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Old January 13th, 2018, 11:35 PM   #13461
John.S
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Originally Posted by Melb_aviator View Post
The latest plans that were seen were a T2 arrivals hall expansion. Not even close to the concepts released a few years ago though.

Next to nothing has been heard about more gates though. I can only think that they will look at the new T5 as a Low Cost international terminal for JQ, D7, TR and potentially TT (if they recommence international flights), 5J (if they finally arrive) and whoever else sees such a terminal meeting their needs.

Given the amount of bus gate ops these days, it really wouldn’t be any different though for many pax whether it was T2 or T5. The airport needs to find a way to best handle the amount of flights in the medium term. Anything beyond that will take some big decisions (midfield terminals).
Wouldn't it make more sense for T5 to be a proper Virgin Terminal, and once they move out of T3, making T2/3 International?
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Old January 14th, 2018, 12:46 AM   #13462
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Wouldn't it make more sense for T5 to be a proper Virgin Terminal, and once they move out of T3, making T2/3 International?
I doubt that Virgin would want to be that far away from T2.
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Old January 14th, 2018, 03:28 AM   #13463
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If you build proper people-moving infrastructure and transport its an easy sell to VA. But MEL Airport team don't think about innovative things like that. Just where to plop in some more retail and band-aid fix everything.
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Old January 14th, 2018, 01:52 PM   #13464
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If you build proper people-moving infrastructure and transport its an easy sell to VA. But MEL Airport team don't think about innovative things like that. Just where to plop in some more retail and band-aid fix everything.
People movers add cost to airport operations. We have to remember that the airlines are the ones that end up having to pay more so we end up with the situation that exists today.

The bus gates, watered down new T4 terminal and minimal overall terminal expansion all comes from a desire by shareholders trying to get as much value out of the existing assets and airline stakeholders trying to pay as little as possible.

The airport will have to make some significant investments in terminals in the medium to long term, which can not be accommodated in the existing terminal precinct. Even the airport CEO made that clear, but he just kicked that one down the street for someone else to deal with in the future.
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Old January 15th, 2018, 12:09 AM   #13465
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If you build proper people-moving infrastructure and transport its an easy sell to VA. But MEL Airport team don't think about innovative things like that. Just where to plop in some more retail and band-aid fix everything.
I assume you are talking about an airport rail link. I like to think of it this way:

- You could spend $300M, have a 24hr, 5-15min frequency with a trip time of 20 to 25min.

OR

- You could spend $4B, have an 18hr, 15min frequency with a trip time of less than 30min.



The first is a fully separated bus corridor and the second is a rail link. What is better and is the extra $3-4B actually worth the lower frequency and slower trip time?
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Old January 15th, 2018, 12:18 AM   #13466
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I assume you are talking about an airport rail link. I like to think of it this way:

- You could spend $300M, have a 24hr, 5-15min frequency with a trip time of 20 to 25min.

OR

- You could spend $4B, have an 18hr, 15min frequency with a trip time of less than 30min.



The first is a fully separated bus corridor and the second is a rail link. What is better and is the extra $3-4B actually worth the lower frequency and slower trip time?
No. They were talking about an airside/landside terminal people mover.

I agree re: Bus v Train except it's not as simple as you make it sound.
  • Running buses every 5 minutes is a monumental waste of resources.
  • Especially when at most they can only fit 30 to 40 people with luggage.
  • A train line could be modelled after the RER in Paris, with a link through to both Seymour and Bendigo.

An idea that I've had is reconfiguring the V/Line commuter network into an RER style network. Traralgon and Geelong (via Fishermen's bend) through to Ballarat, Bendigo (via Airport) and Seymour (via Airport). Some trains could short run between Southern Cross and Melbourne Airport.
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Old January 15th, 2018, 12:23 AM   #13467
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A monumental waste of resources that's monumentally cheaper than the train? To be honest, it would only run every 5 minutes in peak. Running trains filled with air is, IMO, a monumental waste of resources which would happen at all times outside of peak.

Also, I was under the impression each double decker easily carried more than 40 passengers.

To be honest, I think it is as simple as it sounds. Also, as a passenger, I'll take the highest frequency and lowest trip time any day of the week.




I completely agree that if you are connecting a train line to somewhere else, that's fine, however it just doesn't stack up on its own.
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Old January 15th, 2018, 12:29 AM   #13468
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If you build proper people-moving infrastructure and transport its an easy sell to VA. But MEL Airport team don't think about innovative things like that. Just where to plop in some more retail and band-aid fix everything.
I don't think it would be an easy sell. If you are forcing VA passengers to have a longer trip time (by 10min as an example) over Qantas every single trip, why would they not have an issue?

