Beautiful stadiums

[nomarandlee]

Originally Posted by bigbossman

Yeah when they bring them themselves, and they are spontanious. No greater sight than an end with lots of different flags and scarves swaying in unision imho.

Not when the club choreographs fan support, like Chelsea and Arsenal want to do, and have tried to do. When you see 40,000 or 60,000 people waving identical flags in unison it just smacks of corporatism and lameness. It's not football.

They tell us to sit down, they tell us what flags and scarves to sing, what next they'll tell us which songs to sing or to be quiet (even more)?

I am guessing they deem some songs to be in "bad taste" or something? I think it would be hard for them control what songs are sung.

I really don't gget it, although I know you don't have a culture of singing at games. But is that because they never let you get a culture like that? Or is it that the PA announcers wanted to fill in the gaps in noise?

No, I don't think there has ever been any kind of prohibitions against it of any sort at least that I know of.
I think the PA noise started with dead time between innings/quarters/periods during games in which teams felt they wanted to give entertainment and market to their fans. In the NHL/NBA especially they have convinced themselves that we are all completely ADD and need the biggest video boards and loudest sound effects in order to be entertained.

[bigbossman]

Originally Posted by nomarandlee

I am guessing they deem some songs to be in "bad taste" or something? I think it would be hard for them control what songs are sung.

well trhey are trying to ban the arsene wenger is a paedo song, they want to get rid of all discrimanatory chanting, and a lot of people don't like the abusive chanting although I find that exceptable if it's in jest (it's better to be abusive than insulting).

But it's basically a drive to create a glossy product to sell to the world, basically it all boils down to money.

No, I don't think there has ever been any kind of prohibitions against it of any sort at least that I know of.
I think the PA noise started with dead time between innings/quarters/periods during games in which teams felt they wanted to give entertainment and market to their fans. In the NHL/NBA especially they have convinced themselves that we are all completely ADD and need the biggest video boards and loudest sound effects in order to be entertained.

Yeah there were quite a few reports about the NBA game in London (in our "quality" newspapers). Less so on the game more on the entertainment. They talked about juggling midgets and stiltwalkers.

It's just alien to us, it might be to with the whole customer/supporter culture. In america the teams see their fans as customers and do all they can to make sure they are enjoying it, in Europe we are supporters and the clubs don't do anything. I know when ever an owner/chairman/media call fans customers there is a lot of backlash, it seems it was always a "you know what time kick off is, if you don't turn up we won't miss you" sort of attitude.
When I watch the marketing of american sports I now see where the premier league gets it from.

isn't that why people like college sports, because of the authenticity?

[nomarandlee]

Yea, the college crowds just seem to be better. Part of that is because they often have a younger demographic are more affordable for the average fan.

There is more of a grass roots non-commercial aspect to most college sports but even with the cheerleaders and bands even college sports often have the accompanying entertainment. It is an entertainment which has more of a tradition and authentic, even if it can come come off as a bit hokey, compared to the commercial video/sound blitz .

[bigbossman]

the only "band" i can think of over here is the official England band, who go to all the games (I think they are wednesday fans). I know they are despised with their constant and annoying renditions of the great escape them tune.

Yeah the cheerleader thing i still don't get. A few clubs have them over here but they are usually a rag tag bunch of to put it kindly, women not blessed in the looks department. Although mexican cheerleaders....

Question... other than stand there and look pretty and do a dance what do cheerleaders actually contribute? Do people actually watch them every time they get up and do their thing?

[nomarandlee]

Originally Posted by bigbossman

Question... other than stand there and look pretty and do a dance what do cheerleaders actually contribute? Do people actually watch them every time they get up and do their thing?

What greater virtue could be there then doing a dance and looking pretty? In short, not much else. I could do without them personally but they don't hurt any I suppose.

I would say the vast majority do not watch them in any length unless if it is real boring game and some of their are super hot. My football team (Chicago Bears) got rid of their cheerleaders in the 80's. In college sports they and the band are much more a right of passage you could say.

[parcdesprinces]

Originally Posted by bigbossman

and the clubs don't do anything.

Even selling season tickets of the "Virages" (behind-the-goal stands) in Marseille .

Is it like ticket touts who buy tickets to sell on?

a kind of, but it's official !! (weird, but official) and, as far I know, only Marseille has such a system in France (where supporter associations sell tickets to other supporters... )

What are the prices like? How do the clubs make income off there stands?

