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Old October 11th, 2017, 05:42 PM   #581
yishbarr
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They did a nice job actually. Wherever you go, there are buildings and trees for shade and stuff, even on roads that aren't usually walked on. The hilly terrain kind of makes it hard for certain people to walk, but that doesn't stop everyone. In Tel Aviv though, I couldn't stop feeling the blazing sun on my face unless I entered a really small and dense street.

The artificial lake was planned, so it will prevent the flooding from Anave stream that goes through the urban area. In Tel Aviv, each bloody time, the Ayalon floods when there's a snowstorm.
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Old October 11th, 2017, 07:14 PM   #582
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The artificial lake was planned, so it will prevent the flooding from Anave stream that goes through the urban area. In Tel Aviv, each bloody time, the Ayalon floods when there's a snowstorm.
Yes, I think it was Moshe Safdie's idea.
I remember when it was being built and people were using the area as a giant gathering space for kids to play. Now they lost that space and it is pretty much a dead zone because that huge area is covered with water.
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Old October 11th, 2017, 07:48 PM   #583
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What's the definition of a city centre? Shops and stuff? Businesses? Usually, in most places, a city centre was the origin of the city before it annexed a bunch of other places in the area and became a metropolis. In many American and Australian and British cities, those city centres are now full of high rises, since it became the central business district.

In Israel, a city centre is no more than shopping streets and some other businesses. In Tel Aviv, there's no set up CBD. All the businesses are spread out everywhere. It doesn't have what most people would call a CBD or city centre. Same thing in Jerusalem. But they still have one.

Modiin was designed, so high tech businesses would be placed on arterial routes and not in the residential areas. That's a failure for the PT problems, but it works out in other ways. The new U/C CBD is pretty much the same shops and office building stuff.
I don't want to be repetitive of all the things I've already wrote many times about city planning, and I find it hard to understand
why people here keep insisting that Modiin or Harish are well planned cities -

Ask ANY normal city planner, international or Israeli, who is a bit educated with what consists a well planned city in the 21st century,
and I promise you they won't describe Modiin or Harish - quite the contrary, it has almost NOTHING from the main guidelines -
There is no walkability, there is no density, there is no normal efficient PT, there is no city centre (which yes, is a mixed use economical, cultural and business
area of a city, in USA they will call it many times downtown although most downtowns in the US are sh*tty [and no, a mall is not a city centre]),
there are no attractions, there are no squares/piazzas/points of interest in the city which get crowded with daily city residents,
there are only layers and more layers of buildings and houses with a mall in the center and an industrial park in the outskirt of the city.

Even municipal and governmental authorities are starting to grasp - many 'modiin-style' plans for new neighborhoods are being canceled because the municipalities want urbanization and understand there is a problem with Israeli city planning.
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Old October 11th, 2017, 07:53 PM   #584
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Yes, I think it was Moshe Safdie's idea.
I remember when it was being built and people were using the area as a giant gathering space for kids to play. Now they lost that space and it is pretty much a dead zone because that huge area is covered with water.
At least they are not going to build a port there, so it's still bearable...
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Old October 11th, 2017, 07:56 PM   #585
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The artificial lake....
Don't you think you are just feeding a troll?
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Old October 11th, 2017, 08:01 PM   #586
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Originally Posted by ronydimebag View Post
Ask ANY normal city planner, international or Israeli, who is a bit educated with what consists a well planned city in the 21st century,
And in each case you will get a different answer, usually the opposite to the others .

The only right criteria is if the people feel good and comfortable in the place, or not.
So what yishbarr says about his city is worth more than tons of theoretical rantings.
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Last edited by Kalamai; October 11th, 2017 at 08:12 PM.
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Old October 11th, 2017, 08:04 PM   #587
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At least they are not going to build a port there, so it's still bearable...

LOL! That's a good one! Just don't give minister Katz any ideas. He might turn Modi'in into an international ski resort, complete with artificial snow to go with the artificial lake turned giant ice rink for Jordanian tourists

Last edited by mika2k1; October 11th, 2017 at 11:12 PM.
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Old October 11th, 2017, 08:21 PM   #588
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So what yishbarr says about his city is worth more than tons of theoretical rantings.

No, nobody wants to look stupid about their choices. He's obviously going to be defensive about his home town. As I said, once the shine of newness wares off and disrepair start to creep in, the rose colored glasses are going to be replaced with serious boredom with the place. There's nothing different about this place compared to the soviet style shikkunim of the past. In fact, this is even worse.

Last edited by mika2k1; October 12th, 2017 at 04:06 AM.
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Old October 11th, 2017, 09:10 PM   #589
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No, nobody wants to look stupid about their choices. He's obviously going to be defensive about his home town.
I know at least one guy who recently joined this forum, who does not hesitate to look stupid at all.
And who constantly whines and complains about virtually everything around him.
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Old October 11th, 2017, 09:40 PM   #590
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I know at least one guy who recently joined this forum, who does not hesitate to look stupid at all.
And who constantly whines and complains about virtually everything around him.
Since I joined in 2014, I know you're not talking about me. But if this person's criticism bothers you so much, it seems to me maybe it's because you know there is some truth to it. Maybe there's some room for improvement? Maybe not everything is perfect.

