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HS2 General Thread (all phases/discussion)

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#1 ·
Just thought I'd see if anybody thinks about this subject as much as I do and if anyone had ideas as to what they'd like to see under this name.

I think the best place for it's London terminus will be St Pancras but how I wonder.

Can see two options possible:

1) an annex on the west side of the existing station

Advantages being more platforms but high speed trains would be blocked from easy interchange with the Eurostars by the Midland Mianline tracks acting as a kind of barrier.

2) an annex on the east side

Infinitley more difficult but with the advantage being Eurostars and domestic HST's would be in the same area of the station.

As for the line itself, the seemingly obvious place to start is using the North London line for relatively low speed running (say about 160-220km/h) through urban London. Although I'm not sure if that single track connection from HS1 would end up being a problem capacity wise.

There would need to be another line going under the current St Pancras-NLL chord and onto the NLL. Think of it like the soon to be opened St Pancras-HS1 layout with the two running tracks going over/under each other.

A station at Willesden Junciton (see my other thread) would be good I reckon and from here the line continues at classic line speeds to Denham before the new High Speed formation breaks away.

Then to get a bit more basic from here the line should go to Coventry Parkway-Birmingham International-Lichfield Trent Valley-Stoke-Stockport-Manchester Eastlands-Preston-Carlisle.......then up to a triangle junction in the Scottish Central belt with links to Glasgow and Edinburgh.

Obviously there would be branches to Liverpool (from Stoke), Leeds (from Manchester) and Derby, Sheffield, Doncaster, York, Teeside & Newcastle (from Birminghm International).

Sorry to go on but it would be good to hear what others think, it might be an irrelevant discussion knowing this Government but it's always interesting to talk about it.
 
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#7,801 ·
The cables have apparently now been laid inside the 1953 bore, this from Wikipedia:

As of 25 April 2012 (2012-04-25)[update], Balfour Beatty, the civil contractors fitting the new electricity cables through the tunnel, were engaged in phase 2 of the project. The cables exiting the tunnel were being laid individually in concrete and sand insulated ducts at the tunnel exit, leading up to, and ready to be connected to, the first pylon. The old galvanised steelwork hanging over the River Etherow was dismantled and removed. The inside of the tunnel has a flat concrete floor and concrete-finished walls and ceiling. The cables run down both sides of the tunnel attached to metal framework from one end to the other. There are six cables running along each wall, each about 12 inches (300 mm) in diameter with thick insulation. Other ducting and cables run along the floor. There is no evidence inside the tunnel that trains used to use it, other than the shape of the tunnel. At the western end of the tunnel the old concrete and tarmac platforms still stand. Recently there was a fire on the banking of the river, ignited by a gas torch being used to cut the metal structure.
No doubt this is reversible at a cost, but it would depend on one of the two 19th century bores being rehabilitated first. Presumably it is possible to do so, with a generous cladding of rebar and shotcrete to provide structural integrity. However you can see why the national grid used the easy option of the 1953 bore. I suspect also the concrete added to the 1953 bore precludes it's use ever again as a double-track tunnel for trains.
 
#7,803 ·
Inferior to a daydream perhaps. Blimey, I remember as a kid hearing about how magnetic levitation was the way forward and steel wheels on steel rails was old hat. Yeah well, 40 years later on and Maglev has still only been built in a few places worldwide. Only the seriously deluded and feeble minded think it is a serious replacement option.


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So, in your mind Japan is "seriously deluded and feeble minded" considering they are planning to have maglev trains running at over 500 k/h well before HS2 ?

You are right that I dont know enough about specific lines and traffic patterns to enter a detailed discussion but it doesnt changed the fact that any decission wheter against or in favour of HS2 will to a certain extent be a gamble.

I generally dont put much faith in people who dont recognise this and are just overly agressive, think they know the absolute truth and dont care in the least how many billions are constantly added to their pet project.
 
