High Speed Rail (HS2) - For Newcastle and the North East

[johnnypd]

This thread can be used to discuss HSR plans relating to Newcastle Metro Area - opinions, ideas, news and so on.

To kick us off - Some interesting comments today from the chairman of HS2 regarding Newcastle's place in the High Speed Rail revolution.

High speed chief says Newcastle central to new line

Nov 15 2009 By Matt McKenzie

THE man in charge of the company set up by the Government to examine a high speed rail line says Newcastle would "certainly" be involved in the link.

Sir David Rowlands, chairman of High Speed Two, said his preferred route would be Y-shaped, stretching up either side of the Pennines from Birmingham.

He told BBC One’s Politics Show: ``So (the line) goes up through Manchester to Scotland, but on the east side of the Pennines also goes up through the East Midlands, through Yorkshire and certainly up to Newcastle.

``That is probably the kind of network that we are going to set out for the Government with a description of cost, what the benefits will be and what the environmental impacts will be as well."

Sir David said there was a ``clear business case" to ensure the route ran all the way up to Scotland.

``My own personal view is that if all the Government ever wants to do is to build a high speed line that goes to Birmingham and no further, I wouldn’t bother. It doesn’t make sense."

http://www.sundaysun.co.uk/news/brea...1634-25175616/

Personally I think it is massively important that we are included in these plans - and not just for a London link. However I am unsure about the finer details - Is Central Station and the lines feeding it suitable for HSR or will there need to be a completely new station and line built? If so, where the hell do you put it?

[johnnypd]

Video with Newcastle Council leader John Shipley stating the case for HSR plans for Newcastle: http://www.highspeedrailuk.com/?page_id=34

[edwardsr]

I agree with you Johnny that this it is incredibly important for the NE that HS2 is supporting the Y shape up the east and west coast. I was worried about the network rail suggestion, which seemed to support that the line to Scotland was just on the west. It will be a couple of decades in the planning and construction so I guess a great deal could change. But at least we are firmly in the picture. I am a bit surprised it won't be H shaped with 2 lines coming out of the capital. I have no idea how the line will get into Newcastle. Will it require a new rail bridge over the Tyne? Are there bottlenecks in Central station or in the approach. Is Central station long enough for a 400m platform? Should the station be a parkway, say in Washington or Newcastle airport, or would we need a new city station say at Manors or near the arena. There is a lot to think about...

[johnnypd]

a previous attempt at bringing HSR to the region (from wikipedia):

Virgin Trains' ECML bid

When the ECML franchise (then operated by GNER) came up for its first renewal, Virgin Trains raised the idea of constructing new track and purchasing a new fleet of trains for the line[3]. These so-called VGVs (Virgin Grand Vitesse, after the French TGV) would be capable of 330 kilometres per hour (210 mph) and travel using a mixture of new track and existing track. The new track would be from Peterborough to Yorkshire and on from Newcastle to the Scottish border. This first track would have opened in 2009 and was chosen for ease of construction in the south and elimination of severe curves in Northumberland. Later, if successful, further stretches would have been upgraded. Publicity material featuring Virgin branded TGV and ICE trains appeared and it was stated that the stock would be built in Birmingham (implying Alstom would be the supplier), although at that time the only train capable of such speeds was the German ICE3.

Virgin teamed up with experienced civil engineering contractors such as Bechtel, but their tender was rejected. There were issues with the souring relationship between the Strategic Rail Authority and Virgin Trains' other operations and the possibility of creating a monopoly on Anglo-Scottish routes. Sir Richard Branson said he would give up one of their other franchises if necessary.

Nevertheless, the Virgin bid started people thinking about possibilities and showed that multinational companies were prepared to get involved with privately funded UK high-speed rail projects for the first time.

[Smash17]

I fear a lot that Newcastle will be left out of the proposals for a High Speed rail line. I can see the government doing it first to Birmingham, then extend it to Manchester and then up to Scotland which would leave Newcastle high and dry.

I believe there's already quite a bit of congestion around Central Station to the south of the city so that could be a problem but I'd hope they'd utilise the existing station because any new build will inevitably be further away from the centre of the city.

I'm very much a fan of the proposal which would see a snaked line across the country taking in Birmingham, up to Manchester/Liverpool then across the pennines through Leeds and Sheffield before heading up to Teesside and Newcastle before going on to Scotland. Not ideal but much better than leaving out half the country IMO.

