daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > European Forums > UK & Ireland Architecture Forums > Projects and Construction > Scottish Architecture Forum > The Bothy

The Bothy Scottish Skybar



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 260 votes, 5.00 average.
Old Today, 03:18 PM   #11001
milton
Registered User
 
milton's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 3,318
Likes (Received): 766

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quirinalian View Post
I think Kezia's by far the best candidate for the job.

Of the other realms-of-possibility contenders Neil Findlay is extraordinarily left wing, Ken Macintosh isn't a great performer by any manner of means, Hugh Henry is boring and Jenny Marra and Drew Smith haven't really grown into their roles yet.

If anything, I'd worry about the timing. She will have the same problem Jim Murphy had - it's impossible to turn things around in time for the next election. She'll probably oversee the loss of some MSPs (although it won't be anywhere near as bad given the list system) and she's likely to spectacularly lose in her own constituency of Edinburgh East and be re-elected on the list. Hardly fantastic.

If I was them, I'd put in Jackie Baillie as a caretaker leader.

As for hating the SNP, I've never seen an opposition party get into government by being nice about their opponents. I don't see anyone saying 'if only Ed Miliband had been nicer about the Tories, he'd be Prime Minister now'.

Yes, by all means I think Dugdale should steal the centre-ground from them, but that's not the same as being nice about their achievements. If anything, what she should be selling is a message that their voters voted for a certain narrative about x, y and z, but were betrayed - and that Labour is the real party of achieving all these things.
I don't expect them to be nice about the SNP, but all indications are that the electorate is sick of Labour's relentlessly negative campaigning. The reason that they were negative is that, rather than promoting their own policies, all too often everything was put through the prism of SNP=bad.
Given that Labour already knew they'd lost voters to the SNP, this was a spectacularly stupid way to behave as it follows that there's a good chance such voters didn't perceive there being a massive difference in policy between the parties, rather that the SNP were in a better position to deliver.

Kezia is for me one of the Labour MSPs most associated with the above behaviour. They need a new broom and a real look at themselves from a grass-roots level. The fact that this internal bullying is still going on shows that in certain circles people have learned nothing. There is a misplaced sense of entitlement in some of their representatives that should have been killed off by recent results, but frankly I don't think it has. I expect at least a few of those that just lost their seats to be fast-tracked into list places for the SP, which if it happens will confirm this accusation of "complacency, conservatism, cronyism and careerism” that has been leveled at them.
milton no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
 
Old Today, 03:28 PM   #11002
milton
Registered User
 
milton's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 3,318
Likes (Received): 766

I've just pinched this from the comments section of that Hootsmon story:

Quote:
"The Labour Party's been the vehicle for social change and it will be again, but we do need to change"
Kezia, yesterday, on BBC.

If that sounds familiar to any of you, here's why:

Wendy Alexander - 15/09/07
https://archive.is/iJPX4

"To get there we must win back the trust of the Scottish people. And to win that trust we must listen to them and show that we have listened to them by reforming our party."

----

Johann Lamont - 02/12/11
http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/pol...dundee-1.33885

'We need to change ourselves in order to change the country''

----

Douglas Alexander - 02/03/12
http://www.ukpol.co.uk/2015/03/19/do...ty-conference/

"We need to change and change radically"

----

Ed Miliband - 30/10/14
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...leader-4539390

"And we meet here above all determined to fight to show the Scottish people that Labour can be the change they want to see"

----

Jim Murphy - 01/11/14
http://news.stv.tv/scotland-decides/...ing-to-voters/

"Scotland is my country. The country I want to lead. But if Labour wants to win we must first change ourselves.

----

Kezia Dugdale - 03/11/14
http://www.labourhame.com/dugdale-sc...ust/#more-4262

"I hear what the Scottish people say. I know they want change"

=======

Scottish Labour: Never changing, always blaming
Now I'm going to be a bit more balanced than that person and say that I don't think they're "always blaming", but the point about claiming that they'll change is well made. Can any of you tell me what real changes to either their policies or their way of approaching elections etc. Scottish Labour have made in the 8 years since that first quote from Wendy Alexander? Because it all seems very much the same old story to me.
milton no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old Today, 03:51 PM   #11003
Quirinalian
Registered User
 
Quirinalian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Edinburgh
Posts: 941
Likes (Received): 139

Quote:
Originally Posted by milton View Post
I don't expect them to be nice about the SNP, but all indications are that the electorate is sick of Labour's relentlessly negative campaigning. The reason that they were negative is that, rather than promoting their own policies, all too often everything was put through the prism of SNP=bad.
Negative campaigning tends to work. If it did, opponents wouldn't dislike it anywhere near as much.

Indeed, Labour and the SNP's successes have largely been won by being negative about the other side, and of course the Conservatives.

There are plenty of reasons for Labour's demise: a terrible UK leader, a string of terrible Scottish leaders (of which Jim Murphy was actually the best by a long shot), making complicated policy arguments when they should be talking about principles and so on.

As much as I don't think Labour's defeat in Scotland was as much attributable to the Scottish campaign as some might think, it had a great many weaknesses. It wasn't consistent, too closely followed what the newspapers were saying day-to-day and it seemed like it was put together by a bunch of policy wonks without adequate consideration of messaging.

