The Strait of Messina Bridge - The longest suspension Bridge in the world (3300m)

[Qtya]

I truly hope this bridge gets to be built!

[Eddard Stark]

Originally Posted by Sal73x

I know that I'm a crap translator but hope it helps for those that doesn't speak italian

With only 5 daily trains left crossing the strait and with more cuts from railways comming in the next years (trains Sicily-Milan/Turin/Venice will go leaving only the train Sicily-Rome) this bridge has even less sense.....

From a railways point of view it makes almost no sense, it's true. The demand of travel by train is only between Rome and Sicily, and even that will be a hard sell compared to airplanes

Trains Milan-Sicily make no sense at all, good thing they are scrapping them.

The bridge makes (some) sense only for cars honestly (or mostly for them) and even that is not so necessary, given that there are many means to reach Sicily (airplane, ferry in messina, ferry from naples and so on) which are more convenient or as convenient

But we chose to build it. It's a engineering marvel. It will be a marvel. Let's just build it and worry about it's usage later. I still hope one day Sicily will become a developed region with a much higher demand for transport making the bridge useful

[gramercy]

LETS DO THIS THING!

[Eddard Stark]

Originally Posted by gramercy

LETS DO THIS THING!

at this point unless Berlusconi is unseated in the next year I think it will happen

[Sal73x]

Originally Posted by Eddard Stark

But we chose to build it. It's a engineering marvel. It will be a marvel. Let's just build it and worry about it's usage later. I still hope one day Sicily will become a developed region with a much higher demand for transport making the bridge useful

Originally Posted by Eddard Stark

at this point unless Berlusconi is unseated in the next year I think it will happen

Sorry Eddard, but when you say "we" who do you mean?

As far as I know the Sicilians don't put the bridge between the priorities of the island (including me, am Sicilian), so it's not them.

Do you mean Berlusconi and you?
because if this bridge is getting built it's only for the megalomania of Berlusconi,
just a 6 billions penis-extension for a little guy who has lots of unresolt issues!

Sorry Eddard but you can't just say "Let's just build it and worry about it's usage later"
because something like this bridge needs planning, from today to the next 100 years.

What's the point to spend 6 bln for an infrastructure that "maybe" wont be used, or wont be used to its full potential?
what's the point of re-directing billions of money (whereever they are from) from vital/essential infrastructures of the island
and concentrating them on something unessential?

Yes, the project is marvelous,
is it worth the price that Sicily will pay? I don't think so...

[gramercy]

Originally Posted by Sal73x

What's the point to spend 6 bln for an infrastructure that "maybe" wont be used, or wont be used to its full potential?
what's the point of re-directing billions of money (whereever they are from) from vital/essential infrastructures of the island
and concentrating them on something unessential?

Yes, the project is marvelous,
is it worth the price that Sicily will pay? I don't think so...

what's the point of the millau bridge? they could have built a smaller one, they could have built the highway on an alternate route

what's the point of building an 800 m high tower in the DESERT where there is plenty of space available for free

i tell you
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMAz7zQ5yKA
(from 4:30)

every once in a while you gotta take a f.in chance, you gotta LIVE a little
we are humans and what makes us human is that we challenge ourselves, we do what is undoable

even if it costs some money...

i'd hate to live in a world of accountants

[Qtya]

Totally agreed! Great video gramercy!

I really hope Berlusconi wont be unseated...

[Eddard Stark]

Originally Posted by Sal73x

Sorry Eddard, but when you say "we" who do you mean?

As far as I know the Sicilians don't put the bridge between the priorities of the island (including me, am Sicilian), so it's not them.

Do you mean Berlusconi and you?
because if this bridge is getting built it's only for the megalomania of Berlusconi,
just a 6 billions penis-extension for a little guy who has lots of unresolt issues!

Sorry Eddard but you can't just say "Let's just build it and worry about it's usage later"
because something like this bridge needs planning, from today to the next 100 years.

What's the point to spend 6 bln for an infrastructure that "maybe" wont be used, or wont be used to its full potential?
what's the point of re-directing billions of money (whereever they are from) from vital/essential infrastructures of the island
and concentrating them on something unessential?

Yes, the project is marvelous,
is it worth the price that Sicily will pay? I don't think so...

We as we italians. I am not sicilian and I never voted for Berlusconi (i am left-wing). However my government chose to build it, at this point it's pointless to be against it. By the way...Sicily will not pay for it (almost nothing). Italy will pay as a whole (and europe too...20% of the bill)


Overdimensioned---today

The sense of my post is that - as it is - the bridge is surely overdimensioned for Sicily and it's demand of railway/street traffic. However hopefully one day Sicily will not be poor as it is now, the bridge will become "efficient" than. In Dubai surely 20 years ago did not need the infrastructures they built...they did it anyway.

