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Old November 23rd, 2009, 09:56 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slartibartfas View Post
Diesel electric engines are pretty much "hybrid". They are quite common but heavier if am not mistaken though.
True. Most of them are hybrid, but not regenerative.
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Old November 23rd, 2009, 11:49 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by He Named Thor View Post
Yeah, I looked this up. The cars have had such an odd history . I guess the SPVs were converted back. So (if they are still in use) if you are riding in an Amfleet you may actually be in one of these old SPVs.
It was not a conversion... May be I did not express myself too well. The
design of the amfleet car/metroliner has been used to build the SPV
motorcoach but they have been built anew. I wonder if this picture is
recent, I thaught that the SPVs had been scratched.

On the other end, before the SPV you had the RDC, a much more successful
design, which dates back almost from end of WW2. Those ones have indeed
been used as hauled coaches at the end of their life. I remember whole trains
of RDCs hauled by one loc, F40PH or something like that, on suburban lines
out of Boston North Station, with the RDC engines idling to produce power
for the A/C. That was back in the 70ies. Things have hopefully upgraded
since then over there !
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Old November 25th, 2009, 08:13 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
It was not a conversion... May be I did not express myself too well. The
design of the amfleet car/metroliner has been used to build the SPV
motorcoach but they have been built anew. I wonder if this picture is
recent, I thaught that the SPVs had been scratched.
Got it.

The Wikipedia page threw me off, as it mentions the spvs being converted to passenger cars.


Quote:
On the other end, before the SPV you had the RDC, a much more successful
design, which dates back almost from end of WW2. Those ones have indeed
been used as hauled coaches at the end of their life. I remember whole trains
of RDCs hauled by one loc, F40PH or something like that, on suburban lines
out of Boston North Station, with the RDC engines idling to produce power
for the A/C. That was back in the 70ies. Things have hopefully upgraded
since then over there !
You never really know in this country.
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Old November 26th, 2009, 11:20 PM   #64
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Several companies here make battery diesel switchers. The diesel engine only charges the batteries, braking is regenerative as well.

- A
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Old November 28th, 2009, 03:18 AM   #65
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I have to say that diesel trains are much worse than electrics. They are noisy as hell and the pollution is terrible. I live in the west of England and all our trains are diesels, our network has suffered from years of underinvestment and poor management. Recently they have announced the electrification of the great western main line and south Wales line, which will be the first improvement since the 70s. It will cut the current Bristol to London time of 1h44m to 1h25m, which would be a major improvement. I have used the trains in the south east before which are electrified and they are brilliant, reliable, quick and cheap. Most of the UK stands out as backwards when it comes to railways by still using diesel.
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Old November 28th, 2009, 07:07 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stainless View Post
Most of the UK stands out as backwards when it comes to railways by still using diesel.
I don't really see diesel as backwards. Not as good at electric maybe, but modern high speed diesel trains I don't think are that bad. A lot of the turbostars really are quite good.
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Old November 29th, 2009, 03:17 AM   #67
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diesel trains are slow and noisy and they stink, electric is the way to go
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Old November 29th, 2009, 01:11 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poshbakerloo View Post
I don't really see diesel as backwards. Not as good at electric maybe, but modern high speed diesel trains I don't think are that bad. A lot of the turbostars really are quite good.
If you compare the efficiency rates of diesel engines to electric motors then it IS backwards.
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Old November 29th, 2009, 01:37 PM   #69
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I tend to agree. The on site pollution is also not to be ignored, especially next to very frequented diesel tracks.
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Old November 29th, 2009, 01:55 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebasepoiss View Post
If you compare the efficiency rates of diesel engines to electric motors then it IS backwards.
Sure ! But one should not forget that the electricity that is transformed
into motive power at an efficiency above 90% is itself coming, mostly, from a
thermal power plant whose efficiency is, at best, at 40% or so. So, for the
complete energy supply chain, diesel is not that far behind electric.
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Old November 30th, 2009, 02:53 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by transman View Post
diesel trains are slow and noisy and they stink, electric is the way to go
that is very true. but i've been on electric trains that are very slow, noisy and they also smelt really bad. but that train was fairly old, was probably from the 1950's
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Old December 14th, 2009, 07:26 PM   #72
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I might be wrong on my beliefs, but diesel passenger rail = crap, third world for me.
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Old December 14th, 2009, 10:44 PM   #73
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yes electric is better.

