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Old July 21st, 2016, 11:07 AM   #1061
skaP187
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PSV might be nice in CL match, but normally it's not known for it's atmosphere. That has nothing to do with the stadium though which is good.
Feyenoord is an absolute classic, but is to old.
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Old July 21st, 2016, 12:24 PM   #1062
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Originally Posted by skaP187 View Post
PSV might be nice in CL match, but normally it's not known for it's atmosphere. That has nothing to do with the stadium though which is good.
Feyenoord is an absolute classic, but is to old.
Feyenoord atmosphere is iconic, South American style, already for 25 years or so. Even when results are terrible for years, stadium is sold out. After first trainingday, with 9.000 fans, Open Day mostly is in a sold-out stadium, between 45.000 and 50.000. Then there is last practice home-match (this year against Valencia) which is also sold-out. Last season, 21 out of 23 home matches were fully sold-out. Just crazy knowing this club has hardly won any prices the last 20 years.

You're true about PSV not having a longstanding, known reputation for it's atmosphere. But I've witnessed it grow over the last decade and nowadays:
-great pre and post match experience due to being city-centre based;
-always (mostly) sold-out;
-positive atmosphere;
-great acoustics;
-active "ultras" (signs, flags, songs, etc);
-fans always remain to match-end;
-superb facilities;
-great interaction between fans and players.

Since it's not an aggressive/hostile environment, families and children are also found on the stands. CL matches and top-matches in Eredivisie are great and in terms of atmosphere PSV have passed Ajax nowadays. This season, they opened the biggest standing zone, 3.000 fans, in Eredivisie. So things have changed for the better at PSV. Looking at current stadium updates at Ajax and PSV and future new stadium for Feyenoord, the best thing is that all 3 of our topclubs constantly work toward better atmosphere.

But yeah, CL matches (+ matches against Ajax and Feyenoord) ofc stand out in terms of atmosphere. A complete dark stadium with great acoustics (for the CL-meme) and a LED light team entrance and presentation. Most CL group stage matches are sold out, in contrary to i.e Spanish and Italian clubs. PSV draws around 15th largest crowd in CL group stage matches and Feyenoord and Ajax are among top crowds in groupstage.

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Originally Posted by seb.nl View Post
Funny you pick those, imo the two stadium that have the best atmosphere.
It's a silly statement.
Only reason to renew a stadium is adding more revenue and PSV is one of the clubs in Europe, extracting significant amount of their budget from their stadium! Feyenoord has a great atmosphere but need to extract more money from it. But that's a business problem and for sure not a fan problem. Compare this to any club from, besides the Bundesligea and Premier League, and you'll understand criticizing those clubs on outdated stadiums is silly.

The best thing about Eredivisie is it's atmosphere, with Feyenoord and PSV on the forefront. Besides, most smaller clubs also offer great atmosphere.
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Old July 22nd, 2016, 12:05 PM   #1063
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- Go Ahead Eagles are explicitly planning on going ahead with expanding their stadium from 10 to 15k.

- Ajax will introduce the first safe-standing seats on the Southern stand at the beginning of September. Capacity will be increased by placing extra rows in the moat in front of the stand.
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Old July 23rd, 2016, 01:16 PM   #1064
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Originally Posted by AmsterdamArenA View Post
- Go Ahead Eagles are explicitly planning on going ahead with expanding their stadium from 10 to 15k.

- Ajax will introduce the first safe-standing seats on the Southern stand at the beginning of September. Capacity will be increased by placing extra rows in the moat in front of the stand.
I really liked the atmosphere at Go Ahead Eagles when I went there a few years ago.

This expansion would see the two stands that provided most of that atmosphere replaced, and it'll be hard to recreate that.
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Old July 24th, 2016, 03:00 PM   #1065
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- Ajax will introduce the first safe-standing seats on the Southern stand at the beginning of September. Capacity will be increased by placing extra rows in the moat in front of the stand.
Yes, nice update as well, adding 499 extra places to the Arena. First 4 rows add 402 seats while top standing row is added as well, with 97 extra places. In winter, rest of the standing zone will be converted with Vario seats.


The 2 most vocal fan-groups, VAK410 and F-side, will be merged. New capacity should be 53.999. This is all part of an €50 million investment plan towards EC2020 host stadium. Included is replacing strangely colored seats (due to Amsterdam Admirals) with red/white seating. Once all work is done, this 1996 build stadium will finally be fixed, with much better looking aesthetics and better acoustics while adding lot's of square meters to increase revenue towards a steady €100 million.