[johnnypd]

Originally Posted by edwardsr

I agree with you Johnny that this it is incredibly important for the NE that HS2 is supporting the Y shape up the east and west coast. I was worried about the network rail suggestion, which seemed to support that the line to Scotland was just on the west. It will be a couple of decades in the planning and construction so I guess a great deal could change. But at least we are firmly in the picture. I am a bit surprised it won't be H shaped with 2 lines coming out of the capital. I have no idea how the line will get into Newcastle. Will it require a new rail bridge over the Tyne? Are there bottlenecks in Central station or in the approach. Is Central station long enough for a 400m platform? Should the station be a parkway, say in Washington or Newcastle airport, or would we need a new city station say at Manors or near the arena. There is a lot to think about...

one problem i can see is needing to widen tracks to a continental loading gauge, can we do that to the existing infrastructure or will we need a few new routes, stations and bridges?

[Smash17]

Taken from the UK High Speed Rail thread:

Originally Posted by Jon10

Direct rail links to be opened between London and Amsterdam, Gordon Brown announces

By Rosa Prince, Political Correspondent, Daily Telegraph
Published: 12:34PM GMT 23 Nov 2009


Gordon Brown, the Prime Minister, has announced plans for direct rail links to be opened between London and other European cities including Amsterdam.

Speaking at the Confederation of British Industry annual conference, Mr Brown also revealed that a new company would be created to deliver high speed rail links between the north and south, cutting the journey time from London to Scotland to just three hours.

The Channel Tunnel rail firm would be commissioned to lay on new routes beyond Paris, Brussels and Lille, with the German city of Cologne and the Dutch cultural capital among those due to be linked to London under plans to be set out within weeks.

The Prime Minister added that the Capital would not be the only starting point for journeys to Europe, with new high speed links beyond Birmingham allowing the whole of the United Kingdom to be put at the "heart" of the continent, rather than the "fringes".

He told delegates:

"We will see a major announcement on these things."

Mr Brown hinted that Newcastle would be among a number of northern cities which would receive faster connections to the south, adding that the new lines would be designed to carry higher levels of freight as well as increased passenger numbers.

Mr Brown added:

"Let me tell you what we could ultimately achieve: a European network of train service that takes us quickly not just to Paris and Brussels but quickly to Cologne and Amsterdam;

"And one that starts not just in London but in the north of our country.

"So from journey times today from Scotland to London of four hours 20 minutes, to three and a half hours, then three hours, and potentially even under three hours.

"Of fast rail travel not only within Britain but to and from the mainland of Europe - things within our grasp."

Speaking at the same conference, in central London's Park Lane Hilton Hotel, David Cameron, the Conservative leader, said that his party had outlined a commitment to roll out high speed rail before the Government.

He described the policy as:

"a pledge that has become so attractive that it was repeated by the Prime Minister this morning, I'm pleased to see."

[bigchrisfgb]

We need HSR, it's no good having planes to and from Gatwick that can take upto and over 2 hours.

I speak from exprience, form today, and thats not counting all the time it takes to check in etc.

[maxtoon]

Originally Posted by bigchrisfgb

We need HSR, it's no good having planes to and from Gatwick that can take upto and over 2 hours.

I speak from exprience, form today, and thats not counting all the time it takes to check in etc.

and to get from Gatwick to the City (as the business sector will be heavy HSR users) ... add another hour

[bigchrisfgb]

Originally Posted by maxtoon

and to get from Gatwick to the City (as the business sector will be heavy HSR users) ... add another hour

Try 4 and a half, thats how long it took me to get from Kings cross to Gatwick when I left here.

[TownPlanningNE]

Chris, I know in the BBC Newcastle thread you've mentioned HSR, I just wondered if you think that Newcastle will get included on such plans? Also how long do you think it would take before we see a full HSR network in the UK?

I sadly have no faith at all in any of the parties delivering such a system, we seem so far behind Europe, sad considering the railway was born here

[Newcastle Historian]

High-speed rail link will start in the North says Gordon Brown
Nov 24 2009 by William Green, The Journal

A NEW high-speed rail link will start in the North and link the country to Europe, the Prime Minister yesterday declared.



But Gordon Brown left everyone guessing about the exact start point of the new North-South connection when he addressed business chiefs at the CBI conference. His comments come as a company set up by the Government to advise it on high speed rail will make its recommendations next month to Transport Secretary Lord Adonis about where the route should go.

Addressing the CBI, the Prime Minister yesterday said: “Let me tell you what we could ultimately achieve – a European network of train services that takes us quickly not just to Paris and Brussels but quickly to Cologne and to Amsterdam. “And one that starts not just in London but in the North of our country. “So from journey times today from Scotland to London of four hours 20 minutes, to three and a half hours, then three hours, and potentially even to under three hours.