Marseille season-tickets 09/10, Virages (sold by the supp. associations): approx. €190/£170/$282 (Ligue 1+FA & League cups+Champions League)
By comparison: Other stands (except suites & business seats) : from €300/£268/$445 to €850/£759/$1262 (Ligue 1+FA & League cups+CL)

For example, here are PSG' prices (the most expensive in France/L1) :
Virages (20% of Parc des Prince): €275/£246/$408 (Ligue 1+FA & League cups)
Other stands (corner included, except "suites" & business seats) : from €410/£366/$609 to €1900/£1698/$2821 (Ligue 1+FA & League cups)


About how the club (OM) makes its income:
The club sells all the tickets of the Virages (priced by the club but after arrangements with the supporter associations) to these supporter groups/associations who become the exclusive sellers. Then these groups sell (with a profit margin of course) to the people who want to buy a season ticket in these stands/Virages (40% of Vélodrome: approx. 25,000 seats) !!!!!
That makes me think to Mafia/Camora... !
Marseille sells 42/45,000 season tickets each year and more than a half is managed by the supp. associations.....

I'd always thought it was behind the goal...

It's quite unique indeed, and that's a characteristic of Lens and Valenciennes Kops/popular stands.

Lens:

so you don't mean proper terracing then?

Well, they asked to their clubs (Lens & Valenciennes), which asked to the league, to have a "standing tier" and they will have it, apparently.. how exactly ??? I don't know, but IMO it will be like in Germany....

lol but PSG are still the best

No comment !

Look at the Man United fans who boycotted the club when Glazer become owner, Man united just replaced them with more tourists.

Not surprising ! (I knew about that and also about FC United)
Anyway that's the price to pay for being the most famous league in the world.....

In France, they could never replace the real supporters by "tourists"..... So that's also why our supporters can face public administrations/clubs etc !

-------------------

unless you work for the post office or London underground.

I lived in London several months and I remember very well a strike in the London Underground.. I thought I was back in France !

[parcdesprinces]

Originally Posted by bigbossman

so you don't mean proper terracing then?

About that, I forgot to mention Metz (L2) & Rennes (L1) which already have obtained "terracing" back (in small parts of their "Virages") !!

Metz:


Rennes:



About Lens :

L’un des principaux enjeux de ce nouvel antre lensois concerne un retour aux places debout en tribune Marek. Sensibilisé sur l’aspect de la sécurité, Gervais Martel a réitéré son envie de faire avancer le dossier des tribunes rétractables comme il en existe déjà en Allemagne. Cette évolution est d’ailleurs intégrée dans le cahier des charges mis en place par les architectes. Si dans certains stades comme à Metz, Rennes ou Saint-Etienne, la situation a évolué ces derniers temps avec le retrait de certains sièges ; au Racing, on souhaite y ajouter une dose de modernité.

lensois.com

Essentially: The owner of RC Lens (Gervais Martel) said that he wanted "German style terraces" and (apparently) this is planned with the refurbishment of Stade Bollaert !!!

[Buffalo]

Originally Posted by bigbossman

Erm I don't mean middle aged and rich. Middle aged and/or rich. The ticket prices and demand would suggest if you are outside of this demographic you are unlikely to be going to games regularly if ever.

Basically how many of those young people are from a lower class demographic?

Another thing to consider is the size of the market, in the small ones, such as Buffalo, the average price for a game is about $50 while in Dallas and New England a game costs well over $100. I would say about half of the people at Bills games are 25 and under but there is not support for that.

and speaking of beautiful stadiums, the ralph isnt so bad on the inside, the outside is a different story.

[bigbossman]

Originally Posted by Buffalo

Another thing to consider is the size of the market, in the small ones, such as Buffalo, the average price for a game is about $50 while in Dallas and New England a game is well over $100. I would save about half of the people are bills games are 25 and under but there is not support for that.

That's the thing Buffalo is a small market in the american sense, but in the European sense it is a largish market. It'd probably have 2-3 teams in most European countries.

and speaking of beautiful stadiums, the ralph isnt so bad on the inside, the outside is a different story.

I do like ralph wilson lots of character.

