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Old April 25th, 2010, 05:29 PM   #121
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Quote:
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The odd thing is that these trains are considered "light rail" in the US, with all attending complications, whereas in Europe they comply with the current mainline rail TSI safety requirements just fine...
Too get around the retarded FRA rules , you need to get creative sometimes , and some of these lines don't warrant a commuter rail anymore.
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Old April 25th, 2010, 11:32 PM   #122
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Lots of Diesel Passenger services here.
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Old April 28th, 2010, 03:43 AM   #123
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ANY conventional european/japanese passenger car can be easily converted to FRA aproved american standards ...



... one just needs to replace the aluminium frames with skyscraper graded steel pilars ... and the replacement for any light alloy/fiberglass/plastic covering just needs to be moulded with cast iron.


Voila ... american FRA aproved light rail momuter traffic.

Quote:
image hosted on flickr

Who knows ... with a 30ton. axle load this beasts can weight as much as 360ton ... 90 ton per car ???
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Old April 28th, 2010, 06:02 AM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
ANY conventional european/japanese passenger car can be easily converted to FRA aproved american standards ...



... one just needs to replace the aluminium frames with skyscraper graded steel pilars ... and the replacement for any light alloy/fiberglass/plastic covering just needs to be moulded with cast iron.


Voila ... american FRA aproved light rail momuter traffic.




Who knows ... with a 30ton. axle load this beasts can weight as much as 360ton ... 90 ton per car ???
Sorry but structural endurance doesn't work that way since by using heavier material, stress of it own weight completely offsets structural integrity.
By using new material all calculations needs to be redone in which calls for complete new design.
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Old April 28th, 2010, 10:41 AM   #125
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I think he was taking the micky.
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Old April 28th, 2010, 11:55 AM   #126
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Its not all good having light trains. I wouldn't want to be in a UK 142 if it crashed into a 185...the 185 being really quite heavy and the 142 weighing nothing (as a train)
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Old April 28th, 2010, 09:18 PM   #127
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I wouldn't want to be in a 142 if it crashed into a cow. They're crap mistakes that should never have been built.
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Old May 11th, 2010, 11:51 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by Slagathor
The pictures of overhead cables in Switzerland just illustrate that, although you can make this system look less bad, you can never actually make it look good. Kudos to the Swiss for trying, of course. But this appears to be an unsolvable issue (where third rail isn't an option).

It is just Your personal and a bit useless opinion. I love how electrified railways look like. Most of people I know prefer electrical transport too because of acceleration. Do not make your opinion like the only truth.

Swiss railways are amazing and fit in landscape greatly.


I am just flabbergasted at the manner in which he thinks that the cable line going on top of a electric train is pollution ...ooops .. let me use his terminology "horizon pollution" and want to stick to his argument while others have been patient enough to support their argument by posting pics, however, ultimately forgetting the amount of colossal damage "diesel engines" does to the environment in comparison to electric ones.
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Old May 15th, 2010, 05:43 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by SamuraiBlue View Post
Sorry but structural endurance doesn't work that way since by using heavier material, stress of it own weight completely offsets structural integrity.
By using new material all calculations needs to be redone in which calls for complete new design.
What are you talking about ???


It's not about redoing any calculations ... it's all about building from scratch with the needed values in mind.

An electric unit meant to ride on roads (aka tram) needs to be soft enough as to not destroy road traffic and pedestrians ... an electric/diesel unit meant to ride on railways (aka heavy rail) needs to follow the crashwortiness standards apliable to the railways into wich it will run ...


A siemens desiro "looking" can weight as little as 30 tones or as much as 380 tones ... depending on the environment.
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Old May 17th, 2010, 03:07 PM   #130
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I thought the so called diesel trains are all actually diesel-electrics.
This is to overcome the problems with transmission.
With this approach, the diesel engine can be run on the optimal speed most of the time to run the generators.
Thereafter, the electric motors will take over to actually propel the train.
If this is the case, why would there be a huge difference in the acceleration and max speed between diesel and electric trains?
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Old May 17th, 2010, 03:18 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by homunwai View Post
I thought the so called diesel trains are all actually diesel-electrics.
This is to overcome the problems with transmission.
With this approach, the diesel engine can be run on the optimal speed most of the time to run the generators.
Thereafter, the electric motors will take over to actually propel the train.
If this is the case, why would there be a huge difference in the acceleration and max speed between diesel and electric trains?
Short answer, "Weight".
Diesel will always need to carry it's fuel supply with it while electric train's energy is fed through wires.
It may not be that simple but carrying fuel supply along with it is considered dead weight being a disadvantage.
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Old May 17th, 2010, 08:10 PM   #132
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The possible advantage however of that weight is traction, it gets a much better torque and grip on slopes.
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Old May 18th, 2010, 05:06 AM   #133
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The possible advantage however of that weight is traction, it gets a much better torque and grip on slopes.
Grip or rely of torque to rail maybe, the actual amount of torque no since that is completely dependent on the engine not weight.
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Old May 18th, 2010, 10:01 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by K_ View Post
The odd thing is that these trains are considered "light rail" in the US, with all attending complications, whereas in Europe they comply with the current mainline rail TSI safety requirements just fine...
There are some non-FRA compliant light rail vehicles (both electric and diesel) in the US that operate on shared tracks with freight vehicles. This is particularly true where light rail lines are built along freight rail rights of way that still have active customers.

The way they get around the FRA-restrictions are time segregation with half-hour gaps. For example, the light rail line can operate from 05:00 until 23:30, with the freight rail having access from 00:00 until 04:30.
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Old May 18th, 2010, 10:46 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by homunwai View Post
If this is the case, why would there be a huge difference in the acceleration and max speed between diesel and electric trains?
Because electric locos are far more powerful than diesel ones. The most powerful diesel engine installed in a loco is about 4000bhp, but typically 3000-3500bhp. Electric locos can have double that power.

