route capacity. Transport for the North are also investigating options for Liverpool to Manchester services which could involve using part of HS2.
The section above implies to me that they are talking of Crewe to Manchester 'Javelin' services in addition to additional services to Birmingham Curzon Street, although as you say they could be run on WCML tracks south of Crewe. The alternative is that NPR uses 'Javelin' type vehicles, and that some of these terminate at Crewe.
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Old October 24th, 2017, 01:29 AM   #19772
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So train nerds, where is all this supposed demand for Manchester services actually going to come from?
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Old October 24th, 2017, 02:09 AM   #19773
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Why single out Manchester? HS2 will provide far more capacity to every city it serves than is currently needed. The whole premise of HS2 is that demand for long distance rail will continue to increase, that's where the demand is coming from in Manchester as in any other city.
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Old October 24th, 2017, 09:07 AM   #19774
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http://www.railtechnologymagazine.co...ays-dft-report

HS2 currently running under budget
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Old October 24th, 2017, 11:25 AM   #19775
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Quote:
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So train nerds, where is all this supposed demand for Manchester services actually going to come from?
There is currently 1.4 million sqft of office space currently under construction in Manchester against a backdrop of 5 million sqft pipeline. That's just today! We could have another 20 million sqft delivered by the time HS2 is complete.

Greater Manchester's population is due to hit 3 million by the mid 2020s, up from 2.8 million now - and 2.4 million in 2001.

I realise these are just raw figures and don't necessarily translate into solid demand for HS2, but seeing as your original post was trolling anyway I doubt you care about the facts presented before you.
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Old October 24th, 2017, 11:46 AM   #19776
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Wow.

Seriously unimpressive figures.

Why all the extra office floor space? Where are all these extra jobs coming from, exactly? Or are they not new jobs at all and just pinched from other places?
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Old October 24th, 2017, 12:31 PM   #19777
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Wow.

Seriously unimpressive figures.

Why all the extra office floor space? Where are all these extra jobs coming from, exactly? Or are they not new jobs at all and just pinched from other places?


Private sector companies making the private sector decision to locate to or expand in Manchester. Read more here: https://www.placenorthwest.co.uk/new...-400000-sq-ft/
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Old October 24th, 2017, 12:42 PM   #19778
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The whole premise of HS2 is that demand for long distance rail will continue to increase, that's where the demand is coming from in Manchester as in any other city.
I'm pretty sure that they are happy to gold plate it a bit given it will take nearly 200 years to bypass the classic WCML with HS2 and so HS2 ought to be future-proofed a little wrt a very long future!
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Old October 24th, 2017, 01:18 PM   #19779
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Major projects commonly do run under budget in their early stages; simply due to delayed works (or delayed payment). In this case, a big chunk is in delays in land acquisition.
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Old October 24th, 2017, 01:37 PM   #19780
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Major projects commonly do run under budget in their early stages; simply due to delayed works (or delayed payment). In this case, a big chunk is in delays in land acquisition.
One would hope that a claim to be under budget would be based only on the completed tasks that have been paid for. Otherwise every project is running under budget right until the money is all used up.....
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