#7,804 ·
You really are clueless. Did you not read what I posted about the £10 billion upgrade of the WCML?

What exactly are these thousands of miles of track? Please don't bother with the Great Central argument, only the simple minded believe that alignment (obliterated through Rugby, Leicester and Nottingham) can ever be of use again.

So which other redundant mainlines going North from London are just waiting, untouched, to be born again, ready to provide space for the extra freight trains and commuter services? :nuts:
oxford-cambrigde past Milton keynes is one example of a good line that may be fully re-opened. Its a significant area facing massive population increases all of whom would then live close to good rail.

You will of course claim that particular line is irrellevant because you base everything on supplying capacity for existing travel patterns. But thats too simplistic in my opinion
 
#7,806 ·
It should be both, not either/or.
but its just hard to ignore the massive costs of HS2 especially consdering how HS1 over-estimated passenger numbers and how there seems to be a general loss of faith in the viability of traditional high speed rail. It could end up a financial disaster and you wonder how it would be judged if its opened around the same time Japan open a much faster line, likely costing less.
 
#7,807 ·
oxford-cambrigde past Milton keynes is one example of a good line that may be fully re-opened. Its a significant area facing massive population increases all of whom would then live close to good rail.

You will of course claim that particular line is irrellevant because you base everything on supplying capacity for existing travel patterns. But thats too simplistic in my opinion
Oxford-Cambridge past Milton Keynes isn't London-Birmingham-Manchester-Leeds. It doesn't have anywhwere near the same demand. London-Birmingham-Manchester-Leeds is an axis under pressure. And as for Maglev, it costs far more than a high speed line. The power demand for hundreds of thousands of electromagnets that can suspend hundreds of tons is massive. You can't have junctions. The structures are far less aesthetically pleasing to the eye. No Maglev system runs for hundreds of miles, and there is no Maglev tunnel under the Channel. The revolts we have seen over HS2 will be nothing as against a Maglev system. In short, you're talking out of your backside.
 
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#7,808 ·
So, in your mind Japan is "seriously deluded and feeble minded" considering they are planning to have maglev trains running at over 500 k/h well before HS2 ?

You are right that I dont know enough about specific lines and traffic patterns to enter a detailed discussion but it doesnt changed the fact that any decission wheter against or in favour of HS2 will to a certain extent be a gamble.

I generally dont put much faith in people who dont recognise this and are just overly agressive, think they know the absolute truth and dont care in the least how many billions are constantly added to their pet project.
As you say, you really don't know that much, although by it's nature any investment made anywhere is a gamble that the future will pan out as expected.

The Maglev line planned by the Japanese might be worth doing for them because part of it already exists as a test track and it has a very specific role -essentially acting as a limited stop relief to the existing Shinkansen railway line between Tokyo and Nagoya. Apparently they may start building it next year and finish it by 2027 (a year after HS2 phase 1 is completed). We shall see. Otherwise Maglev at the moment is unproven technology worldwide as a long-distance transport system. Even the Chinese have only one, a short airport shuttle in Shanghai. Other Maglevs schemes have been mothballed and they are busy building thousands of miles of conventional HSR.

Anyone who thinks the unproven Maglev technology is suitable for the UK right here and now in 2013 IS feeble minded and seriously deluded. As far as I'm aware the only existing section of Maglev track in the UK is about 50ft long and has the LEV1 prototype sitting on it (The defunct Railworld in Peterborough). As a country we would be certifiably naive and stupid to contemplate building a transport system that is completely incompatible with what we currently have.

Absolute truth as a concept is meaningless in debates like this - the known facts are what matters when individuals try to understand all the sides of a debate. The reasons to build HS2 are complex, and once properly understood I believe to most sane people they are are compelling - you would do well to read up on them before coming up with sweeping statements like 'Maglev is better'.
 
#7,809 ·
oxford-cambrigde past Milton keynes is one example of a good line that may be fully re-opened. Its a significant area facing massive population increases all of whom would then live close to good rail.

