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Old June 18th, 2017, 09:54 AM   #21
koolkid
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I can say the same about US, is there anything else besides NYC and LA? At least I'm unaware of. In case of UK I can name only London, Same for France and Germany.

It more has to do with my and your ignorance.

From architectural perspectives in Russia you have to look at historical cities like Kazan, Nizhniy Novgorod and so. Or disneyland-like Yoshkar-Ola.

Novosibirsk - the third largest Russian city now, is little more than 100 years old. It definitely lacks in architecture as it is 90% Soviet provincial creature as it was 9th (!) in Soviet Union by the time of its collapse. Almost same story with Ekaterinburg, - the 4th in Russia and 10th in SU, - except it existed before like some provincial village in the Russian Empire with up to 40 000 residents by the time of the Civil War.

None of this (Bar Yoshka) are lacking from cultural perspective, at least within Russia. Neither both lacks in economy, sough there is more prosperous cities and towns in North-West Siberia, some of which were founded in 1960-80 (!).

Also, you have to remember, that past 400 years or so (longer than US existed, including colonial period) Russia was developing in broader perspectives with inclusion of the cities like Minsk, Kiev, Tbilisi and so on. If tomorrow California will split with US what will be the second largest city in this California-lees US? Can you name it without googling?
The United States has probably developed the most premier cities of any country in the world. There's definitely more than just LA and New York.

San Francisco and silicon valley are a hub of constant innovation, making huge contributions to technology and the way we live our lives. Chicago, our third largest city is a major global financial center. The city that pioneered the first modern skyscraper and developed the internationally renown Chicago school of architecture. Then there's Washington DC, Boston, Philadelphia, Seattle, Miami, Atlanta, all major cities that are major economic centers and among the richest cities in the world. Smaller significant cities include Pittsburgh, New Orleans, Baltimore, Richmond, Savannah, Portland, San Diego.

If California separated itself from the United States, we would still have plenty of very large and significant cities to enjoy. Chicago would become the second largest city as it use to be.

Europe is quite different. Overall, the countries in Europe such as Britain, France, Germany etc. are much smaller individually than USA and Russia. As a result there is usually just one major premier city per country (London, Paris, Vienna etc). And yet there are tons of smaller cities that are architecturally, culturally and economically significant. The result of centuries of development.(Manchester, Glasgow, Marseilles, Florence, Barcelona, Lisbon, Berlin etc.) Drop these cities anywhere in the world and they would be an instant hit, in Russia or the USA.

Concerning the cities that were once under Russian domain like Tbilisi and Kiev, would it really be fair to take credit for their development? Considering they are in countries that are distinct from Russia, socially and culturally. Tbilisi for example, looks nothing like a Russian city and instead has an architectural style much more akin to that of Europe.

I'm not trying to knock on Russia. Simply that, considering the size and history, developing for centuries before America, one expects Russia to possess much more larger significantly impressive cities on the level of mainland Europe. It's just strange to me how that didn't pan out.
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Old June 18th, 2017, 05:23 PM   #22
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"Concerning the cities that were once under Russian domain like Tbilisi and Kiev, would it really be fair to take credit for their development? Considering they are in countries that are distinct from Russia, socially and culturally. Tbilisi for example, looks nothing like a Russian city and instead has an architectural style much more akin to that of Europe."
OMG dude just stop please do not type about something you seem to have no clue about
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Old June 19th, 2017, 05:56 PM   #23
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I am from Russia and we have a really bad architecture. This is due to the fact that in some regions Soviet standard building is still being built. There is also such a fact as the greed of the developer, many developers order good projects for attracting buyers and then in the process of construction they use the cheapest materials, simplify complex architectural elements. All this is done in order to simply earn as much money as possible by spending a minimum of funds. But we can not help saying that recently in our country good and stylish buildings began to appear, which indicates the alienation from Soviet architecture.
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Old June 19th, 2017, 06:20 PM   #24
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Fine architecture has a noticeable cost behind it. I mean not in terms of income, but generally in terms of GDP per capita - if your labour in a specific land costs more, you can be more picky and avoid buying a shitbox. But thanks to putin and his gmen who seized all the wealth a vast lump of citizens here can bargain only an utterly affordable housing you mentioned in your post.

