High Speed Rail (HS2) - For Newcastle and the North East

[Chatton11]

Also, showing how much these people care about the region, I wonder if anyone can tell me where Teeside is? Presumably by the side of the river Tee? I know it's a common mistake, but you don't see them ever spelling it Lodon.

[bigchrisfgb]

Ok, Preston doesn't need an interchange with it being so close to Manchester and Liverpool, I would scrap that line going to Glasgow, along with lines in South Yorkshire, and make the end of the line from Newcastle (not that it will ever be built) go all the way up to Edinburgh. Saving needless costs on constructing a line that is in reality all ready well connected with it being so close to Manchester and so to is South Yorkshire as it's fairly well connected to to leeds, the ame applies to the east midlands where it is fairly connected to the east midlands.

[Chatton11]

Tbh I don't mind the y-shaped plan, though I would have thought it a no brainer to just finish the loop to Edinburgh. My biggest beef with it is that it isn't (as is claimed at various points in the publications and press) a national approach to HSR. In fact, it's sorting out the south of England, and then a vague statement that they should expand north somewhere, someway at some point. Why not develop a proper national strategy and route, serving everytwhere you want to, then look at the phased development of it. I would feel a lot happier if the route to Newcastle, and propositions for stations etc had all been laid out (and signed up to), and it was only the phasing and the specific funding for the project that was up in the air. I wish someone would just dump a few billion pounds on my lap, then I'd just build my own Northern HS network in a loop through Newcastle, Leeds, Manchester, up the west coast to Glasgow, Edibburgh and back to Newcastle.....

[bigchrisfgb]

Originally Posted by Chatton11

Tbh I don't mind the y-shaped plan, though I would have thought it a no brainer to just finish the loop to Edinburgh. My biggest beef with it is that it isn't (as is claimed at various points in the publications and press) a national approach to HSR. In fact, it's sorting out the south of England, and then a vague statement that they should expand north somewhere, someway at some point. Why not develop a proper national strategy and route, serving everytwhere you want to, then look at the phased development of it. I would feel a lot happier if the route to Newcastle, and propositions for stations etc had all been laid out (and signed up to), and it was only the phasing and the specific funding for the project that was up in the air. I wish someone would just dump a few billion pounds on my lap, then I'd just build my own Northern HS network in a loop through Newcastle, Leeds, Manchester, up the west coast to Glasgow, Edibburgh and back to Newcastle.....

Yes that would be great way to start HSR in the UK, no doubt Lodon then would get greedy and insist on being linked into the network aswell.

[Chatton11]

I've just been having a longer look through the full Government White Paper, and maybe I was a little harsh at first. One good thing is, as I understand it, from the start, there will be High Speed trains running from Newcastle, running at normal speeds on the existing track, and then High Speeds on the full track. When the HSR is upto Leeds, that will mean about a half hour reduced journey time to London. When the thing is eventually extended to Newcastle, that will be an hour reduction, to 2 hours. Not bad really, though I do wonder how all of this will affect congestion on the ECML. Also, by then I plan to have a hover car and a teleporter.

[WilfBurnsFan]

I know it's only an outline map but even so... the idea of going from London to Liverpool via Manchester? Surely you'd be just as quick going on today's fastest services direct, peeling off the WCML at Crewe, via Runcorn.

[WilfBurnsFan]

Anyway, I fully intend to celebrate my 100th birthday with a trip on the recently-opened HS line.

[bigchrisfgb]

Originally Posted by WilfBurnsFan

Anyway, I fully intend to celebrate my 100th birthday with a trip on the recently-opened HS line.

Pfft, you will be lucky.

[johnnypd]

Originally Posted by Chatton11

Tbh I don't mind the y-shaped plan, though I would have thought it a no brainer to just finish the loop to Edinburgh. My biggest beef with it is that it isn't (as is claimed at various points in the publications and press) a national approach to HSR. In fact, it's sorting out the south of England, and then a vague statement that they should expand north somewhere, someway at some point. Why not develop a proper national strategy and route, serving everytwhere you want to, then look at the phased development of it. I would feel a lot happier if the route to Newcastle, and propositions for stations etc had all been laid out (and signed up to), and it was only the phasing and the specific funding for the project that was up in the air. I wish someone would just dump a few billion pounds on my lap, then I'd just build my own Northern HS network in a loop through Newcastle, Leeds, Manchester, up the west coast to Glasgow, Edibburgh and back to Newcastle.....

one thing that is telling is that when the papers report the HSR Story they always write things like "leeds will be reached in 2 hours, birmingham in half an hour." reached? from where, exactly? it's taken as a given that journey times are from/to london, as if connectivity between other cities wasnt an issuse.