Quote:
I expect at least a few of those that just lost their seats to be fast-tracked into list places for the SP, which if it happens will confirm this accusation of "complacency, conservatism, cronyism and careerism” that has been leveled at them.
In fairness, some of their former MPs like Douglas Alexander were outstanding politicians and it'd be fairly foolish not to find somewhere for them.
Quirinalian no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old Today, 04:40 PM   #11004
anonymous_redrum
Registered User
 
anonymous_redrum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 207
Likes (Received): 26

Quote:
Originally Posted by bestbud View Post
Clown of a man who deserves what he gets.
Excuse me? You were always sticking up for him in the Better Together days.

.....you aren't turning, are you?!
anonymous_redrum no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old Today, 04:42 PM   #11005
milton
Registered User
 
milton's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 3,318
Likes (Received): 766

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quirinalian View Post
Negative campaigning tends to work. If it did, opponents wouldn't dislike it anywhere near as much.

Indeed, Labour and the SNP's successes have largely been won by being negative about the other side, and of course the Conservatives.

There are plenty of reasons for Labour's demise: a terrible UK leader, a string of terrible Scottish leaders (of which Jim Murphy was actually the best by a long shot), making complicated policy arguments when they should be talking about principles and so on.

As much as I don't think Labour's defeat in Scotland was as much attributable to the Scottish campaign as some might think, it had a great many weaknesses. It wasn't consistent, too closely followed what the newspapers were saying day-to-day and it seemed like it was put together by a bunch of policy wonks without adequate consideration of messaging.
It won't surprise you that I'd be a little harsher, especially given the incredibly easy ride Labour have traditionally been given by much of the Scottish press.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quirinalian View Post
In fairness, some of their former MPs like Douglas Alexander were outstanding politicians and it'd be fairly foolish not to find somewhere for them.
I sometimes like him, sometimes hate him. I'd never deny he's very capable, but I don't trust him either.

As long as Curran's gone for good I can take some solace!
milton no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old Today, 04:46 PM   #11006
anonymous_redrum
Registered User
 
anonymous_redrum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 207
Likes (Received): 26

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quirinalian View Post
Negative campaigning tends to work. If it did, opponents wouldn't dislike it anywhere near as much.

Indeed, Labour and the SNP's successes have largely been won by being negative about the other side, and of course the Conservatives.

There are plenty of reasons for Labour's demise: a terrible UK leader, a string of terrible Scottish leaders (of which Jim Murphy was actually the best by a long shot), making complicated policy arguments when they should be talking about principles and so on.

As much as I don't think Labour's defeat in Scotland was as much attributable to the Scottish campaign as some might think, it had a great many weaknesses. It wasn't consistent, too closely followed what the newspapers were saying day-to-day and it seemed like it was put together by a bunch of policy wonks without adequate consideration of messaging.

In fairness, some of their former MPs like Douglas Alexander were outstanding politicians and it'd be fairly foolish not to find somewhere for them.


I think you meant outstanding 'careerist' politician. He's on the YouTube channel 'worst/most embarrassing MP's ever' along with luminaries like Neil Kinnock, Gordon Brown, Prescott and Farage etc.

Labour cannot stand on principles anymore because they don't have any. Tory lite sorry i meant New Labour are now supporting the Tory bill for a EU referendum in 2017.

I would agree with you that 'fear' is a powerful tool, the thing is though 'hope' is far more powerful.
anonymous_redrum no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old Today, 04:46 PM   #11007
NorthLimitation
Passionately Apathetic
 
NorthLimitation's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Inverness
Posts: 5,260
Likes (Received): 548

Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymous_redrum View Post
Excuse me? You were always sticking up for him in the Better Together days.

.....you aren't turning, are you?!
I think he's just being objective and fair, as is usually the case.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


I N V E R N E S S / I N B H I R - N I S
Capital of the Scottish Highlands
Prìomh-bhaile na Gàidhealtachd

bestbud liked this post
NorthLimitation no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old Today, 05:10 PM   #11008
bestbud
Registered User
 
bestbud's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Glasgow
Posts: 3,398
Likes (Received): 1169

Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymous_redrum View Post
Excuse me? You were always sticking up for him in the Better Together days.

.....you aren't turning, are you?!
Like most people, I just have an ability to comment with a degree of objectivity on occasion.

Try it one day, you might like it.

Last edited by bestbud; Today at 05:16 PM.
bestbud no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old Today, 05:32 PM   #11009
anonymous_redrum
Registered User
 
anonymous_redrum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 207
Likes (Received): 26

Quote:
Originally Posted by bestbud View Post
Like most people, I just have an ability to comment with a degree of objectivity on occasion.

Try it one day, you might like it.
That is fine but i'm pretty sure you weren't saying he's a clown the last couple years.

We all knew the man is a clown.
anonymous_redrum no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
obsessednationalists

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT +2. The time now is 11:28 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2015 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2015 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

Hosted by Blacksun, dedicated to this site too!
Forum server management by DaiTengu