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Old September 8th, 2010, 08:33 PM   #2901
cailes
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The new wishard isnt disappointing from an asthetic point of view, but if you see the site plan, it looks like the parking structure dwarves it.

I like how on the website, it mentions how important transportation is, and all the video is based upon parking for cars.

I shouldnt hedge too much on that since I know a lot of people DRIVE to get to a hospital for good reason. But isnt a hospital with a reputation of serving the poor turning the wrong shoulder with so much space reserved for parking?

Not that a medical facility is the prime spot for a transit center, but allowance for future accomodation would be nice as well. Sort of a tough pitch to make I think
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Old September 8th, 2010, 10:36 PM   #2902
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Thanks for the Wishard rendering CorrND!

That's a nice-looking building.

I'm noticing a aesthetic trend/theme in the new IUPUI parking garage, Glick Eye Center, and this Wishard rendering.

Anyone have opinion/knowledge about that being intentional or just architectural trends?
You mean the "flat-screen monitor" look? In 15 years it will look dated and scream "2010!!!" in the same way that the prior incarnation of it (mid-1950's MCM) looked dated by 1970. It's attractive, but I'm afraid its appeal will fade.

Next (shudder) we'll be seeing "Brutalism revisited"; the outdoor space in this design is close.

That is one gawdawful pedestrian interface/plaza/bus stop looking thing in the outdoor square formed by the buildings. Right out of the "Robert Moses Urban Planning 1965 Yearbook". Raised slanted concrete planters? (Drive by the Minton Capehart Building.) Virtually treeless, windswept public space? Come on. And where there are canopy trees, there will be great temptation to whack the hell out of them when they grow to a mature size because they're too close to the building. (The ones shown are only about 20-25 feet high.)
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Old September 9th, 2010, 01:34 AM   #2903
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You mean the "flat-screen monitor" look? In 15 years it will look dated and scream "2010!!!" in the same way that the prior incarnation of it (mid-1950's MCM) looked dated by 1970. It's attractive, but I'm afraid its appeal will fade.

Next (shudder) we'll be seeing "Brutalism revisited"; the outdoor space in this design is close.

That is one gawdawful pedestrian interface/plaza/bus stop looking thing in the outdoor square formed by the buildings.
I agree with all of you about awfulness of the site plan and the groundscape, but do you really think the eventual "dated-ness" of the actual structure will be a problem? Any timely design (fashion, architecture, landscape, interior, whatever) suffers from looking dated after a decade or so, and then, usually within another decade or two, becomes vintage and people rally around it. MCM and Googie are enjoying a pop renaissance right now, and even the oft-maligned Brutalism has its powerful proponents (the clamor over saving the Cossutta-designed Christian Science church in Washington DC is a wonderful example, though it looks like the preservationists have lost that battle). Someday the academics will stop thumbing their noses at Robert Graves post-modernism, even though that is fashionable right now.

The appeal of this design will undoubtedly fade, but I'd be very surprised if it doesn't experience a resurgence down the road. On the other hand, if the pedestrian space around it is bad now, that is unlikely to change without significant intervention.
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Old September 9th, 2010, 04:55 PM   #2904
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Additionally, has anyone ever visited the current Wishard? There seem to be a lot of people who are sitting outside loitering. I walked the stretch of University from IUPUI to the Indiana Ave parking lot about a dozen times last semester after missing the shuttle bus, and noticed this quite often.

I wonder if that will happen at the new Wishard? If that is the case, should the design take into account for that? Obviously most of us are going to prop up pedestrian design anyway, but Wishard being what it is, do you design for that?

Just spitballing here for conversation's sake
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Old September 9th, 2010, 05:15 PM   #2905
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Additionally, has anyone ever visited the current Wishard? There seem to be a lot of people who are sitting outside loitering. I walked the stretch of University from IUPUI to the Indiana Ave parking lot about a dozen times last semester after missing the shuttle bus, and noticed this quite often.

I wonder if that will happen at the new Wishard? If that is the case, should the design take into account for that? Obviously most of us are going to prop up pedestrian design anyway, but Wishard being what it is, do you design for that?

Just spitballing here for conversation's sake
Some Brutalist exterior design is meant to send the message "Stay away, don't linger here!" A local example is the "moat and drawbridge" feature of Merchants/Nat City/PNC Plaza on the Washington Street side. That was a feature of early-to-mid 1970's Downtown Renewal architecture. The worst example might be Renaissance Center in Detroit, which once greeted the rest of downtown with a 20 foot high concrete wall and a car ramp.

The Minton Capehart building was another example of that (at least until the post-OKC-bombing renovation in the late 90's). The IPS Educational Services Center is the local epitome of Brutalist design that screams "stay away!" though there are a couple of office buildings downtown that are similarly "fortified" in appearance and exterior (non)amenities.