[TownPlanningNE]

I find the timescale completely laughable. I wonder what the countries who have had high speed rail for years already will have by the time we complete our high speed rail... a complete farce if you ask me

[NewcastleStu]

Originally Posted by Chatton11

Also, by then I plan to have a hover car and a teleporter.

Exactly, work is only going to be starting in 2017, god only knows when it'll actually be finished. I'll take a teleporter instead

[Geordie Ahmed]

Its really embarassing seeing where we are in relation to HSR (im referring to the UK) when you consider the rail heritage of this country - embarassing

[Smash17]

A load of old rubbish, as has rightly been pointed out. Sadly I think it's what we all expected.

[AngerOfTheNorth]

Originally Posted by WilfBurnsFan

Anyway, I fully intend to celebrate my 100th birthday with a trip on the recently-opened HS line.

Don't be soft, they're never going to get it built within the next ten years!

[DXNewcastle]

There's two significant factors which this announcement seems to overlook - I guess that's not because the DfT don't understand them, but because this had to be "an announcement".

First - our rail network has to simultaneously accommodate 3 modes of transport :-
a) high-speed long-distance passenger services at a regular frequency, with peak periods,
b) local stopping passenger services at lower speeds and regular frequencies, but with different peak periods, and
c) freight and departmental traffic at lower speeds, less regular frequencies and at non-critical times.
This proposal doesn't say so, but its only addressing the first of these - passenger services, leaving the existing network to handle the others, which is reasonable. It also stops at Litchfield, which is one end of the element of the WCML upgrade that really was sucessfull - the quadrupling of the Trent Valley line. So it just completes the job that the 140mph WCML upgrade failed to deliver.
But is this proposal really delivering benefits across all three modes? Benfits that are nation-wide?

Second, the cost - benefit analysis is highly dependent on geographic factors (for any given investment, we could either construct a small length of new rail in an urban area with an anticipated high level of passenger useage, or a longer length of new rail in a rural area but lower level of passenger useage).
I argue that there are several stretches of existing infrastructure which could be replaced at a similar cost to the new high speed tunnel under Primrose Hill and Abbey Road which would actually benefit a) more long distance pasengers, b) more local passengers, and c) more freight.
Quick examples are: Bristol - Exeter, Leicester - Peterborough - Cambridge - Norwich, Edinburgh - Stirling - Perth and Glasgow - Stirling, Hull - Leeds - Manchester - Liverpool, Exeter - Tavistock - Plymouth and others, not forgetting our own Darlington - Morpeth and Berwick - Edinburgh. We really could see massive improvements to long-distance, local & suburban and freight services if we provided the high capacity infrastructure in those areas. Similary improvements from more localised improvements such as Moy - Inverness - Dingwall - Golspie in the Highlands, linking Glasgow Queen St and Central, linking Aberystwyth effectively to North, South and West and some effective east - west links across the Pennines These will benefit millions of travellers and freight operators, and provide real alternatives to road and air travel, at much much lower costs per mile of a new high speed tunnel through north London suburbs.

And does anyone else agree with me that one aspect of the current network that works well as it is, is the last few miles in and out of London?
The overall benfits accrue from investing in longer stretches of route that accomodate all three modes where there is a potential demand rather than short stretches in and around London.

And while were planning, could we also get on with providing economically attractive and well placed freight terminals and crossovers/unders rather than the antiquated points that hold everything up when trains diverge, and other upgrades which increase the capacity of the infrastructure we have already, a highly stressed network?

[Chatton11]

And I'm out of my depth! I'll have to take your word for all that DX, I couldn't tell you which bits of track are fast or in good condition or what, all I know is when I get a train (about twice a year to go to London), I get on at one point, and get off in London about 3 hours later!

[Newcastle Historian]

.
Everything is ALL RIGHT then . . nothing for US to worry about ( SILLY US ) . . .

Lord Adonis assures North will get high-speed trains
Mar 12 2010 by William Green, The Journal



LORD Adonis was last night told he will be held to his "multi-billion pound promise" after appearing to snub the region’s high-speed rail hopes.

The transport secretary gave Labour’s backing to a new 335-mile network slashing journey times, which experts say is critical to boosting businesses.

Construction of the first London-Birmingham section would start in 2017, before the £30 billion network is extended on to Manchester and Leeds.

For Newcastle and Scotland the transport secretary could only offer the prospect of high-speed trains running on conventional East Coast Main Line tracks, as revealed in The Journal earlier this month. He has promised trains will eventually run on new tracks through the region, but would not commit to a start date.

The "tracks not trains" approach will see the 250mph fleet forced to travel at around 100mph once past Leeds.

But with journey times coming down by more than 30 minutes, Lord Adonis insisted the route would bring real benefits to the region.

He told The Journal: "It is very important to me that the North East does not miss out. Absolutely so. That is why I gave the firm assurances that there will be, from day one, direct services to Newcastle."