You will of course claim that particular line is irrellevant because you base everything on supplying capacity for existing travel patterns. But thats too simplistic in my opinion
Simplistic is a good description of your understanding of EWR I'm afraid. Although Cambridge is an aspiration, there is no detailed planned route East of Bedford and all options being considered are very expensive. The original line via Sandy is decapitated, and to be honest was very slow and indirect anyway.

The 'significant' area you talk about essentially means Oxford, Bicester, Bletchley/MK and Bedford. All are well served by rail already, just not to each other. Re-instating the mothballed bit between Bletchley and Bicester is well worth doing - but it traverses almosty empty countryside. I know this because I've travelled the line several times, the last time twenty years ago.

EWR is necessary and welcome, but what it will achieve has no bearing on the much more pressing need for HS2. EWR is not an alternative to the overcrowded WCML which is a vital economic transport artery. More people will travel on HS2 in any one day than will use EWR in a whole month. They are not comparable, and do totally different things.
 
#7,810 ·
but its just hard to ignore the massive costs of HS2 especially consdering how HS1 over-estimated passenger numbers and how there seems to be a general loss of faith in the viability of traditional high speed rail. It could end up a financial disaster and you wonder how it would be judged if its opened around the same time Japan open a much faster line, likely costing less.
The HS1 demand mistake was the result of trying to estimate in the late 1980s how many people might in future use a new international transport system that didn't exist - and the calculations did not anticipate the rise of low-cost airlines flying to the continent based on low cost jet fuel.

There is no such theoretical element to the domestic Inter-City passenger flows in the UK. The passenger numbers that exist right now (having doubled in the last 15 years) would be enough to justify building HS2. On the day phase 1 opens it will be one of the busiest High Speed railways anywhere on the planet. It won't have competition from low cost airlines, in fact it will probably wipe some high cost domestic airline routes out.

That Japanese Maglev line has to bored through mountains - do you not know this? It won't be cheap.... Worldwide there is no loss of faith in High Speed rail, only in the UK where so many reactionary types believe what they read in the gutter press.
 
#7,811 ·
Vulcan, I do not doubt anything that you write on this matter as you are clearly knowledgeable on the subject. However, I do find myself deeply sceptical about HS2 for the following reasons:
1) With the size of the British Isles (and the majority of them living in and around London, the Midlands and the North West) do we really need domestic high speed rail?
2) Can we really believe the projected passenger numbers?
3) Given that the WCML will reach capacity south of MK, for example, first. Is a better strategy to widen existing rail corridors into London to provide more long distance capacity?
4) Also, when we talk about lines reaching capacity, we are generally talking about the morning and evening rushes. What more could be done with better signalling, longer trains, removing bottlenecks and better interchanges? OOC to Crossrail could still go ahead, for example.

The cost of HS2 is huge and it would be naive to think that funding elsewhere on the network would not be affected. This is partly because of the significant mitigation that is being agreed to. So, the capacity we are getting (due to the green tunnels et al) is going to come at too high a price and will, in turn, result in high ticket prices for a long time to come.

I am not against large infrastructure projects (see my posts on SE airport capacity) but we need to make sure that the solution is right for Britain and one that maintains our competitiveness.

Using the airport capacity as an example, it is easy for anybody with an interest to look at the options and proposals on the table and then make up their mind. With HS2, not enough has been done to show and explain the alternatives. Until this happens, I will remain sceptical.
 
#7,812 ·
I feel really sorry for Vulcan.

He has answered patiently each and every of those points dozens of times, you expect him to repeat it again for the hundredth time because you can't be arsed reading back through just a couple of pages.

I'd suggest you aren't actually that interested in the scheme given how little effort you've taken to read back just a couple of pages.

And before you say people like you need to be convinced of the merits, well no, the reality is it really doesn't matter what the opinion of me and you is on this, it'll make zero difference whatsoever.
 