but diesel rail beats no rail at all, and sometimes is the only appropriate alternative.

take my area in the north bay of the san francisco bay area. we are right now building a diesel commuter line that spans over 70 miles. since the line will be shared with heavy freight locomotives, diesel (FRA-compliant DMUs) were chosen as the best type of vehicle for this kind of service. it was difficult enough to get the region to vote yes (by a necessary two-thirds majority no less) to a .25% sales tax to fund the project, the public would never have supported the huge cost (and waste) of electrifying the entire line. keep in mind this line will have a est. daily ridership of about 5000 - not bad for the type of service and the relatively low population.

http://www.sonomamarintrain.org/

btw - if u do the math, this train (even tho it is diesel) is far better for the environment than the cars it will take off our roads and freeway(s).

Last edited by jchernin; December 14th, 2009 at 10:52 PM.
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Old December 15th, 2009, 03:59 PM   #74
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Quote:
United Kingdom Commits to Further Rail Electrification

December 15, 2009

Andrew Adonis, the United Kingdom’s Secretary of State for Transport, announced yesterday that the government would invest £200 million in the increased electrification of the railway system, adding to a commitment made last summer and furthering the country’s investment in carbon-friendly transportation systems.

According to Mr. Adonis, new funds would be allocated by 2016 to three projects in Northwest England: a connection between Blackpool and the West Coast Main Line; a link between Manchester and Euxton Junction; and a corridor between Huyton and Wigan. This comes in addition to the £1.1 billion worth of announcements made in July, which included the electrification of the corridor between Liverpool and Manchester and the installation of overhead catenary along the Great Western Main Line between London and Reading, Bristol, Cardiff, and Oxford. The line between Bedford and Sheffield may also be electrified by 2020 as part of a larger interest in electrifying the country’s network.

The net effect: an increase in total rail passenger miles traveled on electric trains from 60% today to 67% in 2017, with new service to 22 towns and cities formerly only welcoming diesel trains. Customers will benefit from faster travel between Scotland and Northwest England and from London to Wales. Pollutants from diesel locomotives will be reduced, with a corresponding uptick in electricity usage.

Rolling stock on the newly electric lines will come from the already electric London-area commuter railroads being replaced by the Crossrail regional rail scheme, which in turn will be receiving new trains once its new train tunnel opens under London city center. In addition, the government is planning an investment in 1,300 more cars for the system as a whole.

The recent focus on rail by the U.K.’s Labour government comes at the conclusion of twelve years in power, with elections next year likely to result in a Conservative win. Much of the first decade under the leadership of Prime Minister Tony Blair meant limited investment in the new mode outside of an upgrade of the West Coast Main Line as the government simply attempted to correct the mess that resulted from the privatization of British Rail in the early 1990s; that effort is yet to be completed, as the recent failure of several operating contracts attests.

With pressure from the rival Conservatives to develop a plan for high-speed rail, Labourites have pushed their own improvement programs focusing on electrification and the High-Speed 2 program, which would connect London and Scotland in just over two hours. A decision on the alignment of that line will be announced in the spring, just prior to elections. Labour is clearly attempting to use a renewed focus on rail improvements as an electoral point-booster. Whether the citizenry will be convinced is another matter, since Labour suffers from deep unpopularity as a result of its long stay in government, limited ability to improve public services, and involvement in the Iraq War.

No matter, each of these electrification projects is good news for the country’s transportation system, since they will ultimately result in faster, more reliable trains. Electric vehicles provide the benefit of eliminating point-source pollutants, but their implementation may or may not produce overall lower carbon emissions since that depends on the source of electric power. If Britain’s electricity continues to be sourced primarily from coal, gas, and oil, improvements will be minor; a more serious switch to nuclear and renewable sources in compliance with objectives that may be established this week in Copenhagen would make electric trains far more environmentally sustainable.
a good article relating to electrification taken from the transport politic
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Old December 17th, 2009, 02:16 AM   #75
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Oh dear, New Zealand trains are almost entirely diesel. However, we are getting new "hybrid" trains from China and there are plans for a high speed link between Auckland and Wellington which should be electric and enter service around 2012 (Fingers crossed).