If one Googles elite options in Russia (200+k USD), he will discover exemplary structures in fact:
Garden District
House at Mosfilmovskaya
Art Residence
Mon Cher
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Old June 19th, 2017, 11:29 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by alexey_volgograd View Post
"Concerning the cities that were once under Russian domain like Tbilisi and Kiev, would it really be fair to take credit for their development? Considering they are in countries that are distinct from Russia, socially and culturally. Tbilisi for example, looks nothing like a Russian city and instead has an architectural style much more akin to that of Europe."
OMG dude just stop please do not type about something you seem to have no clue about
Tbilisi was well established with centuries of development before the Russian occupation. Centuries with many different powers inserting bits of influence here and there. Which explains why the city is much more architecturally varied, historic, and complex than your typical Russian city.

For comparison, we look to Manila in the Philippines. America definitely played a major role in influencing Manila's development but the city already had established centuries of culture, architecture, customs and society well before we arrived. We simply added to what was already there. It would be unfair to take full credit for what the city is today.

Calling Tbilisi a Russian city seems quite desperate.
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Old June 19th, 2017, 11:58 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Acryle View Post
I can say the same about US, is there anything else besides NYC and LA? At least I'm unaware of. In case of UK I can name only London, Same for France and Germany.

It more has to do with my and your ignorance.

From architectural perspectives in Russia you have to look at historical cities like Kazan, Nizhniy Novgorod and so. Or disneyland-like Yoshkar-Ola.

Novosibirsk - the third largest Russian city now, is little more than 100 years old. It definitely lacks in architecture as it is 90% Soviet provincial creature as it was 9th (!) in Soviet Union by the time of its collapse. Almost same story with Ekaterinburg, - the 4th in Russia and 10th in SU, - except it existed before like some provincial village in the Russian Empire with up to 40 000 residents by the time of the Civil War.

None of this (Bar Yoshka) are lacking from cultural perspective, at least within Russia. Neither both lacks in economy, sough there is more prosperous cities and towns in North-West Siberia, some of which were founded in 1960-80 (!).

Also, you have to remember, that past 400 years or so (longer than US existed, including colonial period) Russia was developing in broader perspectives with inclusion of the cities like Minsk, Kiev, Tbilisi and so on. If tomorrow California will split with US what will be the second largest city in this California-lees US? Can you name it without googling?
How have you not even heard of Chicago?
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Old June 20th, 2017, 12:30 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by koolkid View Post
Tbilisi was well established with centuries of development before the Russian occupation. Centuries with many different powers inserting bits of influence here and there. Which explains why the city is much more architecturally varied, historic, and complex than your typical Russian city.

For comparison, we look to Manila in the Philippines. America definitely played a major role in influencing Manila's development but the city already had established centuries of culture, architecture, customs and society well before we arrived. We simply added to what was already there. It would be unfair to take full credit for what the city is today.

Calling Tbilisi a Russian city seems quite desperate.
lol first of all i do not call Tbilisi a Russian city, though Kiev architecturally is, and ethnically it also used to have a Russian majority before the Bolshevick revolution, it was even one of the main centers of Russian nationalism in the Russian Empire
Secondly, why do you even bring Tbilisi to the discussion, it was far from being a "prime city" back in the Russian empire, its not a world prime city nowadays and i seriously doubt it will be one day
The prime cities of the Russian empire were Saint-Petersburg, Moscow, Warsaw, Kiev, Odessa and Riga. All of them are world level architectural masterpieces when it comes to historic centers of the late XIX/early XX centuries (well except Warsaw which was almost completely destroyed in the WWII). In the Transcaucasia region Baku was well above Tiflis (Tbilisi) already at the beginning of the XXth century, nowadays they are not even close
Thirdly, Russians are European people, Russia is an european state, everything built in Russia is European by default, so claiming Tbilisi to have more European architecture is factually wrong at best, schizophrenic at worst
and finally almost everything historic which in modern Tbilisi resembles European architecture was of course built during the time of the reign of the Russian Empire over the city, and Tiflis back then had a sizable Russian minority anyway
Overall you disgusting Russophobia is very apparent for me and does not do you any credit
cheers
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Old June 20th, 2017, 02:58 PM   #28
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There's an entire architecture section just around the corner: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/forumdisplay.php?f=4