In December 2016, Amsterdam Arena will be upgraded with LED-lightning. Similar to PSV and Chelsea, Ajax will add a new in-stadium experience, with extended possibilities and reduced costs (vs old-skool HID lightning). Unfortunately, Arena's pitch problems aren't yet fixed.

Last edited by NL-duketown; August 1st, 2016 at 11:56 PM.
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Old July 24th, 2016, 10:18 PM   #1066
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Update

Erecting a concrete extra tier in front of PEC Zwolleĺs elevated Marten Eibrink Tribune, increasing the current capacity of Mac3Park with a few hundred spots.

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Old July 24th, 2016, 11:40 PM   #1067
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first phase of the excelsior expansion. Smallest stadium of the eredivisie. I'm sorry for the size, I don't know how to resize the images.







Source:https://www.facebook.com/excelsiorrdam/?fref=ts
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Old July 25th, 2016, 12:02 AM   #1068
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KaSpEr5 View Post
first phase of the excelsior expansion. Smallest stadium of the eredivisie.
Thank you for sharing. Good to see Excelsior Rotterdam filling in their corners.

You know by any chance how the increase in capacity will eventually turn out to be?
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Old July 25th, 2016, 12:47 AM   #1069
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Capacity will be 4.500 (now 3.750).
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Old July 26th, 2016, 11:31 AM   #1070
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Finally Excelsior is making progress. With all four corners filled up capacity should reach some 5,500 seats. There was a mention on the Dutch stadium forum including a screenshot from a televised documentary on expansion plans of the stadium which mentioned a second tier.

It looks like having a capacity of at least 15k has become sort of a benchmark for clubs wishing to secure a long-term spot in the Eredivisie.

- Cambuur 10k --> 15k
- Zwolle 12,5k --> 15/16 k
- Go Ahead Eagles 10k --> 15k
- Willem 2 14,5k --> several extra k
- Graafschap has been trying for years now
- NEC Nijmegen 12,5k --> 17,5 k (expansion and ownership talks have been going on for ages)
- VVV Venlo 8,5k --> some 15k

It will be interesting to witness developments at clubs that aren't seriously considering expansion and or renovation at the moment. Two of those clubs are AZ and ADO The Hague.

As for 2010 Eredivisie champions AZ, there have been plans to drastically increase capacity even before the stadium opened in 2006. Numbers that were reporterd were 23k, 30, 32, 37, 40 and even 60k (!). However in 2010 plans to expand to about 25/27k were put on hold for financial reasons. Priorities were to create a brand-new youth academy which was opened this year. Crowd attendance has sharply decreased over the last two years. The clubs general manager has stated that AZ should aim for the top in the longer run, including the championship.

As for ADO The Hague, the new owner was a bit over ambitious when at taking over he dreamt of playing CL and having a stadium of some 30k (the max the stadium plans can allow). A year or so later he played down his ambitions by stating that an increase from 15k to 20k would be more realistic. For the moment however ADO does not receive so much financial support and though attendance is not terrible, there is no incentive for rapid expansion.

Last edited by AmsterdamArenA; July 26th, 2016 at 12:11 PM.
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Old July 26th, 2016, 03:37 PM   #1071
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@KaSpEr5:
I addd those Excelsior pics to my Eredivisie roundup post. As far as I know, Excelsior will only close 2 corners, leaving room for another cheap +1.000 expension by closing the remaining 2 corners.

@AmsterdamArenA:
Which dutch stadium forum do you mean? And I also noted that 15K remark in that roundup post:
Quote:
Steady growth towards sub-top is in the lower part of the League. Ranked #10-18 is a very competitive playground, all in danger for the financial "relegation"-gap. Eredivisie is up to a point where minimal capacity is 10.000 fans, translating in a €10 million budget. Heracles, Go Ahaed Eagles and Zwolle are rapidly growing towards 13.500, 12.000 and 15.000 fans. Roda JC is on it's way back with a new local owner and already have 14.500 fans. NAC (broke average fan record in Jupiler League with 14.000 and also broke match record against GAE with 17.800) and Cambuur just need a promotion for a €19 and €15 million budget. Zero debt/zero assets clubs like Willem2, De Graafschap and NEC (€3.5 million debt) need to fix damage from the past but a future update seems not that complex once the money is available. They have the fans and need to find ways to improve facilities, capacity and many other aspects of their government-owned stadium and club. All 3 clubs are big enough for a €15 million budget in the near future but they need to expand their foundation, stadium and youth Academy, first. A thriving sponsor community is needed for this. And fresh management and coaching.