“So, faster rail travel – not only within Britain, but to and from the mainland of Europe – is within our grasp,” said Mr Brown.

The developments came as Conservative leader David Cameron yesterday signalled he could not answer the region’s “wish list” of transport upgrades if elected Prime Minister. Addressing the CBI conference, he said: “I cannot give you the wish list of every piece of infrastructure spending and every tax reduction you would like because – to put it frankly – the Government has run out of money.

“Instead, I am offering the agenda that I think you know and I know this country really needs.”

Mr Cameron’s comments come after he previously said plans to upgrade the A1 Western Bypass around Newcastle and Gateshead as well as the A1 north of Newcastle had a “good chance” of being taken forward. But he told the CBI conference that a Tory Government would build a high-speed rail link between London and Leeds, taking in Birmingham and Manchester.

Sir David Rowlands, chairman of High Speed Two – the company set up by the Government – has said that Newcastle should “certainly” be connected to a future network. His preferred route would be Y-shaped, stretching up either side of the Pennines from Birmingham.

Sir David said there was a “clear business case” to ensure the route ran all the way up from London to Scotland when he spoke to the BBC earlier this month. “My own personal view is that if all the Government ever wants to do is to build a high speed line that goes to Birmingham and no further, I wouldn’t bother. It doesn’t make sense,” he added.

But Network Rail has recommended a route up the west coast of the country, bypassing the North East.

[bigchrisfgb]

Originally Posted by TownPlanningNE

Chris, I know in the BBC Newcastle thread you've mentioned HSR, I just wondered if you think that Newcastle will get included on such plans? Also how long do you think it would take before we see a full HSR network in the UK?

I sadly have no faith at all in any of the parties delivering such a system, we seem so far behind Europe, sad considering the railway was born here

For one I have no faith in what Gordon Brown has said, even though he didn't actually say it it, he hinted it, and never mentioned Newcastle, mearly said Northern Cities, which to him could mean Manchester and Liverpool which are already apart of the plans that go via the west.

I myself am a huge fan of Maglev, and see that as a way forward other then HSR, but it looks as though noone else agrees.

Newcastle has done alot of work on the HSR and Malev plans, along with Scotland, and Manchester, and I have do doubt about how they are trying to correct the wrongs, that the governement has made by excluding Newcatle, however again I have no faith in the Government to listen and use common sense.

I wouldn't hold our breath for HSR, but I do think that eventually it will come to Newcastle, but as for a timescale, I have no idea. It all depends on weather this or or next government will wake up to the fact that they have to do it, and they have to invest the however many £b's it will cost (though it will only be a fraction of the price more then London Crossrail) regardless or not if the country is bust, they have to get this money, otherwise this country will never make a full recovery, and it will never be as rich and productive as it can be.

[Newcastle Historian]

Originally Posted by bigchrisfgb

For one I have no faith in what Gordon Brown has said, even though he didn't actually say it it, he hinted it, and never mentioned Newcastle, mearly said Northern Cities, which to him could mean Manchester and Liverpool which are already apart of the plans that go via the west.

I myself am a huge fan of Maglev, and see that as a way forward other then HSR, but it looks as though noone else agrees.

Newcastle has done alot of work on the HSR and Malev plans, along with Scotland, and Manchester, and I have do doubt about how they are trying to correct the wrongs, that the governement has made by excluding Newcatle, however again I have no faith in the Government to listen and use common sense.

I wouldn't hold our breath for HSR, but I do think that eventually it will come to Newcastle, but as for a timescale, I have no idea. It all depends on weather this or or next government will wake up to the fact that they have to do it, and they have to invest the however many £b's it will cost (though it will only be a fraction of the price more then London Crossrail) regardless or not if the country is bust, they have to get this money, otherwise this country will never make a full recovery, and it will never be as rich and productive as it can be.

I agree with this ENTIRELY!

Also, Maglev would be fantastic, wouldn't it?

We can but hope!

[Newcastle Historian]

Northern Way calls for comprehensive High Speed Rail Network to drive economic growth
16th September 2009


The Northern Way is today calling on Government to implement a comprehensive High Speed Rail network to drive economic growth in the northern regions.

In the report "Transforming our Economy and our Connectivity: High Speed Rail for the North," the Northern Way sets out its recommendations for a high speed rail network for Britain that serves the City Regions of the North. This includes better utilising existing main lines before new high speed lines can be built.

