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Old November 13th, 2009, 10:27 PM   #21
Slagathor
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If my opinion is irrelevant, then so is yours.
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Old November 14th, 2009, 12:16 AM   #22
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I live in a state where its half and half the busiest lines are Electric and semi busiest are Diesel for now , soon will be electric in 10 years after some projects are completed. New Jersey is a unique system and very big , every large city in NJ is served by Rail and some cities have Light Rail

our Old EMU


Our New EMU (i know its big and i don't care what you think about America Trainsets and Locos)

image hosted on flickr



Old DMU



New DMU



Old Trainsets



New Trainsets, *note NJT & Metro North share trainsets on some routes in NJ



New Bi-Level sets



Gladstone line Trainsets



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Old November 14th, 2009, 12:22 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by earthJoker View Post
From a Swiss point of view there isn't much landscape to see in the Netherlands anyway
That's because the average Swiss has never seen a horizon. Those ugly mountains obstruct your views, like a prison.
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Old November 14th, 2009, 03:09 PM   #24
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I love double decker US train sets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slagathor View Post
If my opinion is irrelevant, then so is yours.
It is true
It is ugly or not is only our opinion, it is not like commie blocks where 70% or more think they are ugly
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Old November 14th, 2009, 05:23 PM   #25
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furthermore, the new EMUs allow for feeding back the energy from braking into the system and all the way to another EMU that is accelerating at the exact same time
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Old November 14th, 2009, 06:35 PM   #26
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I have no problem with DMU, or diesel locomotives. In fact, NJ transit has a very nice collection of locomotives ranging from 40 year old veterans to brand new tier 3 4 stroke beasties that can accelerate all most as fast as an EMU.

The support structure of the overhead lines of the HBLR are actually kinda nice, they make them look like lamp posts when running on the street, then on viaduct they are round tube columns.

I really don't have a problem with overhead lines for train power, but i think transmission lines could be put underground. Problem is people want big huge cars and smooth roads, not reliable ascetically neutral power grid. Priorities are a bit backwards here, but hey at least W is out of office.

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Old November 14th, 2009, 07:58 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slagathor View Post
"thats not how things work"??

There are degrees, aren't there? Nobody is saying the railway track should be made of wood and the trains of sheepskin. But overhead wiring in open farmland is probably more intrusive than overhead wiring in an urban environment to the average person. It just stands out more.
In a lot of historical city centers overhead wires are found extremely intrusive while some high trees can easily hide overhead wires in an open environment.

(Off course, it's all very subjective)
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Old November 14th, 2009, 08:48 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexis View Post
I live in a state where its half and half the busiest lines are Electric and semi busiest are Diesel for now , soon will be electric in 10 years after some projects are completed. New Jersey is a unique system and very big , every large city in NJ is served by Rail and some cities have Light Rail

our Old EMU


Our New EMU (i know its big and i don't care what you think about America Trainsets and Locos)

image hosted on flickr



Old DMU



New DMU



Old Trainsets



New Trainsets, *note NJT & Metro North share trainsets on some routes in NJ



New Bi-Level sets



Gladstone line Trainsets



~Corey

All Pictures are gathered form Wikipedia except one Flickr account
The only DMU in use in New Jersey is the RiverLINE light rail DMU. The rest are locomotives or EMU. HBLR and NCS have EMU light rail. Arrow 3 are EMU main line heavy rail. The "bi-levels" are multi-level vehicle or MLV. Bilevels are a different type of railcar. We don't have trainsets in the united states aside from the acela, everything else is individual coaches. Also, not all big cities are served by rail, in fact several medium and large cities in NJ are totally without rail transportation since private carriers such as the CRRNJ shut down back in the 70's. NJ used to have more pax track miles per person than any state, it's about 1/13th of what it used to be, thankfully NJT is trying to restore as much of the old service as possible.

- A
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Old November 15th, 2009, 02:07 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poshbakerloo View Post
Is diesel rail that bad? When people 'brag' about how good there countries rail network is, quite often they quote the percentage that the network is electrified...

Although I can see for true HSR you need electric trains for 180-200Mph running...

...Does it really matter of your normal commuter 75-100Mph and regular intercity trains 100-130Mph...are diesel?

People quite often just think that if a rail network is mainly diesel, its backwards, slow, lacking in investment and dirty...[/B][/I]
Virtually all transportation in the US is dependent upon petroleum, of which the US imports two thirds. Rail electrification is an off the shelf technology which does not suffer when something happens in the Middle East, that would seem to be it's major advantage.
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Old November 15th, 2009, 10:51 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoKo65 View Post
There is a simple solution for that: Use a life rail!
Here in the UK. pretty much most of the south east and London area uses 3rd rail. And also some of the Liverpool lines. The main issue seems to be the top speed. The fastest 3rd rail train is the Class 442 (105Mph)

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Old November 16th, 2009, 12:06 AM   #31
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In addition to whay everyone else already said, I must add that rail
technology has evolved quite fast those last years, so that if a given
level of service was requiring electric traction ten years ago, it is not
necessarily the case anymore now. We now produce DMUs with such
a level of comfort and performance that it can perfectly do what EMUs
did 10 years ago. So it's not an all black-and-white situation.

Also, it is certainly a matter of habits too. European manufacturing
tends to produce very good electric traction rolling stock, but is
very poor when it comes to build reliable diesel locs. As an example,
Iranian railways still operate the diesel locs that they got from the
US in the sixties, because they perform better than the Prima locs
they got from France 5 years ago... So we tend to electrify a lot
because we pretend that diesel is unreliable. But look at the new
operators, they do not have the same relationship with the rail
industry that national operators still have, so they grew wiser and
buy class 66 engines - US design - and they don't suffer unreliability
problems.