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This one is not a commieblock at all, and it quite good. The ones in the other pic are indeed contemporary commieblocks, but I don't see them in such a negative light. They're just a reflection of the investment made. The people in them would never afford buying into the nice block I've quoted, and as a social class they're a majority. As for the towers in the Moscow CBD, I don't think they are bad at all. They may not be among my favourites, but the standard is very decent. The one way you could maybe reformulate the question is how come Moscow did not get one piece of iconic starchitecture. But that's surely debatable.
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Old June 24th, 2017, 02:15 AM   #29
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How have you not even heard of Chicago?
Ah, the place with gangsters with Tommy Guns?
I'm sure you have heard about bears on unicycles around Novosibirsk

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San Francisco and silicon valley are a hub of constant innovation, making huge contributions to technology and the way we live our lives. Chicago, our third largest city is a major global financial center. The city that pioneered the first modern skyscraper and developed the internationally renown Chicago school of architecture. Then there's Washington DC, Boston, Philadelphia, Seattle, Miami, Atlanta, all major cities that are major economic centers and among the richest cities in the world. Smaller significant cities include Pittsburgh, New Orleans, Baltimore, Richmond, Savannah, Portland, San Diego.

If California separated itself from the United States, we would still have plenty of very large and significant cities to enjoy. Chicago would become the second largest city as it use to be.
Apart from Chicago, didn't heard anything about this cities. This doesn't mean they do not exists, but they barely makes name outside the US.

And let's take more fare comparison: what would be the largest US cities if top 10 (and another five Maines-like) US states would secede?

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Concerning the cities that were once under Russian domain like Tbilisi and Kiev, would it really be fair to take credit for their development? Considering they are in countries that are distinct from Russia, socially and culturally. Tbilisi for example, looks nothing like a Russian city and instead has an architectural style much more akin to that of Europe.
Very strange assertions, to say the least. It was addressed by Alex above but I'll add some more info.

Whatever European is in Tbilisi was build under Russian Empire and looks the same as in Moscow, St. Petersburg, Kazan, and many southern Russian cities and towns, established under Empire, in their historical parts.

Kiev, from its 1500 years of history, wasn't a part of Russia for around 350 years (probably a hundred more if you count its earliest period when it belonged to Khazars). I'am sure one thousand years is enough to lave a trace or two. Same with Minsk, except damage from WW2 was higher.

And may I ask you, how do you perceive 'Russian-stile'? And how it is different from 'European-stile' in its historical form?
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Old June 24th, 2017, 06:34 AM   #30
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Ah, the place with gangsters with Tommy Guns?
I'm sure you have heard about bears on unicycles around Novosibirsk



Apart from Chicago, didn't heard anything about this cities. This doesn't mean they do not exists, but they barely makes name outside the US.
I can understand cities like Boston, Philadelphia and Seattle not being known much in Russia... but you never heard of San Francisco (Silicon Valley) or Miami? Are you living under a rock? Together with New York, Miami is a hotspot for the Russian community in USA.
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Old June 24th, 2017, 01:21 PM   #31
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I can understand cities like Boston, Philadelphia and Seattle not being known much in Russia... but you never heard of San Francisco (Silicon Valley) or Miami? Are you living under a rock? Together with New York, Miami is a hotspot for the Russian community in USA.
If I'll scratch my memory, I could even recall capitals of Canada and Australia correctly. I'm talking about broad recognition.

While I can recollect sceneries of NY and LA, I have heard of Miami only thanks to Dexter and Miami Vice without clear image. Never watched the Vice but It was quite viral in early 90s, probably this is why Miami became hotspot, the Russians simple didn't know other US cities besides NY and Miami.

But than again, you probably have heard of Sochi and Vladivostok in the same manner and may recall another city or two in Russia if you try.
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Old July 2nd, 2017, 01:57 AM   #32
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lol first of all i do not call Tbilisi a Russian city, though Kiev architecturally is, and ethnically it also used to have a Russian majority before the Bolshevick revolution, it was even one of the main centers of Russian nationalism in the Russian Empire
Secondly, why do you even bring Tbilisi to the discussion, it was far from being a "prime city" back in the Russian empire, its not a world prime city nowadays and i seriously doubt it will be one day
The prime cities of the Russian empire were Saint-Petersburg, Moscow, Warsaw, Kiev, Odessa and Riga. All of them are world level architectural masterpieces when it comes to historic centers of the late XIX/early XX centuries (well except Warsaw which was almost completely destroyed in the WWII). In the Transcaucasia region Baku was well above Tiflis (Tbilisi) already at the beginning of the XXth century, nowadays they are not even close
I wasn't the first to mention Tbilisi. I was merely responding to Acryle, who referenced the city as a center of exemplary Russian development. Premier city or not, one cannot deny the city is an architectural gem, which at first glance, seems to offer more than the likes of Novosibirsk, Ekaterinburg or any other Russian city besides the big two.