[bigbossman]

Originally Posted by parcdesprinces

Even selling season tickets of the "Virages" (behind-the-goal stands) in Marseille .

a kind of, but it's official !! (weird, but official) and, as far I know, only Marseille has such a system in France (where supporter associations sell tickets to other supporters... )

I think some clubs do it in Italy and south America

Marseille season-tickets 09/10, Virages (sold by the supp. associations): approx. €190/£170/$282 (Ligue 1+FA & League cups+Champions League)
By comparison: Other stands (except suites & business seats) : from €300/£268/$445 to €850/£759/$1262 (Ligue 1+FA & League cups+CL)

For example, here are PSG' prices (the most expensive in France/L1) :
Virages (20% of Parc des Prince): €275/£246/$408 (Ligue 1+FA & League cups)
Other stands (corner included, except "suites" & business seats) : from €410/£366/$609 to €1900/£1698/$2821 (Ligue 1+FA & League cups)

Best premier league figures I could find...

ARSENAL

2008-09: £855 - £1,825
2009-10: Price freeze

ASTON VILLA

2008-09: £265 - £510
2009-10: £295 - £510

BLACKBURN

2008-09: £249 - £439
2009-10: Prices TBC

BOLTON

2008-09: £299 - £449
2009-10: Prices TBC

CHELSEA

2008-09: £660 - £1,150
2009-10: Prices TBC

EVERTON

2008-09: £503 - £603
2009-10: £399 - £586

FULHAM

2008-09: £299 - £779
2009-10: Prices TBC

HULL

2008-09: £380 - £450
2009-10: Price freeze

LIVERPOOL

2008-09: £650 - £750
2009-10: Prices TBC

MAN CITY

2008-09: £388 - £626
2009-10: Price freeze/possible discount

MAN UTD

2008-09: £494 - £912
2009-10: Prices TBC

MIDDLESBROUGH

2008-09: £390 - £550
2009-10: Prices TBC

NEWCASTLE

2008-09: £330 - £658
2009-10: £300 - £598

PORTSMOUTH

2008-09: £600 - £925
2009-10: £500 - £900

STOKE

2008-09: £334 - £499
2009-10: Prices TBC

SUNDERLAND

2008-09: £415 - £525
2009-10: £350 - £465

TOTTENHAM

2008-09: £635 - £1,675
2009-10: Price freeze

WEST BROM

2008-09: £299 - £399
2009-10: Prices TBC

WEST HAM

2008-09: £615 - £885
2009-10: Prices TBC

WIGAN

2008-09: £250 - £295
2009-10: Prices TBC

match day (selected)

Arsenal: Category A Matches (£48 - £94) / Category B Matches (£33 - £66)

Chelsea: £45 - £65

Liverpool: Cat A (£28 - £39) / Cat B (£26 - £37)

Manchester United: £27-£49

I am still surprised that PSG can't sell out though?

Crystal palace (15,220 08/09) in the championship do season tickets behind the goal for £270 (more expensive than Wigan) which is more expensive than PSG (behind the goal), but then I doubt more than 2-3 palace home games are televised per season. We have strict rules on televising football over here so that people go to games, it also makes rights more valuable because of scarcity.

About how the club (OM) makes its income:
The club sells all the tickets of the Virages (priced by the club but after arrangements with the supporter associations) to these supporter groups/associations who become the exclusive sellers. Then these groups sell (with a profit margin of course) to the people who want to buy a season ticket in these stands/Virages (40% of Vélodrome: approx. 25,000 seats) !!!!!
That makes me think to Mafia/Camora... !
Marseille sells 42/45,000 season tickets each year and more than a half is managed by the supp. associations.....

It's outsourcing though, the supporters clubs can do a better job of selling more tickets. Probably because fans refuse to buy them directly from the club?

OF course if the supporters clubs had half a brain they;d not do it as they are taking money away from their club, or do they think it grows on trees?

It's quite unique indeed, and that's a characteristic of Lens and Valenciennes Kops/popular stands.

Lens:

Not that unique, the popular stand at Maine road (manchester city), the kippax was on the side (held 26,000), Celtic's poplar stand (the jungle) was on the side. And Tottenham claimed their popular stand was on the side, known as the shelf, but apparently they used to move it every year.

Well, they asked to their clubs (Lens & Valenciennes), which asked to the league, to have a "standing tier" and they will have it, apparently.. how exactly ??? I don't know, but IMO it will be like in Germany....

Good, the more countries that bring it back, the bigger the momentum

No comment !

lmao

Not surprising ! (I knew about that and also about FC United)
Anyway that's the price to pay for being the most famous league in the world.....