The most powerful diesel in the UK is 3300bhp, the most powerful electric is over 6000bhp, and they weigh exactly the same.
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Old May 21st, 2010, 04:18 AM   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by homunwai View Post
I thought the so called diesel trains are all actually diesel-electrics.
This is to overcome the problems with transmission.
With this approach, the diesel engine can be run on the optimal speed most of the time to run the generators.
Thereafter, the electric motors will take over to actually propel the train.
If this is the case, why would there be a huge difference in the acceleration and max speed between diesel and electric trains?
Most diesel multiple units are indeed diesel-Mechanical (using motors and transmissions like buses/trucks) or diesel-Hidraulic while others also emply diesel-electric transmissions but astonishingly while most locomotives seem to favour diesel-electric in the caseof DMU's it's not that common to see d-e transmissions (at least in europe where Voith turbo hidraulic transmissiosnare in the thousands) ... here are some examples:

BritishRail class 158 (182 built, diesel hidraulic)
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Old May 21st, 2010, 04:26 AM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makita09 View Post
Because electric locos are far more powerful than diesel ones. The most powerful diesel engine installed in a loco is about 4000bhp, but typically 3000-3500bhp. Electric locos can have double that power.

The most powerful diesel in the UK is 3300bhp, the most powerful electric is over 6000bhp, and they weigh exactly the same.
15220bhp here in this picture:


8636bhp in this picture:


offtopic: notice that the pair in the bottom picture has about 50% more traction effort than the pair in the top picture ... this is only due t the european railways prefering to buy bo-bo electric locomotives and adding a pair in Multiple working ... co-co electric locomotives are rarely seen nowadays in europe.
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"O País perdeu a inteligência e a consciência moral. Ninguém se respeita nem crê na honestidade dos homens públicos. O povo está na miséria. Os serviços públicos vão abandonados. A mocidade arrasta-se das mesas das secretarias para as mesas dos cafés. A ruína económica cresce o comércio definha, a indústria enfraquece. O salário diminui. O Estado é considerado um ladrão e tratado como um inimigo.
Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
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Last edited by sotavento; May 21st, 2010 at 04:33 AM.
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Old May 22nd, 2010, 08:15 PM   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuraiBlue View Post
Short answer, "Weight".
Diesel will always need to carry it's fuel supply with it while electric train's energy is fed through wires.
It may not be that simple but carrying fuel supply along with it is considered dead weight being a disadvantage.
The weight of the fuel is of course a penalty, but it is far from being the
most important one. You must realize that by embarking a power plant
on board, a diesel locomotive's installed power is three times the useful
power (if your loco has 3000 hp, you need a diesel of 3000 hp, a generator
of 3000 hp, and then electric motors for 3000 hp). So for the same power,
it is, roughly, 3 times the weight. And as the limit usually is the weight per
axle, the maximum weight that you can embark puts a limit on the power
that you can install. There are other constraints like diesel engine's physical
dimensions, but the first limit that is usually reached is weight. This is why
you still see lots of CC diesels - it can embark 50% more weigth than a BB.
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Old May 22nd, 2010, 08:34 PM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
Most diesel multiple units are indeed diesel-Mechanical (using motors and transmissions like buses/trucks) or diesel-Hidraulic while others also emply diesel-electric transmissions but astonishingly while most locomotives seem to favour diesel-electric in the caseof DMU's it's not that common to see d-e transmissions (at least in europe where Voith turbo hidraulic transmissiosnare in the thousands)
This is absolutely normal. Mechanic transmissions cannot absorb that much
power. Over a few hundred hp it can't hold it. So you see mechanical
transmissions for engines the size of a truck (*), not much more.

Higher power than that you shift to hydraulic transmission, which can absorb
more power but is a bit heavier and more expensive.

And when the power gets into the thousands of hp, then you need to shift
to electrical transmission (**) because the hydraulic transmission won't
be able to do it. US railroads have tried to used hydraulic transmission
locos 50 years ago and they failed mlserably after just a few years of service.

Electric transmission is heavier than hydraulic and also more expensive,
so it won't be used for DMUs where the installed power won't exceed the
capability of hydraulics. And DMUs need to have good acceleration, so
excessive weight is the worst ennemy.

(*) you CAN build mechanical transmissions that can whitstand much more
than the power of a truck. Aircraft carriers, after all, have mechanical
transmissions... But the physical dimensions you are coming to are not
compatible anymore with rail technology.

(**) You can see a diesel-electric loco both ways : either you group the
diesel engine with the generator, and you say that it is an electric loco
with its power plant on-board ; or you group the generator with the electric
motors, which you see as some sort of gearbox, and then you have a diesel
loco with electric transmission...
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Old October 12th, 2012, 02:29 PM   #140
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This thread hasn't been active in 2 years, but because it's about my question, I'll continue here:
To recap: In the US most freight is hauled by diesel loco's. In the US very few lines are electrified. If you need massive power electric is better. You need tractive effort to move a train, you need power to move a train quickly.

When do you need the most tractive effort (and power) to move a train: On inclines.
When do you need the most tractive effort (and power) to brake a train: On declines.
How much tractive effort do you need to move a train on flat country: Not that much compared to inclines, at least once the train is moving.

Solution: Create a dual-mode freight locomotive along the lines of the ALP45 and electrify the steep grades and other spots you need acceleration. You can also use electric only helpers when needed. The rest of the network remains as is.

Advantages: More power on the way up and the brake energy isn't dissipated into heat, but returned to the overhead on the way down. Electrification only there were it makes sense.

Most of the hardware needed is already there because these locomotives are diesel electric in the first place.

Does this line of thinking make sense?
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