Concerning the cities of Riga, Tbilisi or Warsaw they were already quite important centers for their respective regions before the Russian Empire. They owe their unique development to the clash of the various cultures and powers that made their mark on those cities for centuries. These cities were at a crossroads where everyone came in. No doubt, Russia left its mark on those places but it clearly was not the sole contributor of their legacies (As opposed to St. Petersburg which was created by peasants from all over Russia).


Riga for example received influences from the swedes and germans. Germans made up nearly half of the population during the 19th century.

Quote:
Thirdly, Russians are European people, Russia is an european state, everything built in Russia is European by default, so claiming Tbilisi to have more European architecture is factually wrong at best, schizophrenic at worst
and finally almost everything historic which in modern Tbilisi resembles European architecture was of course built during the time of the reign of the Russian Empire over the city, and Tiflis back then had a sizable Russian minority anyway
Overall you disgusting Russophobia is very apparent for me and does not do you any credit
cheers
You can pretty much say the same for America. Our society, culture, customs, education, state, architecture, are all influenced by Europe. And most Americans descend from Europe.

Thankfully, we've managed to branch out and establish our own cultural identity as Americans first and foremost. Something we take much pride in. No American will call themselves European if asked. We're are own people.

Concerning Russia, the general consensus is that it has its own identity separate from what one considers to be core European. At least that was my impression. But you are free to identify yourself as you choose.
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Old July 2nd, 2017, 12:18 PM   #33
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^ that is not the general consensus at all. And I say that as neither a Russian and nor a huge fan of Russia either.

Anyway, Russian socio-cultural identity is quite an offtopic place to find ourselves in. If anyone wants to see quality Russian architecture of recent times, look here for example: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/search...rchid=25030898
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Old July 6th, 2017, 06:21 PM   #34
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What I find most puzzling is that Russia only has two premier cities for such a huge and powerful country. Moscow and St Petersburg are outstanding and then there's nothing else. What happened? Why has Russia not been able to develop more world class, Premier cities? The smaller cities are quite lacking from a cultural, architectural, and economic perspective.
Umm. "Economic"? Possibly. "Architectural"? Well in terms of skyscrapers, certainly. They're not going for such an architecture anyway. "Cultural"? Well only if you mean "mass (pseudo)cultural events". Else no one could argue there's more culture in any second-tier Russian city than in all of the USAn megapolises taken together. Let's face it, the words "culture" and "USA" sound very, very awkward in the same sentence.
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Old July 9th, 2017, 01:30 PM   #35
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^ that is not the general consensus at all. And I say that as neither a Russian and nor a huge fan of Russia either.

Anyway, Russian socio-cultural identity is quite an offtopic place to find ourselves in. If anyone wants to see quality Russian architecture of recent times, look here for example: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/search...rchid=25030898

your link doesn't work
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Old July 9th, 2017, 02:12 PM   #36
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^ it worked initially, but searches expire after a while and the link becomes redundant

You can do it yourself by opening the thread and putting "Russia" in the "Search this thread" function: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1022349
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Old July 9th, 2017, 09:45 PM   #37
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Americans have been very good at exporting their culture to Western Europe in the past sixty years or so. (Which of course isn't very difficult to explain historically.) Most people with some college level education in my country (NL) will at least have heard of: NYC, LA, San Francisco, Las Vegas, San Diego, Seattle, Denver, Phoenix, Houston, Dallas, New Orleans, Miami, Orlando, Atlanta, Nashville, Washington, Chicago, Detroit, Boston, Philadelphia and Washington.

When it comes to Russia, in spite of being much closer geographically and quite some degree of shared European history, most wouldn't get much further than Moscow, St. Petersburg and perhaps Vladivostok.
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Old July 18th, 2017, 04:00 AM   #38
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I wasn't the first to mention Tbilisi. I was merely responding to Acryle, who referenced the city as a center of exemplary Russian development. Premier city or not, one cannot deny the city is an architectural gem, which at first glance, seems to offer more than the likes of Novosibirsk, Ekaterinburg or any other Russian city besides the big two.
I already explained Ekaterinburg and Novosibirsk the main development of this two happened after WW2, with Novosibirsk is barely century old. You can add here Chelyabinsk and Volgograd, former Stalingrad, which was reduced to zero and basically build from the ground.