But only myopic idiots want that, I hate all these people who accept their clubs going on Asian and American tours to raise revenue, then complain about ticket prices and about the tourists coming to stadiums, you can't have it both ways.

Most people could care less if the prem was the most famous but that's the problem most people dno't run the clubs and most people aren't trying to extort the game for personal gain (end rant)

In France, they could never replace the real supporters by "tourists"..... So that's also why our supporters can face public administrations/clubs etc !

-------------------

exactly, nor can most clubs in England, but then some seem to rather have empty seats than rowdy fans who create an atmosphere

I lived in London several months and I remember very well a strike in the London Underground.. I thought I was back in France !

lol it's a London ting, we ain't like the rest of the country!

Originally Posted by parcdesprinces

About that, I forgot to mention Metz (L2) & Rennes (L1) which already have obtained "terracing" back (in small parts of their "Virages") !!

Metz:


Rennes:

What happens if the fans either side want to sit down? How do they see over people standing?

My point, what's the point in having a small standing section, it should take up the whole standing

About Lens :


Essentially: The owner of RC Lens (Gervais Martel) said that he wanted "German style terraces" and (apparently) this is planned with the refurbishment of Stade Bollaert !!!

Brilliant, they're bringing football back!

[Bobby3]

Man Utd's cheap tickets are in this little hanging tier they rammed into the top of the Stretford End.

[parcdesprinces]

Originally Posted by bigbossman

I am still surprised that PSG can't sell out though?

......which is more expensive than PSG (behind the goal)

In France, PSG has the best average attendance - by percentage of capacity - since more than 20 years and as far I remember, except the lower "Boulogne" Stand (which is more than a special case*), the two Virages have always been sold out (season tickets) !
Not to forget that the prices, in most of other tiers, are far from cheap (and not only for a French supporter)......

* About Lower Boulogne Stand/Kop/Virage (aka Kop of Boulogne, tribune Rouge: KOB, Rouge) :

""It is known as the "most notorious stand in French football" due to its links with violence and far-right political groups and is a symbol for football hooliganism and political extremism within French culture. [...] The Kop has become synonymous in French public opinion with not only football hooliganism, but racism and fascism due to a number of high profile incidents.""

wiki.


Anyway,

Last season :
-PSG: 92,36% of capacity (average attendance: 40,902 for 44,283 seats: current football cap. at the Parc des Princes). PdP has 48,712 seats, but only during Rugby games !!

For example:
Lyon: 91,11% of capacity (average attendance: 37,394 for 41,044 seats)

....

[bigbarcelona]

1. Santiago Bernabeu
2. Camp Nou
3. Old Trafford
4. Wembley Stadium
5. Maracana
6. Azteca
7. La Bombonera
8. San Siro
9 Amsterdam Arena
10. Yankee Stadium

Other than yankee stadium because it is a well known American team... most people in the outside wouldn't known any of the American stadiums that are mentioned by others... unless they have lived in the US.

NFL and Baseball is really only watch by Americans (with a little European following for NFL and certain countries in Latin America and Japan for baseball). But for the rest of the world? How many know where the Cowboys play? Of the Green Bay Parkers Play? Or USC Plays??? No one knows and probably wouldn't care.

Honest observation and opinion.

[I_live_cement]

Originally Posted by Bobby3

Man Utd's cheap tickets are in this little hanging tier they rammed into the top of the Stretford End.

Eh?

Do you mean the North Stand?

[nomarandlee]

Originally Posted by bigbarcelona

1. Santiago Bernabeu
2. Camp Nou
3. Old Trafford
4. Wembley Stadium
5. Maracana
6. Azteca
7. La Bombonera
8. San Siro
9 Amsterdam Arena
10. Yankee Stadium

Other than yankee stadium because it is a well known American team... most people in the outside wouldn't known any of the American stadiums that are mentioned by others... unless they have lived in the US.

NFL and Baseball is really only watch by Americans (with a little European following for NFL and certain countries in Latin America and Japan for baseball). But for the rest of the world? How many know where the Cowboys play? Of the Green Bay Parkers Play? Or USC Plays??? No one knows and probably wouldn't care.

Honest observation and opinion.

Great, even your summary is true though it still has little to do with if a stadium is beautiful stadiums. A potentially beautiful stadium isn't' beautiful do to someone's ignorance of not knowing of it.