My specific reason for considering the Wishard plaza design "almost Brutalist" is that it is not friendly for those who are lingering. That may be an intentional response to disrupt or eliminate the current "loitering" when the hospital moves (let's keep "those people" away), or it may be unintentional. Either way it's not good.
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Old September 9th, 2010, 05:26 PM   #2906
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I agree with all of you about awfulness of the site plan and the groundscape, but do you really think the eventual "dated-ness" of the actual structure will be a problem? Any timely design (fashion, architecture, landscape, interior, whatever) suffers from looking dated after a decade or so, and then, usually within another decade or two, becomes vintage and people rally around it. MCM and Googie are enjoying a pop renaissance right now, and even the oft-maligned Brutalism has its powerful proponents (the clamor over saving the Cossutta-designed Christian Science church in Washington DC is a wonderful example, though it looks like the preservationists have lost that battle). Someday the academics will stop thumbing their noses at Robert Graves post-modernism, even though that is fashionable right now.

The appeal of this design will undoubtedly fade, but I'd be very surprised if it doesn't experience a resurgence down the road. On the other hand, if the pedestrian space around it is bad now, that is unlikely to change without significant intervention.
MCM didn't stage a popular comeback until most of it was between 40 and 50 years old...old enough to be considered for the wrecking ball but too new to be considered historically significant. A lot of it has been butchered already.

Likewise Wright, whose two great public masterpieces (Imperial Hotel and Midway Gardens) are long since gone. Undoubtedly Graves' work will suffer the same fate of ignorance and rediscovery.

I suppose my grandchildren (should they pay attention to such things) will find the 16:9 Monitor look was the signature style of their childhood. They'll certainly get a dose of it in the simple black frames around the artwork in my house.
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Old September 9th, 2010, 08:30 PM   #2907
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Regarding the new Wishard, is there such a style as neo-Bauhaus? I dunno, but even as good as architectural renderings have become since the advent of computer illustration, there is so often the situation where the finished product belies the sleek presentation images. On rare occasions, the reality ends up being better to behold than the renderings. More common though is just the opposite. Hope I'm wrong, but I have a feeling that the building will ultimately disappoint when exposed to the harsh light of day. Probably look alright at night though. Or it could be that I'm only practicing the psychological defense mechanism of setting my expectations low in order to hopefully be pleasantly surprised? Could be.

My window worshing (sic) days tell me those 90° glass spandrel panels may be efficacious regarding the architects' intent, but will significantly add to the cost of maintenance in several ways. Anything that juts out from the facade makes rigging hanging scaffolding more complicated and these particular panels will hinder the ability of hard rain to help rinse dirt from the glass. The result is the gleaming glass of the presentation drawings will likely only look that way right after each cleaning. Hospitals especially are places where having clean windows is important in imparting at least the impression of cleanliness. Also, for reasons that perhaps only an entomologist might be able to relate, the north facade of any building that is near any water (in this case, Fall Creek), in this region ends up just covered with spider webs and their egg case thingys. That is a constant that I never saw an exception to in my years cleaning windows around here. That's inescapable with anything other than flush or no frame configurations of window design in that situation, but maybe the north facade of this building won't need those panels, since so little sunlight will hit it -?

Of course we can't be limited to architecture that is primarily concerned with ease of/economy of maintenance, as that would result in an awfully boring world from an aesthetic standpoint. However, this building is for the local "general hospital," not a corporate headquarters where image is paramount. The rationale for the 90° panels is energy savings we're told. Yet the result is to add a great deal of surface area that will require maintaining. Luckily, much more knowledgeable types than myself surely have weighed the purported energy savings vs. the inherent increased maintenance cost and found it to be a worthwhile trade off. Still, you'd think the architects would seek out the advice of people experienced in building facade maintenance to avoid repeating mistakes (shyeah, right - as if). Mistakes like teaming limestone with tempered glass without installing deflectors to keep tiny stone particles that mix with rain from quickly ruining the windows. Yet I witnessed that happen to countless new buildings over the years only to still see it being wrought in defiance of that inevitability. Form follows function - how pedantic, huh?

Reminds me of when I once saw a uniformed DNR fellow standing on the Circle with binoculars, peering at the Peregrine Falcon nest atop Market Tower. Having spent so much time on Indianapolis' downtown rooftops, I proffered to the gentleman that we high rise window cleaners could relate a lot about the birds' behavior if that might be of help. Insofar as they would often fearlessly light right next to us on towers' roofs and ledges such as the M & I Bank, AT&T on Meridian, Chase Bank on the Circle, etc, and that we constantly found the carrion they carried to rooftops to shred and devour (or just as often behead and left the thing to rot - Falcon: "Hmmm. thought I wanted Killdeer, but doesn't sound good after all"). I'll never forget the DNR guy, without lowering his binos, turning to look me up and down in my work clothes and letting out such a mighty and haughty "hurumph!" that it nearly blew my hair back in its pretentiousness. That's why when later that year, while riding my mountain bike along the river near the GM Truck and Bus plant, when I found a Peregrine with several leg bands lying dead on the ground directly beneath the high tension power lines along White River Parkway, I remembered that pompous ass DNR guy and just kept the sad find to myself. Wouldn't want to hurt anyone's feelings by presuming some blue collar, Scots-Irish slob like me might have something pertinent to relate after all.