On the other hand, when it comes to electric traction, even mother
america buys from Europe, despite their "buy american" laws... The
AEM-7s that operate Amtrak trains on the NEC are based on a
swedish design, and the new NJT electric locs whose pictures
have been posted here are also pure European technology. Same
for the Acela trainsets. The last electric loc that was designed
entirely in the US was the EE60 and it has been a complete failure.
It's therefore no real surprise to hear the US railway managers
say that electrification is inherently inefficient...
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Old November 16th, 2009, 12:15 AM   #32
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We had some really neat DMU in the us for about 30 years.

Budd company RDC:


Budd company SPV2000:


The SPV2000 was not nearly as successful or reliable as the RDC, however many of both types were in use up to the mid 80's.

- A
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Old November 16th, 2009, 02:30 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by earthJoker View Post
Just one example:

This is one of the most famous motives in Switzerland (including the train). I don't see where the overhead wires look that bad.
It's worth noting that the Gornergratbahn uses 3-phase current instead of the usual single-phase setup. That is, it has two separate live wires (current 120 degrees out of phase) for each track (with the rails acting as the ground). And it still manages to look lean and graceful.
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Old November 16th, 2009, 02:09 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank IBC View Post
It's worth noting that the Gornergratbahn uses 3-phase current instead of the usual single-phase setup. That is, it has two separate live wires (current 120 degrees out of phase) for each track (with the rails acting as the ground). And it still manages to look lean and graceful.
For the rails to be ground they need return cables. There are too many variations & inconstancies in the rail not to mention they are usually set on insulators to allow free movement on the tie/sleeper. Are there any photos of the return cables??

- A
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Old November 16th, 2009, 07:19 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by metsfan View Post
For the rails to be ground they need return cables. There are too many variations & inconstancies in the rail not to mention they are usually set on insulators to allow free movement on the tie/sleeper. Are there any photos of the return cables??

- A
I think you might be confusing the properties of the ground rail with that of the caternary or live third rail. While some subway systems use a separate, insulated "fourth" rail for the ground, none of the systems shown here do. I do not see any other "cables" or "insulators" along the tracks.

For three-phase systems, there are two hot wires and one neutral wire (in this case, the rails).
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Old November 16th, 2009, 11:05 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poshbakerloo View Post
Is diesel rail that bad? When people 'brag' about how good there countries rail network is, quite often they quote the percentage that the network is electrified...

Although I can see for true HSR you need electric trains for 180-200Mph running...

...Does it really matter of your normal commuter 75-100Mph and regular intercity trains 100-130Mph...are diesel?

People quite often just think that if a rail network is mainly diesel, its backwards, slow, lacking in investment and dirty...

England does have a mainly diesel rail network, and sometimes, yes, you get trains like this...



But most of the time its not all bad...all of the main lines run 125Mph tilting trains...



Do you shudder at the thought of diesel trains?
I "once" rode on those pieces of pure cr*p that they call Voyagers over there ... I swore to myself that I would NEVER AGAIN comit such foolishness act!!!!!!



There is no "peace" in traveling at 125mph inside a industrial strenght food/cake bakery/mixer (or whatever extremely depreciative name you wish to call those things).

The HST with their top'n'tail configuration are "sufferable" ... the one'engin'per'coach newer trains are pure cr*p in terms of passenger confort (specially the excessive noise levels and trepidation).


Most HST nowadays is electrified precisely because it saves in micromanagement of the infraestructure and rolingstock.
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Old November 16th, 2009, 11:07 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Jonesy55 View Post
Some networks on the continent, I wouldn't say that the british network is way behind Romania, Portugal or Poland.

In fact I think that in terms of capacity we are behind France and Germany, similar to Italy but carry more passenger/kms than any other network in Europe.



Define your criteria please ???
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Old November 16th, 2009, 11:22 PM   #38
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i hate diesel trains, they are dirty and bad for the environment, in highbury and islinglon station (london) sometimes i see these diesel cargo trains pass by and they belch a lot of black smoke, and the platform stinks. electric trains are the best
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Old November 17th, 2009, 02:41 AM   #39
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poshbakerloo, don't feel bad about British rail. Just think about America, and you won't feel bad anymore.

But your point is well-made. From an engineering perspective, what counts in achieving high speed is essentially the power-to-weight ratio, which is generally much higher for electric locomotives than diesel locomotives.

However, it is still possible to design trains running on non-electrified rail lines that can achieve high speed. The use of turbocharged 2-stroke diesels, and especially modern gas turbines, provides a very high power output, perhaps operable in the 140-180 mph range. It is unfortunate that most 2-strokes are designed for high torque rather than high speed. Combined with batteries and regenerative braking, you can attach more power cars and/or motors in the consist, achieving even higher power density.
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Old November 17th, 2009, 03:22 AM   #40
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However, it is still possible to design trains running on non-electrified rail lines that can achieve high speed. The use of turbocharged 2-stroke diesels, and especially modern gas turbines, provides a very high power output, perhaps operable in the 140-180 mph range. It is unfortunate that most 2-strokes are designed for high torque rather than high speed. Combined with batteries and regenerative braking, you can attach more power cars and/or motors in the consist, achieving even higher power density.
but it will never reach the electric trains because it would still have to carry a lot more weight

if you make some sort of a hybrid diesel train thats even worse, just imagine the weight of those batteries

not to mention the fact that all of those advantages already exist with EMUs and a remote power source
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