Last edited by mika2k1; October 11th, 2017 at 10:05 PM.
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Old October 12th, 2017, 03:29 AM   #591
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And in each case you will get a different answer, usually the opposite to the others .
I'm happy you threw this nonfactual data into the air, want to back it up with someone real who gives a Modiin style city as an ideal example?
That is besides Modiin's mayor/ Modiin's residents/ Modiin's planner/ yishbarr obviously.

I can give you a thousand articles/lectures/interviews of top city planners who say the opposite.

Sure, not all city planners agree on everything, but the vast majority agree on most of the things that Modiin is not.
Even in the US they are backing off from the suburban-downtown city architecture.
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Old October 12th, 2017, 04:06 PM   #592
Kalamai
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Urban planning is not a science. It's more like an ideology, with trends, established schools , mavericks, and so on.

Concepts in this field that seem to be well suitable for one country or place at certain historical period are absolutely unacceptable for another place or another period...

Urban planning depends on myriads of factors, which constantly change with development in other fields, like technology, economy, transportation, and so on. These changes are often unpredictable and fast, while building a city is a very long process. So what looked good at a moment may become very bad in a few decades.

In other words , if anyone claims that he figured out a concept of urban planning, that is universal and optimal for all the places and times, he is just a chatterbox and a charlatan.
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Old October 12th, 2017, 05:36 PM   #593
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Sorry Kalamai, but I disagree with you here as well
City planning is a science when you take into consideration - health, pollution, energy, "green cities", transportation and mobility etc.
All of these and more get into the modern city model, it's definitely not only about aesthetics and lifestyle,
a lot of complex algorithms, statistical data and research is behind these models, and to compare it to any stupid fashion trend is simply incorrect.

Obviously technology changes as well, you should expect these models to adapt accordingly, and they take future technologies into account as well.
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Old October 12th, 2017, 07:21 PM   #594
Kalamai
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But all the claims regarding the cities like Harish are based here entirely on aesthetics and assumed lifestyle.
And not on "complex algorithms, statistical data and research".

In other words, it's just a matter of personal taste.

And the reference to "any city planner" is not sufficient enough to be the proof that your taste is better than of someone else.
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Old October 12th, 2017, 07:37 PM   #595
yishbarr
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The thing is that an ideal master plan isn't going to work out until you have residents and have built everything, not on day one. And probably not within the first decade.
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Old October 12th, 2017, 07:42 PM   #596
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalamai View Post
But all the claims regarding the cities like Harish are based here entirely on aesthetics and assumed lifestyle.
And not on "complex algorithms, statistical data and research".

In other words, it's just a matter of personal taste.

And the reference to "any city planner" is not sufficient enough to be the proof that your taste is better than of someone else.

Only that we've seen this argument played out in the US. It doesn't end well. Why do you want to emulate that model?
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Old October 12th, 2017, 08:02 PM   #597
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Only that we've seen this argument played out in the US. It doesn't end well. Why do you want to emulate that model?
What argument?

While it is worth to adopt some good ideas from around the world, we can not and should not emulate somebody else models.

The situation with land resources, demographics, political environment, nature, and many other things in Israel is unique (actually, in the same extent as in any other place and country in the world). So, trying to blindly emulate someone's concepts ans approaches in urban planning (like in many other fields) is simply unwise.
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Old October 12th, 2017, 09:01 PM   #598
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What argument?

The argument that a preference for a European urban model vs American suburban model is just a matter of personal taste and prejudice. The argument that artistry and community are not important, and that the car is paramount in the design consideration, even though we know it produces sprawl, atomization, alienation, and depression.
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Old October 13th, 2017, 12:12 AM   #599
matrix2020
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American suburban model is not so bad for most Americans.
In fact they would be very upset, if they were forced to change into living in big cities built according to European model.
Obviously American model can't work well in Israel for many reasons, but neither is European model.
European cities appear to be too gray and depressing to my taste.
Seeing entire streets built with almost identical houses like they have in London or in Berlin is definitely not something I would want to see happening in Israel.
Europe failed big time in the 60's and 70's with their socialized housing (which now houses immigrants from the 3d world).
Now they seem to be going to another extreme with almost no highrise construction (Israel can't afford not to have residential tower blocks).
Europe (and unfortunately Israel) also has way too many regulations and paperwork when it comes to real estate development.

For large cities I think we should in fact look more closely to cities such as HK and Singapore, then Europe or US.
Singapore in particular is a good example, because indeed Singapore embraced alot from Israel (in many areas of life) and was pretty successful in doing so.
Perhaps we can learn from them as well.
In fact their affordable residential tower blocks, do look rather similar to what we have in Israel in recent years.
We are suffering from the same problems as they do (land shortage, housing prices going up) and both live in rather hot climate (unlike Europe whose housing is totally unfit for our climate).
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Old October 13th, 2017, 04:05 AM   #600
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Lets start with this: the American suburban model doesnt work well in America.
In LA getting out of your house to the city means 1.5-2 hours of traffic jams.
If you are really lucky you are stuck in your car for 1 hour of traffic jams "only".
Its the same case in all big metros with many suburbs all heavily relying on private cars.

Coming with that the huge ugly and noisy highways that cut through the city like Ayalon x2 or x3.
So you get to your street and now what? nothing. the streets are empty. Maybe
you will see someone walking their dog for 5 minutes.
In most of these suburbs you feel unsafe inside your house and outside of it.
you feel weird walking the streets, mostly against walls and gates and car garages.
Theres nothing to see or do, and big threat of being mugged.
The suburb is a dead place thats why you drive again another hour to some mall.
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