Final step for those lower ranked clubs is to transform stadiums to better host non-football events. Music and dance events in summer season continues to grow so investing in stadiums seems sensible. For this, stadiums need better architecture and acoustics, LED lightning systems (monitors, interior, exterior, commercial and pitch lightning) and a roof-upgrade to offer rain-protection. Specifically for FC Groningen, FC Zwolle, Roda JC, Willem II and NEC. Mostly, government owns stadium and club being most important tenant. So another combined €50 million investments are on the horizon.
Other sensible investment are ofc more business seats to grow commercially (upfront skybox lease for access to capital), leasing it's stadium name, pitch sponsoring and better quality food&drinks, solar panels (crowd sourcing) and even the reuse of rainwater.
I don't think +5K fans will bring in big money but yearly hosting around 10 non-football events will. Those clubs first need to have a strong business platform and their stadiums adapted towards such model. Only 3 club in the Netherlands still need this transition: NEC, Willem2 and de Graafschap. Only NEC has €3 million debt but a solution is on the horizon. Willem2 is starting to rebuild itself and has a strong and solid base. Also De Graafschap can make this transition easily.

To improve the league, some reforms are coming to the Eredivisie:
Quote:
But the KNVB is now focusing on a restructuring its elite football. The Dutch FA aims to create a more level-playing field, where clubs of the same level meet more often. Recent league reforms in Belgium, Portugal and Poland are case that may be studied in the KNVB’s assessment.

By May 2017 an advice will be to the Algemene Vergadering Betaald Voetbal, the body responsible for professional football in the Netherlands. The respective clubs will then vote about possible changes to the league structure and other alterations. The reforms would then be implemented from the from 2018/2019 season onwards.
This is a hint towards a League split-up in winter. I believe a winter split would decrease match value for the lower ranked teams (which is around 10 big and successful clubs). Contrary to Belgium, Portugal and Poland, The Netherlands already has 22 10K+ clubs. I believe a 20 team League (with only 1 team relegated) will be the solution, leaving more room to be among the winners, increasing player interest. Currently, at least 3 clubs are always left out (NAC, Cambuur and De Graafschap this season) so something indeed needs to be done.

Jupiler League (2nd level) needs to be improved. First step was opening for our best amateur teams (there are at least 6 amateur teams already being better than the worsed 5 teams from Jupiler League).

I would suggest a combined Belgium/Netherlands 2nd Division (named Lowlands League). No problems with UEFA (teams play national League Cups) and instantly an attractive 2nd Division for both Dutch and Belgium 3rd tier clubs. Those clubs will be in the order of 5-10K fans and budget, completed with 2nd teams from the big clubs. Such 2nd Division should fuel both Dutch Eredivisie as well as Belgium Jupiler League with a great platform for clubs growing towards €10+ million budgets before they will promote to first national Division. Such budget with growth path towards €15-20 million is needed to survive in Eredivisie in 10 years.

Last edited by NL-duketown; July 28th, 2016 at 12:50 AM.
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Old July 26th, 2016, 10:43 PM   #1072
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Stop Press.


Today, PEC Zwolle announced the official capacity of their Mac3Park for their 2016/17 campaign has been set at 13,250, due to a slight shuffle in allocation of designated seats, standing areas and a provision for visually impaired supporters.
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Old July 29th, 2016, 10:52 AM   #1073
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Originally Posted by NL-duketown View Post

I would suggest a combined Belgium/Netherlands 2nd Division (named Lowlands League). No problems with UEFA (teams play national League Cups) and instantly an attractive 2nd Division for both Dutch and Belgium 3rd tier clubs. Those clubs will be in the order of 5-10K fans and budget, completed with 2nd teams from the big clubs. Such 2nd Division should fuel both Dutch Eredivisie as well as Belgium Jupiler League with a great platform for clubs growing towards €10+ million budgets before they will promote to first national Division. Such budget with growth path towards €15-20 million is needed to survive in Eredivisie in 10 years.
What do you think of this old proposal of mine? (It's for a top flight division that combines the biggest clubs in Belgium and Netherlands).

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...#post117157535

I'd love to stay and debate but I have very little time these days, sorry.
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Old July 29th, 2016, 02:28 PM   #1074
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexandru.mircea View Post
What do you think of this old proposal of mine? (It's for a top flight division that combines the biggest clubs in Belgium and Netherlands).