Wonder, what "any other Russian city" you mean? Because Nizhniy Novgorod and Kazan are medieval cities which even retained it's kremlins and looks like a central Moscow. Rostov-on-Don and Krasnodar both Imperial and look exactly like Petersburg and what European you can find in Tbilisi (the rest in Tbilisi is heavily influenced by Turkey and Iran which, you wouldn't deny, more Middle Eastern than European). Even the older Siberian cities like Omsk and Tomsk somewhat retained their historical centers. I don't even mention small cities and towns around the Golden Ring and 1500 years old 'grands' like Novgorod and Rostov the Greats. The cities of Norther Caucasus are also closer to Tbilisi with it's Middle Eastern influence than Europe actually.

Here's the pictures of Kazan for reference. Looks like typical European city even though it's Tatar capital, you know, one of this nomadic Muslim tribes that were with the Horde.


gelio.livejournal.com/tag/Kazan

Of Course if by "any other Russian city" you mean something like Kogalym which was established in 1975 (that's right, there's probably some people out here that is older than this city) you may be on spot, but then you have very distorted image of Russia and unaware of regional, historical and cultural differences.

Putting Kazan, Novosibirsk, Pskov and let's say Derbent in the same architectural and cultural category is deluded at best. It's like saying that London, Brasília, Prague and Ankara are all the same.
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Old July 18th, 2017, 07:41 AM   #39
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The United States has probably developed the most premier cities of any country in the world. There's definitely more than just LA and New York.

San Francisco and silicon valley are a hub of constant innovation, making huge contributions to technology and the way we live our lives. Chicago, our third largest city is a major global financial center. The city that pioneered the first modern skyscraper and developed the internationally renown Chicago school of architecture. Then there's Washington DC, Boston, Philadelphia, Seattle, Miami, Atlanta, all major cities that are major economic centers and among the richest cities in the world. Smaller significant cities include Pittsburgh, New Orleans, Baltimore, Richmond, Savannah, Portland, San Diego.

If California separated itself from the United States, we would still have plenty of very large and significant cities to enjoy. Chicago would become the second largest city as it use to be.

Europe is quite different. Overall, the countries in Europe such as Britain, France, Germany etc. are much smaller individually than USA and Russia. As a result there is usually just one major premier city per country (London, Paris, Vienna etc). And yet there are tons of smaller cities that are architecturally, culturally and economically significant. The result of centuries of development.(Manchester, Glasgow, Marseilles, Florence, Barcelona, Lisbon, Berlin etc.) Drop these cities anywhere in the world and they would be an instant hit, in Russia or the USA.

Concerning the cities that were once under Russian domain like Tbilisi and Kiev, would it really be fair to take credit for their development? Considering they are in countries that are distinct from Russia, socially and culturally. Tbilisi for example, looks nothing like a Russian city and instead has an architectural style much more akin to that of Europe.

I'm not trying to knock on Russia. Simply that, considering the size and history, developing for centuries before America, one expects Russia to possess much more larger significantly impressive cities on the level of mainland Europe. It's just strange to me how that didn't pan out.
Great post. Texas might get a bit rattled as you neglected Houston, Dallas, San Antonio and Austin from your comparatives. In my opinion it seems like Russia goes through 'hotspots' of development architecturally and long fallow periods, therefore it doesn't have as wide a portfolio of buildings as some other countries. There was definitely a time when function mattered over form, too.
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Old July 18th, 2017, 05:26 PM   #40
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There was definitely a time when function mattered over form, too.
The year is 1945, most developed half of the country divided by zero during German invasion, millions of displaced people while 20 years ago you were promising that everyone would have it's own personal house in 10 years and no Uncle Sam to lend you money, quite the contrary, the economical spectrum of the Cold War. How would you handle this situation?

Can't find the exact book, it has grate picture of how elaborate was the living space in Soviet interior design of 50 to 70es. Basically it calculated every movement and interaction with furniture up to millimeters, and even clothing was designed such a way it would fit in modular furniture to surfeit while even rooms were transformable. It was something like overfunctionalism intended to satisfy basic needs in limited condition.



Source and more

Of course it didn't worked like intended in real life, but when you study the phenomena design vise to circumstances it was really clever. Bet some favelas guy wouldn't my to get that kind flat for free.
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