#7,813 ·
Vulcan, I do not doubt anything that you write on this matter as you are clearly knowledgeable on the subject. However, I do find myself deeply sceptical about HS2 for the following reasons:
1) With the size of the British Isles (and the majority of them living in and around London, the Midlands and the North West) do we really need domestic high speed rail?
2) Can we really believe the projected passenger numbers?
3) Given that the WCML will reach capacity south of MK, for example, first. Is a better strategy to widen existing rail corridors into London to provide more long distance capacity?
4) Also, when we talk about lines reaching capacity, we are generally talking about the morning and evening rushes. What more could be done with better signalling, longer trains, removing bottlenecks and better interchanges? OOC to Crossrail could still go ahead, for example.

The cost of HS2 is huge and it would be naive to think that funding elsewhere on the network would not be affected. This is partly because of the significant mitigation that is being agreed to. So, the capacity we are getting (due to the green tunnels et al) is going to come at too high a price and will, in turn, result in high ticket prices for a long time to come.

I am not against large infrastructure projects (see my posts on SE airport capacity) but we need to make sure that the solution is right for Britain and one that maintains our competitiveness.

Using the airport capacity as an example, it is easy for anybody with an interest to look at the options and proposals on the table and then make up their mind. With HS2, not enough has been done to show and explain the alternatives. Until this happens, I will remain sceptical.
1) It's not about speed, it's about capacity. If you are to build a new line you might as well build it straight.
2) There has been sustained growth in passenger numbers in the last decade. There is still plenty of room for modal shift (especially on Anglo-Scottish flows) as well as natural growth in overall travel demand. The projected numbers don't look out of line at all.
3) It's cheaper to build on pastures new than to tinker with existing alignments through built up areas bothering with Victorian bridges and tunnels.
4) Been there, done that - the last WCML upgrade cost £9bn and achieved next to nothing yet caused disruptions for countless weekends. Multiply that by 4 and it's clear HS2 is pretty damn good value for money.
 
#7,814 ·
1) It's not about speed, it's about capacity. If you are to build a new line you might as well build it straight.
2) There has been sustained growth in passenger numbers in the last decade. There is still plenty of room for modal shift (especially on Anglo-Scottish flows) as well as natural growth in overall travel demand. The projected numbers don't look out of line at all.
3) It's cheaper to build on pastures new than to tinker with existing alignments through built up areas bothering with Victorian bridges and tunnels.
4) Been there, done that - the last WCML upgrade cost £9bn and achieved next to nothing yet caused disruptions for countless weekends. Multiply that by 4 and it's clear HS2 is pretty damn good value for money.
Here's the devil's advocate in me!

1) If it's about capacity and not speed, why have we not seen the costings for, say, four tracking the Chiltern Line between London and Birmingham?
2) Yes, I do get the growth but, again, there are relief lines, disused lines and under utilised lines that, if upgraded, could increase the overall capacity.
3) Cheaper to build on pastures new, unless you end up tunnelling under said pastures, maybe!
4) Four tracking the Trent Valley = next to nothing? I don't have the data but with better notification and acts of parliament, does so much need to be paid out in compensation?

Again, I respect everything you write, I just haven't been won over because I cannot see cost versus capacity increase versus degree of disruption for any other option but HS2.
 
#7,816 ·
Here's the devil's advocate in me!

1) If it's about capacity and not speed, why have we not seen the costings for, say, four tracking the Chiltern Line between London and Birmingham?
2) Yes, I do get the growth but, again, there are relief lines, disused lines and under utilised lines that, if upgraded, could increase the overall capacity.
3) Cheaper to build on pastures new, unless you end up tunnelling under said pastures, maybe!
4) Four tracking the Trent Valley = next to nothing? I don't have the data but with better notification and acts of parliament, does so much need to be paid out in compensation?

