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Old November 20th, 2009, 05:08 PM   #81
Falubaz
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Some more:

[IMG]http://i45.************/20sulxs.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i48.************/ou8wtd.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i45.************/72f7v9.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i48.************/14lmu69.jpg[/IMG]
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Old November 20th, 2009, 06:16 PM   #82
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Hey, thanks for the nice pictures. Do you by any chance have more photos of the 15T?
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Old November 21st, 2009, 11:31 AM   #83
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Quote:
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Hey, thanks for the nice pictures. Do you by any chance have more photos of the 15T?












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Old January 1st, 2010, 06:32 PM   #84
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Old January 1st, 2010, 08:05 PM   #85
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This 15T is a strange looking tram. It's for sure designed to be also a LRT and a double ended car, but still I don't know why Skoda couldn't design a more "classical" model. Are there available some photos of the interior, because I would like to compare the wideness of the passage near bogeys. About the look again due to cars construction it must be quite unique, but still a horizontal shape of lamps and very high front window isn't a state of the art idea.
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Old January 1st, 2010, 09:37 PM   #86
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There are interiors pics of 15t posted earlier in this thread.
I'm sure it's just tram, no LRT. I don't know about it's design, I've seen better looking trams for sure. However it's not the most important feature of the tram.

Last edited by פובליק פיינט; January 1st, 2010 at 09:43 PM.
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Old January 2nd, 2010, 01:28 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Filip7370 View Post
This 15T is a strange looking tram. It's for sure designed to be also a LRT and a double ended car, but still I don't know why Skoda couldn't design a more "classical" model. Are there available some photos of the interior, because I would like to compare the wideness of the passage near bogeys. About the look again due to cars construction it must be quite unique, but still a horizontal shape of lamps and very high front window isn't a state of the art idea.
You will find plenty of visuals on the 15T if you trawl through the Tramways thread on the Czech SCF forum:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=621329

The style design is by Czech transport architect Patrick Kotas and is designed for the Prague setting (although the same design has been ordered for Riga). Like all modern trams it is modular and I'm sure if another city wanted their version they can have different nose sections (like Alstom does with the Citadis).

It is actually capable of being a "light rail" vehicle also having a maximum speed, I understand, of 80-100 kph. But the point is, it is also the world's first decent 100% low floor street tram because it has properly pivoting bogies and bogies that do not interfere with the passenger space. It will properly perform both the street transit and "light rail" (high speed reservation) functions of a modern tram. The products of Bombardier, Alstom and Siemens etc are basically "light rail" vehicles designed for new systems and are not very good on legacy street systems where there are lots of tight turns and similar hard stuff to negotiate. It really represents the next generation tram and makes all existing trams obsolete.

Filip7370 from my memory the passage through the articulations is 700 mm, enough for a pram or wheelchair to pass through. In trams with the bogie boxes in the passenger cabins (Bombardier, Alstom etc) where the tram is only 2450 wide there is often not enough width to get a pram through. All of these problems have been thought of in 15T. There is also less space wasted on articulations compared to a five-section tram which has 4 articulations. This one has two - a longer passageway but in total less space wasted on articulations than a 5 section tram.

The only problem is most of "western" market doesn't understand how clever the Czechs are with trams so I don't expect 15T will make huge marketing inroads on the big companies Bombardier etc which is a pity because all those markets will be buying obsolete trams. In the traditional Czech market of eastern Europe the 15T should be more appreciated though (and ironically it may also be cheaper than the "western" trams). A crazy world!
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Old January 2nd, 2010, 02:57 AM   #88
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(although the same design has been ordered for Riga).
I believe Riga will get another design than Prague, it should looks something like this:


True is 15T is sort of revolution since you have bogies with pivots placed in articulation between sections.


But you can hardly say bogies don't interfere with passenger space, because they pretty much do, only at different place as usual (bogie and articulation is at the same place so you spare some space there). I doubt you can pass through this articulation with wheelchair...