A symbol

I may agree there were better priorities but peoples live also for symbols. Italy needs a symbol for a new path for growth. The italian south needs to demonstrate it can do world-class adventures.

And so be it. Let's start on this difficult road and see what lies in front of us. Better the ones that dare to build than the ones that dare not.

[michaelII]

what the italian south needs is a perfect transport system.
up until now most of the region is heavily car dependent, which already costs now a lot of money and will get even more expensive as for example the costs for the raw materials will increase.
and all this in a region where a lot of people struggle to make it through the month with their wages.
one of the arguments pro-bridge i constantly here is that you might gain 1-2 hours because you don't have to wait for the ferrys any more. and i'm not even mentioning that the ferrys are up to 40 years old and it might be enough just to buy new and faster ones. don't know if they even need bigger ones.
but those 1-2 hours you gain because of the bridge you'll lose in sicily or calabria because neither the train net nor the other transport networks are sufficient. in my opinion the mobility has to be increased within the cities palermo, catania, messina, ... and between those cities and not between messina and reggio.
now that would really effect the lives and the economy of the region and would save some money for those who have to pay attention to their spendings.
the bridge instead ... as i read and i'm not sure whether that is true or not ... will be funded with private money and than the state will rebuy the bridge over some timespan. now if that's true and i put this together with the other things my scepticism is even growing.

[LUCAFUSAR]

Originally Posted by michaelII

no, i don't misunderstand you. as i said. a total contractor deal is completely against the eu laws.
it would eliminate competition and transparence.

Ah, O.K. my fault...got it. However, this is a useless project, in my opinion. There are more useful projects to do in Italy.

[LUCAFUSAR]

Originally Posted by michaelII

what the italian south needs is a perfect transport system.
up until now most of the region is heavily car dependent, which already costs now a lot of money and will get even more expensive as for example the costs for the raw materials will increase.
and all this in a region where a lot of people struggle to make it through the month with their wages.
one of the arguments pro-bridge i constantly here is that you might gain 1-2 hours because you don't have to wait for the ferrys any more. and i'm not even mentioning that the ferrys are up to 40 years old and it might be enough just to buy new and faster ones. don't know if they even need bigger ones.
but those 1-2 hours you gain because of the bridge you'll lose in sicily or calabria because neither the train net nor the other transport networks are sufficient. in my opinion the mobility has to be increased within the cities palermo, catania, messina, ... and between those cities and not between messina and reggio.
now that would really effect the lives and the economy of the region and would save some money for those who have to pay attention to their spendings.
the bridge instead ... as i read and i'm not sure whether that is true or not ... will be funded with private money and than the state will rebuy the bridge over some timespan. now if that's true and i put this together with the other things my scepticism is even growing.

I absolutely agree.

[Sal73x]

Originally Posted by LUCAFUSAR

Ah, O.K. my fault...got it. However, this is a useless project, in my opinion. There are more useful projects to do in Italy.

I absolutely agree.

[gramercy]

sorry guys, but this is the kind of cant-do attitude that is pulling europe back with the exception of switzerland, spain and france

look at the germans and the austrians: they have OODLES of cash yet they will NOT build 300-360 kph rail, no...it takes them 20 goddamn years to build 1-200 kms of 250 kph (i'm referring to the karlsruhe-wien connection)

look at the british who havent been able to put together a high-speed rail network in 40 years

this is exactly why europe will fall behind asia, we are just too tight-fisted


i mean, italy is a ~2300 billion dollar / year economy
and you are telling me that a 6 billion bridge that will be built over 6 years (1 bn a year) and will stand there for HUNDREDS of years is too costly?

lets say 1 or 2 bn euros of those 6 will never be returned

so what????? italy is a 2300 bn dollar economy a YEAR

[Sal73x]

Originally Posted by gramercy

sorry guys, but this is the kind of cant-do attitude that is pulling europe back with the exception of switzerland, spain and france

look at the germans and the austrians: they have OODLES of cash yet they will NOT build 300-360 kph rail, no...it takes them 20 goddamn years to build 1-200 kms of 250 kph (i'm referring to the karlsruhe-wien connection)

this is exactly why europe will fall behind asia, we are just too tight-fisted


i mean, italy is a ~2300 billion dollar / year economy
and you are telling me that a 6 billion bridge that will be built over 6 years (1 bn a year) and will stand there for HUNDREDS of years is too costly?

lets say 1 or 2 bn euros of those 6 will never be returned

so what????? italy is a 2300 bn dollar economy a YEAR

Do you live in Italy?
Have you tryied to cross Sicily?
or go from Naples to Messina?
any idea what is public transport in southern Italy?

Italy maybe on paper looks like has a healthy economy, the reality is that in Italy families are struggling to get o the end of the month because a shit economy that pushed italian wages to the lowest in Europe but pushed prices to the highest. I live in the UK and earn twice as much as I would earn in Italy and spend 30% less of what I would pay in Italy.