Again, I respect everything you write, I just haven't been won over because I cannot see cost versus capacity increase versus degree of disruption for any other option but HS2.
1) It was done and costed, by Atkins in 2009. Takes me 30 seconds to find the PDF on Google and I seem to be doing that every few weeks for lazy people who can't be bothered to find it themselves. The BCR for major upgrade of the Chiltern route was utterly crap by the way.
2) WCML/MML/ECML relief lines are pretty damn full as well, with stopping trains and freight. But no-one wants to go on a slow train stuck behind a stopper anyway. As for disused and underutilised lines going North from London, just try naming them.There are no London Termini sitting around with empty platforms and rusty approach tracks (Broad Street was the last, closed in 1986).
3) Tunneling (at about £150 million a mile for two bores) is often cheaper and easier in built up areas.
4) Actually the Trent Valley was already partly 3rd and 4th tracked long before PUG2. One section North of Brinklow STILL doesn't have 4 tracks. I personally remember several years of taking 'RIO' trains at weekends from St Pancras to Manchester, taking the best part of four hours to get there. And now the railway is carrying far more passengers than it did 5 years ago. So, $64million question - how on Earth do you cater for all those extra passengers if you close the WCML every weekend for years? And what effect does it have on the UK economy?
 
#7,817 ·
Vulcan, I do not doubt anything that you write on this matter as you are clearly knowledgeable on the subject. However, I do find myself deeply sceptical about HS2 for the following reasons:
1) With the size of the British Isles (and the majority of them living in and around London, the Midlands and the North West) do we really need domestic high speed rail?
2) Can we really believe the projected passenger numbers?
3) Given that the WCML will reach capacity south of MK, for example, first. Is a better strategy to widen existing rail corridors into London to provide more long distance capacity?
4) Also, when we talk about lines reaching capacity, we are generally talking about the morning and evening rushes. What more could be done with better signalling, longer trains, removing bottlenecks and better interchanges? OOC to Crossrail could still go ahead, for example.

The cost of HS2 is huge and it would be naive to think that funding elsewhere on the network would not be affected. This is partly because of the significant mitigation that is being agreed to. So, the capacity we are getting (due to the green tunnels et al) is going to come at too high a price and will, in turn, result in high ticket prices for a long time to come.

I am not against large infrastructure projects (see my posts on SE airport capacity) but we need to make sure that the solution is right for Britain and one that maintains our competitiveness.

Using the airport capacity as an example, it is easy for anybody with an interest to look at the options and proposals on the table and then make up their mind. With HS2, not enough has been done to show and explain the alternatives. Until this happens, I will remain sceptical.
1) HS2 distances are very similar to many HS lines in France and Japan, and Japan is more densely populated. Neither argument stands up to simple scrutiny, the UK is the perfect size.
2) Can we afford to disbelieve them only to find that the railways become choked up and our economy suffers?
3) No, a lot of houses and industry line the sides of WCML between MK and London. The disruption would be huge and train services would have to be reduced for years. Unlike the Trent Valley there is no reasonable diversionary route either.
4) Atkins dealt with all this, read their report to see why it would only add 20-30% capacity at most and at a huge cost.

Plenty of research and detailed analysis has been done by HS2's consultants in the last few years - if your mind is open I suggest that you go and find it. There is no other credible way I'm aware of to provide the extra capacity that HS2 can. Up to 18 trains an hour, up to 1100 seats every 3 minutes. It can't be done on existing tracks.
 
#7,818 ·
I feel really sorry for Vulcan.

He has answered patiently each and every of those points dozens of times, you expect him to repeat it again for the hundredth time because you can't be arsed reading back through just a couple of pages.

I'd suggest you aren't actually that interested in the scheme given how little effort you've taken to read back just a couple of pages.

And before you say people like you need to be convinced of the merits, well no, the reality is it really doesn't matter what the opinion of me and you is on this, it'll make zero difference whatsoever.
No, he has not answered hardly any of the points, simply because he is unable to.