However with comparable trams in lenght and capacity (35m, 300 pax) it has one bogie more, which means lesser load on axle and that's good for track (in Prague they have bad experience with three bogie low floor trams because of the axle load). Morover the Prague one have 16 engines on each axle and total drive power 720 kW, which is good for hilly terrain.
I agree this one won't be huge market hit abroad, it is revolutionary but who cares, those Citadis or Combinos work too .

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Old January 2nd, 2010, 04:05 AM   #89
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I think in Sydney and Melbourne we care very much because those fixed bogie trams are hell on street systems! Bad ride, track and wheel wear (=maintenance cost) and slowness, thus reducing average speeds and increasing journey time. Bad news.

Riga design is only subtly different, that's what I mean.

Passageway in 15T will take a wheelchair, just, but certainly a baby pram. The bogie boxes in 15T are at the end of the compartments, not right in the middle like Combinos, Citadis, Bombardier etc. This means you have a clear open space in the passenger compartment to give you flexibility for seating arrangement. In Melbourne the problem with Combinos meant they had to remove the seats on the bogie boxes, so now the bogie boxes take up floor space where you can neither have seats nor stand. A disaster. Like I said, now old generation design. A tram lasts 30-40 years. Why would you buy technology that is already superseded when you are stuck with it for this long? But plenty of "western" cities do!
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Old January 2nd, 2010, 05:58 AM   #90
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If you compare 15T with ULF, ULF has much more space at articulation (in both 15T and ULM articulation and the bogie is at the same place).

Well ULF is another chapter, each bogie has only one axel and length of articles is lesser (and thus it has ultra low floor). I would say that's the real solution for 21st century. Unfortunately it's still costly. Moreover, Prague tracks are in worse shape than in Vienna, and Prague is more hilly too.
If they somehow enlarge the width inside the articles in 15T to the same level as in ULF, it would be unbeatable in regards of inner space (and still cheap).
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Old January 2nd, 2010, 06:30 AM   #91
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I found ULF has too many divisions that break up the interior space too much. 15T is more spacious inside and more clear floorspace than any other low floor tram. 15T is also better riding than ULF, probably because of its normal bogies. And ULF is too mechanically complex which I think would increase maintenance costs. I think ULF was a good innovation but 15T is the next step ahead.

Are you sure passage through articulation in ULF is wider? I would say they are about the same. I think 700 mm in a standard gauge 15T. Riga version might be wider.
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Old January 2nd, 2010, 01:28 PM   #92
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ULF has more divisions but it's pax capacity for 35m version is broadly the same as 15T. I've read ULF maintenance is easy and cheap and they are reliable - Siemens. However 15T is much cheaper. Still, ULF has 18 cm floor, 15T 35/45cm (over bogies). But for Prague with hundreds of T3s any low floor is great, I can't remember how many times I've helped mothers with prams to enter or leave the tram...

To me passage through articulation in ULF seems wider but I don't have exact numbers. What is for sure, articulation in 15T is longer (due to bogie) nad seems less comfortable to pass than in ULF. And then there's +10cm floor over the bogie too.

ULF is simply real 100% low floor, no doubt.

I'll wait till I take a ride in the thing and let you know how is the inner space then. Guys in Riga will have they experience too

edit: I've just found width of articulation is 700mm, source: http://www.sdp-cr.cz/skup/OSTRAM/pre...0080515SDP.pdf

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Old January 2nd, 2010, 01:57 PM   #93
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But only two articulations in 15T compared to 4 in five-section low-floors and 6 in ULF. It makes a difference - a spacious uncluttered interior compared with one that is frequently broken up. I've ridden in both ULF and 15T and 15T is much better, like a high floor tram except that it is low floor - smooth ride, corners quickly. The 10 cm rise in floor through articulations is imperceptable when you're walking through the tram.

I won't criticise ULF because it was a clever concept and is a good tram but the 15T is a clear step ahead. The only advantage ULF has is that its floor is closer to the road and matches the 150 mm kerb height of typical European tram stops. However in many countries (like Australia) tram stop platforms are being built to 300 mm anyway to serve most modern low floor trams. So 300-350 mm is becoming a standardised platform height and trams do not need to be lower than this.