Lord Adonis was "confident that the high speed line will come to the North East" but said he chose to copy the French model of ensuring high-speed trains travel to the region while tracks are built in order to share the benefits.

"Our immediate priority is to bring the line as we build out to make sure we do not stall economic growth."

Transport officials say this approach helps tackle the immediate problems facing planners, such as the cost of building over the Rivers Wear and Tyne. But last night there were worries that extra trains running on the East Coast Main Line would see the region pay, through taxes, for a service that only adds to rail congestion north of Leeds.

There were also concerns the time benefits of the trains not tracks approach could have been achieved just by investing in the East Coast Main Line.

Many, though, have welcomed the commitment to bring trains now and a firm promise from Adonis that tracks will eventually make it to Tyneside and Scotland.

Newcastle Council leader John Shipley said: "It is good news that we have not been left out. I’m disappointed that we have not been fully integrated with the new system. "It’s good to have rolling stock but we won’t have tracks, leaving us with trains running at conventional speeds. Our objective remains to get investment in these tracks".

Full high speed rail services, Mr Shipley added, would be worth billions of pounds to the Northern economy.

Rail expert Prof David Begg has already told the Government it could add £10billion to the economy if it built high-speed links, with the lines adding £3.5 billon to the North East alone.

"If we don’t get this investment we will fall behind," Mr Shipley said.

For that reason both businesses and politicians in the region have urged the Department for Transport to, at the very least, increase investment in the
current East Coast routes.

Lord Adonis said: "We fully intend to keep investing in the East Cast Main Line. It is critical to the North East and to the rest of the country."

The Government’s autumn consultation on the extension of the line will give regional leaders the chance to secure further concessions.

Alan Clarke, chief executive at development agency One North East, said that while the train promise was welcome, the Government had to ensure its phasing of tracks does "not lead to areas of economic disadvantage".

He added: "The development of a High Speed rail network is a medium to long term aspiration, and it is important that investment in new rolling stock and the classic rail network - in particular the East Coast mainline - is maintained to ensure the North East can continue to enjoy good and competitive links to London and the rest of the country.

"One North East will begin to prepare a detailed regional response to the Government’s planned formal consultation in the autumn."

Regional Minister Nick Brown said the North East would benefit as the network was built in phases over three decades. He said: "The opportunities for us are substantial, not just to do with north-south connectivity but east-west connectivity."

Dave Anderson, Labour MP for Blaydon, said: "They should go back to the drawing board and realise that if they don’t get this sorted, it is going to make us even less likely to compete." Shadow Transport Secretary Theresa Villiers accused Labour of robbing the North, Scotland and Wales of "massive" social, economic and regeneration benefits.

If elected, the Tories have vowed to build a line from London to Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds from 2015.

She added: "As George Osborne said last year, the Conservatives are committed to taking our high speed rail line from Leeds north to the North East and Scotland as the second stage."

Passengers face rises in air and rail fares

PASSENGERS face higher train and airline fares to pay for the new £30bn high-speed rail network.

A levy on tickets on existing and new high-speed routes has been forward by experts, who say a 1% charge could provide up to £75m a year.

A controversial tax on flying could also be used to pay for the new train network, with Transport Secretary Lord Adonis only committing at this stage to it going from London to the Midlands and onto Manchester and Leeds.

Air passenger duty has also been suggested as a way of raising money by HS2, the company set up by Government to examine high-speed rail options.

Other options include a top-up on council tax bills in the West Midlands and Greater London, councils providing money, as well as accessing cash from the Europe Union. Lord Adonis said they were options that had been put forward but stressed they were not Government policy.

He also rejected a proposal that private companies could sponsor the new line or stations or even get “naming rights” in return for helping pay for the proposals.

In its report to Lord Adonis, the HS2 company said: “It is impossible to reach detailed conclusions at such an early stage of the development of the project and, given the uncertainties as to how non-Government funding contributions might be secured, for example, the political support required for a train fare levy.

“We are, however, clear that they will amount to only a small contribution towards the overall cost of HS2, up to a maximum of about £1bn. And it may be very much less.”

Fares rises will amount to only a small contribution towards the overall cost of HS2

[Chatton11]

I hate it when they say things like 'journey times coming down by more than 30 minutes'. Yeah, 32 minutes, but in reality, that's going to fluctuate, and it's all just approximate at the moment, so why not just say 30 minutes.

[Andym]

this is pre-election bombast. it wont happen in the next twenty five years.there is no evidence from the past twenty years of government that either party will invest in vital infrastructure outside of london.

[Smash17]

Originally Posted by The Journal

He has promised trains will eventually run on new tracks through the region, but would not commit to a start date.

Tells you everything you need to know.