For example he can not explain why Nottingham, Sheffield and Derby are not directly connected to HS2.
To illustrate my point about direct connectivity, I asked him how he would feel about being on a 'train to London' that only stops on the outskirts instead, Watford for example.
No answer.

I asked him whether he thought Waterloo International was a bright idea.
His 'answer': Doesn't matter, it can be an extension of Waterloo now. :nuts:

I asked him why HS2 should not take inspiration from the Japanese and its plans for 300mph+ trains.
His 'answer': That's just a feeble minded daydream.

Thanks all the same but I don't think I will be asking your in-house expert any more questions.
 
#7,819 ·
I feel really sorry for Vulcan.

He has answered patiently each and every of those points dozens of times, you expect him to repeat it again for the hundredth time because you can't be arsed reading back through just a couple of pages.

I'd suggest you aren't actually that interested in the scheme given how little effort you've taken to read back just a couple of pages.

And before you say people like you need to be convinced of the merits, well no, the reality is it really doesn't matter what the opinion of me and you is on this, it'll make zero difference whatsoever.
I must admit I'm now getting a bit arsey with people who so obviously know very little about this subject, yet seem to think there are so many unanswered questions just because they don't know the answers. Every question I've ever seen posed on here has been considered and answered by HS2 Ltd or their consultants. Perhaps I should just keep reposting my previous anwers rather than creating new ones for each sceptic. :eek:hno:

Personally I wouldn't dream of shooting my mouth off online about any subject until I had spent a very long time reading, researching and thoroughly understanding it first. But I guess that some people don't mind appearing clueless or blinkered on an internet forum?

My opinion on the necessity for HS2 has also been formed by travelling on trains in at least 17 countries over 30 years, including experiencing high speed trains in France, Belgium, Germany and Japan. It's a shame so many think that an attitude born of ignorance is a good way to engage in debate.

High Speed rail is happening all over the world and transforming travel for millions, with many new routes being planned. There is absolutely nothing about Britain which makes it different / better / worse than the other countries where high speed rail has been introduced or soon will be. Indeed what the anti brigade can't deal with is that we've had it (HSR) right here in the UK since 2003 and no sh*t Sherlock, it works very well!!!


Brazil: http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...lian-high-speed-rail-tendering-postponed.html

Australia: http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...published.html?sword_list[]=sydney&no_cache=1

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...-to-melbourne-high-speed-study-published.html

China: http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...d-survey-2013-china-sprints-out-in-front.html

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...n-in-china.html?sword_list[]=china&no_cache=1

USA: http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...-bids.html?sword_list[]=california&no_cache=1
 
#7,820 · (Edited)
No, he has not answered hardly any of the points, simply because he is unable to.

For example he can not explain why Nottingham, Sheffield and Derby are not directly connected to HS2.
To illustrate my point about direct connectivity, I asked him how he would feel about being on a 'train to London' that only stops on the outskirts instead, Watford for example.
No answer.

I asked him whether he thought Waterloo International was a bright idea.
His 'answer': Doesn't matter, it can be an extension of Waterloo now. :nuts:

I asked him why HS2 should not take inspiration from the Japanese and its plans for 300mph+ trains.
His 'answer': That's just a feeble minded daydream.
I know why, such a shame you can't work it out - because a line stopping in Derby, Nottingham AND Sheffield isn't going to be any better than what is already in existance. The clue is in the name - HIGH SPEED.

Waterloo International did the job it was designed for, and it will soon be doing another important job for the nation. It was well worth doing because it helped make the politicians realise that doomsayers like you were wrong and that Britain needed a dedicated High Speed link to the tunnel.

Thanks all the same but I don't think I will be asking your in-house expert any more questions.
Who cares what one deluded anti does! Keep dreaming about your Maglev future that will never happen! :nuts:

I suspect however you are the latest incarnation of Mad John/Duh!
 
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