I visit Sicily few times a year and I can assure you that without a car in Sicily you are quite fxxked because the public transport is limited to a parassitic system of bus-lines that live on regional founding.

The motorways that get used daily from Messina to Catania, Messina to Palermo, Reggio to Naples were all designed and built (mostly) in the 1970s and are in a ridiculous state. Will they complete the owned maintenace on these roads by 2016? hehehe no chance

Will they compete the missing roads in Sicily by 2016? Catania-Ragusa, Caltanissetta-Agrigento, Sciacca-Palermo, Siracusa-Gela? again, no chance

Will they complete the double-track railway from Messina to Palermo and from Messina to Catania? Hehehe no chance

All the above infrastructures are needed now, well before the bridge, they are already late for this roads and railways.

Can Italy afford this bridge?...definietly NOT.

[Glodenox]

Originally Posted by gramercy

what's the point of the millau bridge? they could have built a smaller one, they could have built the highway on an alternate route

Have you seen the region? I personally haven't, but I can easily see on Google Earth that within at least 19 kilometres there's no alternative to place the bridge... There are some spaces where the length of the bridge would've been much shorter, but I assume those were just too windy or didn't have the proper soil for a bridge.

The point of the Millau bridge is quite obvious: alleviate the serious and dangerous traffic problems in Millau and fix the only gap within "La Méridienne" (that's the name of the highway).

Greetings,
Glodenox

[Sal73x]

Originally Posted by gramercy

and you are telling me that a 6 billion bridge that will be built over 6 years (1 bn a year) and will stand there for HUNDREDS of years is too costly?

We also need to add that the cost for the Millau bridge, as far as I know, was less than € 500 mlns......not € 6 billions.

Having lived in Italy for over 18 years I seriously dout that this bridge will be built in 6 years,
we don't even know when they will start, and overall, if 6 billions will be enough.

Central France is not at risk of earthquakes as it is the "Strait of Messina", stand there for HUNDREDS of years....
will see, we will talk after the first earthquake.
Sicily has regular small earthquakes every year, and big earthquakes (5 to 7 Richter) every 5-8 yeras, it might survive the first 2 or 3...

[Matthieu]

Originally Posted by gramercy

what's the point of the millau bridge? they could have built a smaller one, they could have built the highway on an alternate route

Nope, there used to be an alternate route, going down the city of Millau, and it was disastrous. The whole area is canyons and gorges so if you want a straight and quick way a tall viaduct is the only solution.

As a matter of fact, the viaduct is a high commercial success enjoying a bigger use rate than first anticipated.

[gramercy]

Originally Posted by Matthieu

Nope, there used to be an alternate route, going down the city of Millau, and it was disastrous. The whole area is canyons and gorges so if you want a straight and quick way a tall viaduct is the only solution.

i realize all that, but as J/C says in the video, they could have built the highway elsewhere, lower down with tunnels or several dozen kms away
i'm sure the bridge wasnt the only alternative considered

As a matter of fact, the viaduct is a high commercial success enjoying a bigger use rate than first anticipated.

i never said it wasnt

[gramercy]

Originally Posted by Sal73x

We also need to add that the cost for the Millau bridge, as far as I know, was less than € 500 mlns......not € 6 billions.

fine, now take a look at the cost of the Gotthard Base Tunnel, the Channel Tunnel or the proposed Brenner Base Tunnel (incidentally, also 6bn)
so you see there ARE plenty of projects in this price range

Having lived in Italy for over 18 years I seriously dout that this bridge will be built in 6 years,
we don't even know when they will start, and overall, if 6 billions will be enough.

i dont doubt this, i will just add, that the longer it takes, the less money / year..., or if the cost increases with it, the money/year may remain the same

Central France is not at risk of earthquakes as it is the "Strait of Messina", stand there for HUNDREDS of years....
will see, we will talk after the first earthquake.
Sicily has regular small earthquakes every year, and big earthquakes (5 to 7 Richter) every 5-8 yeras, it might survive the first 2 or 3...

fine, now look at Akashi-Kaikyo and the earthquake that shifted the bridge while it was under construction


naysayers and nimbys always find excuses

i seriously doubt (even in italy) that they would build the bridge without sufficiently planning for the earthquakes and the possible effects over hundred(s) of years

it will be very tough, sure
but i refuse to believe for a second that it is impossible

[michaelII]

so you would do it because it is technically possible and because it's big and spectacular and bling bling with a lot of superlatives?
or do you wanna do it because you have enough money to spend and you think with this investment you have done the best for the majority of the people and the society?
in other words: is this about satisfying your need for bling bling and to impress the asians with our new european superbridge or do you wanna solve the daily problems of the local people?