Lastly, back on topic, regarding the notion of "flushing the air" out of the new Wishard once a day, or however they refer to that air handling feature touted, remind me not to be bicycling past when they go to purge the hospital air to the outside. My trepidation there is probably unfounded, but still could we maybe get a klaxon horn and digital biohazard warning signs to alert us when they go about it? Okay. I'm just being facetious. Somewhat.

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Last edited by Indyfatigable; September 9th, 2010 at 08:46 PM. Reason: Perfectionism is my most vexing obsession
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Old September 10th, 2010, 12:09 AM   #2908
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Rebuild Indy starting soon

Mayor Ballard announces first $55 million of Rebuild Indy:

http://www.indy.gov/eGov/Mayor/Pages/RebuildIndy.aspx

--

Star article about "first batch of projects in Rebuild Indy initiative."

http://www.indystar.com/article/2010...sidewalk-fixes

--

Both articles link to PDFs with project location details.
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Old September 10th, 2010, 12:34 AM   #2909
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Mayor Ballard announces first $55 million of Rebuild Indy:

http://www.indy.gov/eGov/Mayor/Pages/RebuildIndy.aspx

--

Star article about "first batch of projects in Rebuild Indy initiative."

http://www.indystar.com/article/2010...sidewalk-fixes

--

Both articles link to PDFs with project location details.
Sidewalks (and bus stop shelters) for Michigan Road are long overdue.
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Old September 10th, 2010, 02:42 AM   #2910
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Canal needs some mother-lovin' bathrooms

Can we talk about restrooms on the canal? My lady and I have been spending a lot of time there recently and it's been extremely annoying searching for bathrooms when nature calls. I knew it was a problem beforehand, but it's just really been in my face the last couple of weeks.

The only ones I know of that are explicitly public are Buggs Temple and The Visitors Center, which are at opposite ends of the canal. The Visitor's Center closes at 7pm, I believe.

Other options: The Historical Society is open 'til 5pm, but I'm not sure how they feel about joggers or the general public just stopping in to use the bathroom. Same goes for the State and Eiteljorg museums.

Of course, some people can sneak around in places more easily than others. An elderly couple would probably get stopped less in "not quite public" spaces than a gaggle of rowdy teens that need to relieve themselves.

I realize they might become homeless shelters. I'm thinking the European style pay bathrooms with timed-doors might be the solution. I'm sure money is an issue. But c'mon it's a huge linear park that gets a ton of (primarily exercising) foot-traffic daily.

Basically, it's just really frustrating that there aren't any public bathrooms along the majority of the canal. Anyone else annoyed by this lately?
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Old September 10th, 2010, 03:26 AM   #2911
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Can we talk about restrooms on the canal? My lady and I have been spending a lot of time there recently and it's been extremely annoying searching for bathrooms when nature calls. I knew it was a problem beforehand, but it's just really been in my face the last couple of weeks.

The only ones I know of that are explicitly public are Buggs Temple and The Visitors Center, which are at opposite ends of the canal. The Visitor's Center closes at 7pm, I believe.

Other options: The Historical Society is open 'til 5pm, but I'm not sure how they feel about joggers or the general public just stopping in to use the bathroom. Same goes for the State and Eiteljorg museums.

Of course, some people can sneak around in places more easily than others. An elderly couple would probably get stopped less in "not quite public" spaces than a gaggle of rowdy teens that need to relieve themselves.

I realize they might become homeless shelters. I'm thinking the European style pay bathrooms with timed-doors might be the solution. I'm sure money is an issue. But c'mon it's a huge linear park that gets a ton of (primarily exercising) foot-traffic daily.

Basically, it's just really frustrating that there aren't any public bathrooms along the majority of the canal. Anyone else annoyed by this lately?
OFFICIALLY the bathroom at The Left Bank is public and they're open long hours. Part of the reasoning for giving the Cosmo a property tax abatement is because they're providing a public service with that bathroom (along with public parking spaces in their garage).

Now, the reality, as you're probably aware, is that their bathroom IN NO WAY looks public. In fact, a guest at the restaurant doesn't even know where the bathroom is because it's behind a door that says "Private - Residents Only" or something to that effect.