IMO, it would've been better (if they thought ahead) using T3 as a Virgin international terminal (with their partners and others), T2 for Qantas and their partners and others, T4 for virgin domestic and an airfield Central terminal for low cost carriers where the trip time to the airfield is not as much of an issue.
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Old January 15th, 2018, 03:45 AM   #13469
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My understanding was that Skybus actually carried fewer passengers than Airtrain in Brisbane (and substantially less than the Airport Link in Sydney), despite a worse service offering than Skybus. Admittedly I don't have access to the figures any longer. Does anybody know Skybus' annual patronage for the Southern Cross route?
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Old January 15th, 2018, 03:57 AM   #13470
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The biggest issue with SkyBus is no priority a varying trip times. This is why I suggest grade separation of the SkyBus the whole way and if provided I feel it would see a massive bump in patronage.

I live a 15min walk from a SkyBus stop. If I have an early flight, I catch an Uber. This is purely due to the inconsistent trip times along the Tulla. Give the bus a consistent 25min trip and I'd take it every time.
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Old January 15th, 2018, 04:08 AM   #13471
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I completely agree that if you are connecting a train line to somewhere else, that's fine
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I live a 15min walk from a SkyBus stop.
And that's where your argument falls over. Far more people live near a station than a Skybus stop. One mode of transport always trumps two.
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Old January 15th, 2018, 04:14 AM   #13472
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I live on the other side of the airport where the only option is car because there's no Skybus and one bus every 40 minutes on a weekday. A rail link would be much easier.
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Old January 15th, 2018, 04:34 AM   #13473
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And that's where your argument falls over. Far more people live near a station than a Skybus stop. One mode of transport always trumps two.
Not at all. How many people will live within walking distance of Southern Cross station?

In fact, more people live within walking distance of a SkyBus stop than an Airport train stop. Also, if there is demand, buses can be provided.

In fact, that's where the argument for the train falls over!
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Old January 15th, 2018, 04:36 AM   #13474
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I live on the other side of the airport where the only option is car because there's no Skybus and one bus every 40 minutes on a weekday. A rail link would be much easier.
How does getting to Southern Cross station become easier just because you there is an airport rail link? That's exactly where SkyBus leaves from!

You're either a mode snob, or you will still drive.
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Old January 15th, 2018, 05:35 AM   #13475
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Wow. You really don't get it.
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Old January 15th, 2018, 05:48 AM   #13476
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Tell me what I don't get. Please. I am all ears.
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Old January 15th, 2018, 05:48 AM   #13477
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How does getting to Southern Cross station become easier just because you there is an airport rail link? That's exactly where SkyBus leaves from!

You're either a mode snob, or you will still drive.
1. A train-train connection is easier than train-bus. Particularly as the Skybus stop at Southern Cross is further away than the train platforms.

2. IMO there is a strong public perception that a train-train connection is easier and more reliable. This isn't solely due to the poor quality of bus service in Melbourne either.... while I acknowledge this is anecdotal only, I've spoken to many people from interstate/overseas where bus service is better and they still have a negative perception of the bus when compared to a train.

3. As above, calling people 'mode snobs' doesn't change the fact that it is a reality that there are people who would catch a train when they wouldn't consider a bus.

Note, I'm not necessarily in support of an airport rail link. I actually agree that the first step should be for dedicated bus lanes and bus priority for Skybus before any rail link is underway.
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Old January 15th, 2018, 05:53 AM   #13478
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I generally agree with this.

My response is as follows:

1. When a bus is likely to be 10 minutes faster and significantly more frequent, this is irrelevant.
2. Is this worth $3.5B?
3. Is this worth $3.5B?


Seriously guys, think about what you could get elsewhere for that kind of money!
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Old January 15th, 2018, 06:25 AM   #13479
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I don't think it would be an easy sell. If you are forcing VA passengers to have a longer trip time (by 10min as an example) over Qantas every single trip, why would they not have an issue?
Your right on the money there. There was a proposal at Sydney airport to make the current international terminal for VA ( and friends) and the current domestic terminals for QF and one world, both sides of the airport would handle domestic and international flights.
VA knocked it on the head, as it’s passengers would have 3 minutes extra on the train ( same cost from central). It was considered a commercial disadvantage, and they wouldn’t have a bar of it. When their terminal leases expire I think the proposal will resurface.
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Old January 15th, 2018, 07:45 AM   #13480
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Originally Posted by KJBrissy View Post
I generally agree with this.

My response is as follows:

1. When a bus is likely to be 10 minutes faster and significantly more frequent, this is irrelevant.
2. Is this worth $3.5B?
3. Is this worth $3.5B?


Seriously guys, think about what you could get elsewhere for that kind of money!
In the longer run it is going to be a capacity issue. If they want any kind of decent public transport modeshare to an airport projected to take 60m passengers per annum plus, Skybus isn't going to cut it, even with services every 5 minutes or better and bus lanes. The timing for where things reach this saturation point is debatable of course.
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