Speaking at the launch of Greengauge21's "Fast Forward" report on high speed rail, which is also published today, Professor David Begg, Chairman of the Northern Way Transport Compact said:

"We need a 30 year rail strategy and high speed rail is a critical part of it. What's the alternative? There is evidence after evidence that we will run out of capacity. We would be the laughing stock of Europe and the world if we were to plan to design a railway for the 21st century to run at 200kph rather than 400kph. But it's not just about capacity. A two-line north-south high speed network serving the North's City Regions on both the east and west sides of the Pennines and linking London with Scotland can help transform our international competitiveness, lead to a more equitable spread of wealth across the country as a whole and contribute to carbon reduction as well.

"The benefits to the North's economy come about not just from better links to London, Heathrow and Europe through the Channel Tunnel, but importantly also by faster links between the North's city regions."

The report finds that a well planned network will bring significant benefits to the North and the nation, and help bridge the North-South economic divide. To secure this benefit and prevent distorting business decisions it will require careful phasing, and complementary investment in other lines. Evidence to date, endorsed by the Northern Way, suggests a line from London to Manchester should be the first stage, with the major east coast cities also firmly on the high speed map - with a second line developed in parallel east of the Pennines. And the report advocates investment in existing lines, including the Trans-Pennine, Midland and East Coast Main Lines, to pave the way for a comprehensive high speed network in the longer term.

Chairman of the Northern Way Hugh Morgan Williams said:

"International experience suggests a high speed rail network will take 20 to 30 years to complete. France started in the 1980s and is accelerating the delivery of new lines over the next few years. Spain will overtake both France and Japan and have the biggest high speed network anywhere in the world very soon.

"A British network will need to be phased, as the development of high speed networks has been abroad.

"Looking at all the evidence, including the new evidence that Greengauge21 has published today, the Northern Way recognises that a high speed line on the west side of the country from London to Manchester and linking in Heathrow and the Channel Tunnel is a compelling next phase for the implementation of a high speed rail network in Britain. But we are also very clear a second north-south high speed line serving the North's city regions east of the Pennines must be developed in parallel or otherwise be started before a line to Manchester is completed."

Professor David Begg added:

"High speed rail can only be delivered in the long term and we have to start planning now to make it happen.

"But high speed rail also has to be set in the context of a wider long term rail strategy.

Before any new high speed line can be built, we also need to see trans-Pennine links speeded up by electrification of the gap in the network between York and Manchester benefitting journey times all the way from Liverpool to Newcastle, as well as progressive plans for the existing East Coast Main and Midland Main Lines tied into the delivery of high speed rail on the east side of the country."

http://www.thenorthernway.co.uk/news.asp?id=757

[Newcastle Historian]

MAGLEV

This LINK, which I got from Section 15 of our "WEBSITES" thread, is very interesting . . .

http://www.500kmh.com/projectinfo.html



Also . .

http://www.railway-technology.com/features/feature1606/

and a 'Skyscrapercity' LINK . .

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=544600





.

[Chatton11]

The sensible option for the futue is the H shaped plan, where there are east and west coast lines, and a trans-pennine route, not dissimlar to the existing rail network. (actually, thinking about it, it's more of an upside down A!) Obviously, anyone who takes this one will be looking at delivering a phased approach, so why not take on one of the other options suggested as a halfway stage. IE, a backwards S shape, where the HSR line runs up through birmingham and manchester, then cuts across the pennines through Leeds and York, then up the east coast, to Newcastle, Edinburgh and Glasgow. That way, the HSR lines cover a large portion of the country at the halfway point, and the remaining additions to both of the east and west coast lines could follow on. This ppicks up most of the major cities, missing out on Cumbria, and east midlands locations such as Nottingham, Sheffield etc, however these are already not on the normal rail main line. Are there specific routes proposed by all the different people putting plans together? ie, which cities are various people intending the HSR plan to reach?

[Tyne]

This hand drawn map was drawn by Lord Adonis recently when asked for his preferred route for HSR in the UK.

[Talisker]

The maglev option was rejected in 2007 high speed white paper though wasn't it? Actually, I was just reading about low speed maglev systems which could be an interesting if highly unlikley option for the t+w metro, as running and maintainence costs are supposedly low.

[Newcastle Historian]

Originally Posted by Tyne

This hand drawn map was drawn by Lord Adonis recently when asked for his preferred route for HSR in the UK.

GL = Greater London
WM = West Midlands
GM = Greater Manchester
LB = Leeds/Bradford
G = Glasgow
E = Edinburgh
NW = ??