I will be interested to hear your opinion after you travel on 15T. What country are you from? Cheers
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Old January 2nd, 2010, 02:31 PM   #94
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Well that's cool you have ridden both ULF and 15T, am I ask you how you get into 15T? Are you some insider? (I know your father-in-law has something to do with trams in Czech Rep but still... .

I live in Prague and I haven't seen it live yet which is not so wonder. I think it will last some year till they give it to service some my thoughts about this tram are solely theoretical.
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Old January 2nd, 2010, 02:53 PM   #95
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LOL I won't give away my secrets! But not really insider, and certainly not father-in-law (who was not in trams but was a designer of Line A of Prague Metro but now no longer alive).

I'm surprised you haven't seen it in the street considering all the photos in SCF! I will be interested to see when the public can finally board it in Prague. It is certainly taking a long time. I am now in Sydney so I won't have a chance to try it in public service until next time I come to CZ. So you guys on SCF will be my eyes and ears!
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Old January 2nd, 2010, 11:53 PM   #96
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70 cm between "wheels" is a quite good result. I just don't understand why near the articulation the are only so narrow seats. Well, from the mechanical part isn't a "something big", that's not a disadvantage because You can't discover a wheel again. For me it is a good rival for Solaris Tramlino. Both companies have not many (Skoda of course has more) experience in building this type of trams. I agree that "west" always underestimate "eastern" manufacturers. Look on Pesa trams.
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Old January 3rd, 2010, 01:03 AM   #97
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Tramino and 15T can hardly compete, since they have different constructions:
Tramino
.
15T


Main difference is 15T has 4 bogies and Tramino 3 bogies, while 15T has 3 articles, while Tramino 5 articles (whom three are with bogies and carry two articles between). It's completely different concept, Tramino is classical 100% low floor tram with three fixed bogies (same as PESA for example), 15T is first 100% low floor with rotary bogies. This is advantage for tracks with many small curves like Prague has.

Another difference 15T have 45kW engine on each wheel so total power is 16 x 45 = 720 kW, Tramino has 4 x 105 kW = 420 kW (only two bogies have engine). In Prague they need more power because of hilly tracks.

Last but not least, 15T have 100% adhesion, Tramino 66%.

So tram like Tramino would be of no use in tracks like Prague, so these two trams will never compete. Tramino will compete with PESA, Combinos, Flexitys, Citadys, Crotrams, etc.... (I don't count Škoda 14T and 16T here since it is not 100% low floor).
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Old January 3rd, 2010, 01:09 AM   #98
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15T plan:
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Old January 3rd, 2010, 04:53 AM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Filip7370 View Post
70 cm between "wheels" is a quite good result. I just don't understand why near the articulation the are only so narrow seats. Well, from the mechanical part isn't a "something big", that's not a disadvantage because You can't discover a wheel again. For me it is a good rival for Solaris Tramlino. Both companies have not many (Skoda of course has more) experience in building this type of trams. I agree that "west" always underestimate "eastern" manufacturers. Look on Pesa trams.
Filip7370 you have misunderstood. As פובליק פיינט said, Tramlino is a first generation 100% low floor tram like Citadis, Bombardier, Combino. Not very good for legacy street systems with plenty of curves and less than perfect track. IMO 15T has made this technology obsolete.

I like the body style of Tramlino though. Many city authorities are attracted by such "sexy" look (Citadis is very good for this too). A pity Skoda couldn't have a better look. But it's a superficial thing that could be answered by a different colour scheme and different nose modules. Then it might have a better chance in the "western" market. I'm not sure 15T could even be an icon for Prague like T3 is, I really think they should consider a different colour scheme. Even 14T looks better.
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Old January 3rd, 2010, 12:54 PM   #100
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You also misunderstood me. I wanted to compare the market situation, not the design of both constructions. Both as a novum on the market must build their opinion. And that's the point where I completely agree with You
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