Perhaps someone needs to bring this to the city's attention. The city isn't collecting $2.7M in property taxes (over 10y) in part because the Cosmo is providing PUBLIC restrooms behind a door that says PRIVATE.

http://www.ibj.com/canal-complex-win...RAMS/post/1281
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Old September 10th, 2010, 05:47 AM   #2912
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OFFICIALLY the bathroom at The Left Bank is public and they're open long hours. Part of the reasoning for giving the Cosmo a property tax abatement is because they're providing a public service with that bathroom (along with public parking spaces in their garage).

Now, the reality, as you're probably aware, is that their bathroom IN NO WAY looks public. In fact, a guest at the restaurant doesn't even know where the bathroom is because it's behind a door that says "Private - Residents Only" or something to that effect.

Perhaps someone needs to bring this to the city's attention. The city isn't collecting $2.7M in property taxes (over 10y) in part because the Cosmo is providing PUBLIC restrooms behind a door that says PRIVATE.

http://www.ibj.com/canal-complex-win...RAMS/post/1281
Funny you mention Left Bank, because we ate there this evening.

Is there another door besides the entrance through the restaurant? They showed her the way, but it wasn't obvious.

I emailed Tonya Beeler, downtown neighborhood liaison, to get her thoughts about the abatement and their cheating the deal. Maybe something can be done.
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Old September 10th, 2010, 03:43 PM   #2913
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Funny you mention Left Bank, because we ate there this evening.

Is there another door besides the entrance through the restaurant? They showed her the way, but it wasn't obvious.

I emailed Tonya Beeler, downtown neighborhood liaison, to get her thoughts about the abatement and their cheating the deal. Maybe something can be done.
Let us know what she says.

The garage entrance doesn't appear to make any mention of the 30 public spaces available, though I've never tried to park in there to see what the real situation is. My guess is that the spaces are there, they're just not going to announce very loudly about it until a restaurant wants to move in at Senate and Michigan. That's really why those "public" spaces exist anyway, not for the use of canal users. Their garage isn't particularly convenient for canal access.
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Old September 10th, 2010, 04:13 PM   #2914
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Corr, Are those public spaces in the garage free to the public, or do they of course charge some fees for parking there?
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Old September 10th, 2010, 04:15 PM   #2915
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Wow, imagine that. Someone building something with public access, thats not so public *ahem* CLARIAN

;-)

Hey matt, you aren't the dude who sits out in the grass with his headphones on yelling loudly whatever is playing are you?
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Old September 10th, 2010, 04:40 PM   #2916
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Corr, Are those public spaces in the garage free to the public, or do they of course charge some fees for parking there?
My guess would be that they're free, as I have a strong suspicion that they exist solely to serve the retail space at Senate and Michigan. As I said, I haven't tried parking there so I don't know what the situation is, or that they even exist in the final design.
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Old September 10th, 2010, 05:23 PM   #2917
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Wow, imagine that. Someone building something with public access, thats not so public *ahem* CLARIAN

;-)

Hey matt, you aren't the dude who sits out in the grass with his headphones on yelling loudly whatever is playing are you?
No. I hang out with the fellas on the Glick Peace Walk. We share a flask to promote brotherhood. Nothing like the strong scent of cheap whiskey and a big ol' picture of Einstein to get the juices flowin', I always say.
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Old September 10th, 2010, 08:27 PM   #2918
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LMAO I was riding through there the other night and saw that

Damn, do I love living in the city
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Old September 10th, 2010, 09:50 PM   #2919
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Did a little downtown drive-around after work yesterday - to check up on the status of a few projects. The project that is really moving fast is the new residential on Indiana Ave - up past Fall Creek. Its called 1201 Indiana. Its big - seems to take up about a block and a half square area. They've got a few of the taller beams in place now - that reach up to about four stories. I believe this project should have about 300 units or more when completed. That project - along with the other four story residential at 10th and Indiana should help add another 700 - 800 or so residents to that corner of downtown. Good to see - and that obviously will help encourage more infill commercial and other uses down the road.
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Old September 10th, 2010, 10:02 PM   #2920
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Did a little downtown drive-around after work yesterday - to check up on the status of a few projects. The project that is really moving fast is the new residential on Indiana Ave - up past Fall Creek. Its called 1201 Indiana. Its big - seems to take up about a block and a half square area. They've got a few of the taller beams in place now - that reach up to about four stories. I believe this project should have about 300 units or more when completed. That project - along with the other four story residential at 10th and Indiana should help add another 700 - 800 or so residents to that corner of downtown. Good to see - and that obviously will help encourage more infill commercial and other uses down the road.
Apparently the Kirkbride Bible site on the canal (one of the industrial buildings with a steep grassy bank) is now proposed for a student housing development.

In other development news, there's a story/blog post about this building



which is at the SE corner of Monon Trail and Broad Ripple Ave. I actually ate there when it was a restaurant almost 30 years ago. It didn't have sidewalk tables or sails on the rooftop then.
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