In the meantime, we'll just have to stick with our ancient, badly funded and maintained railway infratructure.
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Old December 17th, 2009, 06:36 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
Sure ! But one should not forget that the electricity that is transformed
into motive power at an efficiency above 90% is itself coming, mostly, from a
thermal power plant whose efficiency is, at best, at 40% or so. So, for the
complete energy supply chain, diesel is not that far behind electric.
the french use nuclear power ... most others use either damns or other sources of EASILY AVAILABLE free power (such as water , wind or solar).

People tend to INVEST FOR THE FUTURE when building such infraestructures ... the british are just negating reality (until HS2 is built at least).

Most routes that are served with 100mph diesels could be better served by 140mph tilting EMU's ... most routes served by 124mph DMU's could be served nowadays by 200mph HS trains ... most of the track infraestructure upgrades could be WELL PAID OVER if you had done that 20 years ago.

Heres a couple of random examples:

Paddington-Didcot could take 15 minutes (200mph trains) or 20 minutes (140mph trains)

the entire London-Peterborough-York trip could be sheduled for a little over 55 minutes (trains at 200mph or more) ... you have the signaling , electrification and 4 track space available to do so ... just needed to invest propperly at a propper time ... they choose not to do so.

from yorkto the north a ATP stiled tilting train would save HUGe amounts of time ... again ... not done.

Midland Main line and GWR not being electrified could (and should) be considered crimes against the nation ... or something like that.

Nevermind the commuter areas where diesels still run ... travel times FELL abruptly when an EMU replaces a DMU service ... acceleration is nothing alike.
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Old December 17th, 2009, 10:53 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post

Heres a couple of random examples:

Paddington-Didcot could take 15 minutes (200mph trains) or 20 minutes (140mph trains)

the entire London-Peterborough-York trip could be sheduled for a little over 55 minutes (trains at 200mph or more) ... you have the signaling , electrification and 4 track space available to do so ... just needed to invest propperly at a propper time ... they choose not to do so.

from yorkto the north a ATP stiled tilting train would save HUGe amounts of time ... again ... not done.

Midland Main line and GWR not being electrified could (and should) be considered crimes against the nation ... or something like that.

Nevermind the commuter areas where diesels still run ... travel times FELL abruptly when an EMU replaces a DMU service ... acceleration is nothing alike.
The Great western main line is getting electrified and so is the Liverpool-Manchester route. All the express DMUs here are tilting, I'm not big fan of them mainly because of the noise inside.
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Last edited by poshbakerloo; December 21st, 2009 at 04:28 PM.
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Old December 18th, 2009, 02:32 AM   #78
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Riding the UK rail network is like time travel for me. Yes it is backwards.
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Old December 18th, 2009, 03:41 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post

Most routes that are served with 100mph diesels could be better served by 140mph tilting EMU's ... most routes served by 124mph DMU's could be served nowadays by 200mph HS trains ... most of the track infraestructure upgrades could be WELL PAID OVER if you had done that 20 years ago.

Heres a couple of random examples:

Paddington-Didcot could take 15 minutes (200mph trains) or 20 minutes (140mph trains)

the entire London-Peterborough-York trip could be sheduled for a little over 55 minutes (trains at 200mph or more) ... you have the signaling , electrification and 4 track space available to do so ... just needed to invest propperly at a propper time ... they choose not to do so.

from yorkto the north a ATP stiled tilting train would save HUGe amounts of time ... again ... not done.

Midland Main line and GWR not being electrified could (and should) be considered crimes against the nation ... or something like that.

Nevermind the commuter areas where diesels still run ... travel times FELL abruptly when an EMU replaces a DMU service ... acceleration is nothing alike.

175mph on the GWR, maximum, for some sections, 155mph for much of the rest of it. It could not be higher, but that is still a massive improvement.

Most of the rest of the network would get nothing like as fast a service if the existing track is upgraded. And upgrading the existing network for speed is costly way of achieving little.

Last edited by makita09; December 18th, 2009 at 03:47 PM.
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Old December 18th, 2009, 04:51 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goschio View Post
Riding the UK rail network is like time travel for me. Yes it is backwards.
When exactly was it you did that? It really not that bad, overcrowded yes, but that has a lot to do with the silly population density here.
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