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...#post117157535

I'd love to stay and debate but I have very little time these days, sorry.
Alex, your proposal has been talked about forever. While you have an interesting league setup, it has been proven each time that such League won't happen.
Yes, market increases to 30 million people which will bring extra TV money and also better average visitors per match. But it still will leave us as "best of the rest", behind big 5 leagues. Winning nothing and losing UEFA slots.

Merger 2nd level leagues, eases the relegation gap while upping the level of 3rd tier clubs. Those clubs can than better compete 2nd tier clubs, which can better compete first tier clubs. Above all, 2 non-functioning leagues will be fixed.
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Old August 2nd, 2016, 12:10 PM   #1075
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Alex, your proposal has been talked about forever. While you have an interesting league setup, it has been proven each time that such League won't happen.
Yes, market increases to 30 million people which will bring extra TV money and also better average visitors per match. But it still will leave us as "best of the rest", behind big 5 leagues. Winning nothing and losing UEFA slots.

Merger 2nd level leagues, eases the relegation gap while upping the level of 3rd tier clubs. Those clubs can than better compete 2nd tier clubs, which can better compete first tier clubs. Above all, 2 non-functioning leagues will be fixed.
A 30m market is not far off from Spain's 40m, and is actually similar in terms of GDP due to simply higher GDP per capita in Belgium and Netherlands. So this is definitely not "nothing".

While breaking the Top 5 might not be immediately achievable, any progress is desired. Even CL quarterfinals would be a major progress. Even more than that, Belgium and Netherlands have bigger problems than the Top 5. Currently Portugal, Ukraine, and Russia have higher ranked leagues and Turkey also is able to attract more stars in its elite teams. Forget the Top 5, even the Next 5 might leave Belgium and Netherlands behind.

Teams from those other leagues have actually been quite competitive in Europe. I am sure Ajax, PSV, Anderlecht fans would definitely enjoy winning the Europa League at least if they can't pull of a CL miracle right from the beginning.
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Old August 2nd, 2016, 06:59 PM   #1076
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A 30m market is not far off from Spain's 40m, and is actually similar in terms of GDP due to simply higher GDP per capita in Belgium and Netherlands. So this is definitely not "nothing".

While breaking the Top 5 might not be immediately achievable, any progress is desired. Even CL quarterfinals would be a major progress. Even more than that, Belgium and Netherlands have bigger problems than the Top 5. Currently Portugal, Ukraine, and Russia have higher ranked leagues and Turkey also is able to attract more stars in its elite teams. Forget the Top 5, even the Next 5 might leave Belgium and Netherlands behind.

Teams from those other leagues have actually been quite competitive in Europe. I am sure Ajax, PSV, Anderlecht fans would definitely enjoy winning the Europa League at least if they can't pull of a CL miracle right from the beginning.
Yes, for the pro's, this is the logic used. However, markets are attached to TV's and TV's to languages; Dutch simply is a to small language. So GDP isn't really important to determine foreign tv-market. So we won't make a big foreign TV-deal in South America.

And don't forget impact on at least 10 10k clubs in The Netherlands and this league would also kill all future 10K clubs from Belgium. Besides, 2nd level League would become even more troubled than they are now.

Another thing to take in account is that Eredivisie fixed it's business model without accumulating billions of debt. Now most clubs are fixed, it's waiting for other Leagues to become fixed.

I've always been pro on this Beneliga but now I believe merging 2nd level makes much more sense.

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Old August 14th, 2016, 11:58 PM   #1077
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Finsihed result in Zwolle:


New capacity: 13.250
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Old August 19th, 2016, 10:29 PM   #1078
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Final result Go Ahead Eagles:
Go Ahead Eagles just finished first €7 million (€6 payed by local government) part of their renewed stadium from 8.000 to 10.000. Besides 2 new stands also better business facilities for minimum 230 sponsors including 10 skyboxes. This season they promoted, they plan on renewing the remaining 2 stands for another €4.8 million, bringing fans to 12.000. It might be done in winter 2016 and/or early summer 2017 (before hosting Women WC2017) since they still have €3 million surplus.



From 2014 untill now, Go Ahaed grew steadily: 7.900, 8.400 to now 9.100 fans in this seasons first home match. If they manage to survive this season, next season Go Ahead Eagles will be the next 10K+ club.
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Old August 26th, 2016, 04:18 PM   #1079
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Another interesting fact about Eredivisie: RESPONSIBALL rankings of social responsibility around “three main pillars of governance, community and environment”.


So the right things are being done..
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Old August 27th, 2016, 09:08 PM   #1080
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Can you explain it a little bit more, I can see that Denmark is placed second but I don┤t know how and why.
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