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Old January 3rd, 2010, 01:33 PM   #101
historyworks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Filip7370 View Post
You also misunderstood me. I wanted to compare the market situation, not the design of both constructions. Both as a novum on the market must build their opinion. And that's the point where I completely agree with You
Of course, I understand, I'm sorry! And with its "looks" Tramlino probably has a better chance in "western" market than Skoda!
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Old January 3rd, 2010, 01:59 PM   #102
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I'm not sure 15T could even be an icon for Prague like T3 is, I really think they should consider a different colour scheme. Even 14T looks better.
Speaking of design I like 15T lot more than 14T and I believe 15T will be very pleased by Prague citizens unlike 14T. 14T was overall mistake for Prague since it's fixed bogies destroys track on several lines. Prague got 60 of it till 2009 and fortunately will not buy more. And I think people in Wroclaw were not were pleased by 16T either, as far as I understand.
15T

14T - it's not 100% low floor so windows in different levels, nose is strange and fat, painting is weird...



T3 is "classic" late 50's design (first were tested in Prague in 1961 (!)), some of them may remain in refurbished versions to the future, like this T3R.PLF (Prague has 24 of them now)


Now it's high time to purchase new 100% low-floor staff here.

Last edited by פובליק פיינט; January 3rd, 2010 at 02:06 PM.
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Old January 3rd, 2010, 02:05 PM   #103
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Of course, I understand, I'm sorry! And with its "looks" Tramlino probably has a better chance in "western" market than Skoda!
I don't know, Tramino face looks like highspeed train, it may look good in modern cities sure, but in Prague where all lines runs though the city centre it would stand out like a sore thumb.
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Old January 3rd, 2010, 03:52 PM   #104
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I am saying I think many "western" cities (not Prague, even though it's western LOL!) would like the design of Tramlino.

As for 14T I am talking about style/colour, not technology. I think the problem with 15T is all that black. It makes it look a bit gothic. It needs to look "lighter". Bad enough having goth girls walking around the streets, we don't need goth trams too!
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Old January 3rd, 2010, 04:14 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by historyworks View Post
As for 14T I am talking about style/colour, not technology. I think the problem with 15T is all that black. It makes it look a bit gothic. It needs to look "lighter". Bad enough having goth girls walking around the streets, we don't need goth trams too!
I was also refering to 14T style/colour, for me it's terrible, especially on photos.
About 15T visual aspect, for me it looks quite decent and looks for sure better than 14T. After all, you can always change the painting.
Well I don't think we will ever agree on that .
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Old January 3rd, 2010, 05:38 PM   #106
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15T and Tramino are very ebautiful.
14T is the ugliest from low floor trams.

and well T3 is a classic but I hate this trams for me they are superbly ugly.
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Old January 3rd, 2010, 09:01 PM   #107
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prague trams are lovely, both the new modern ones and the claissical one's
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Old January 3rd, 2010, 10:26 PM   #108
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For me visually 15T is one of the most interesting trams in Europe. It is much more original.
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Old January 4th, 2010, 01:01 AM   #109
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Skoda 15t



source: http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/4189433287/
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Old January 4th, 2010, 03:12 AM   #110
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OK looks like 15T is the clear winner here LOL! I just think it looks too "vertical" - I think that's the effect of the black at the top. But yes it is a matter of interpretation. And a man with a tin of paint.

Funny that I always hated 14T until I got to Prague and saw it. Now I like it more but I agree with Tramwayman that it looks like a potato, but I like potatoes. A passenger-carrying potato (brambory tramvaj)
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Last edited by historyworks; January 4th, 2010 at 07:26 AM.
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Old January 4th, 2010, 07:32 AM   #111
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When computer simulations of 15T were released a year ago this colour scheme was included:



IMO I prefer it. What do you guys think?
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Old January 4th, 2010, 07:54 PM   #112
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IMO I prefer it. What do you guys think?
Let the main designer speak:

Quote:
The man responsible for this state-of-the-art vehicle, Ing. Arch. Patrik Kotas, commented: ‘The design of new Prague tram represent an altogether new concept of the external as well as internal form and spatial solution, which is based especially on the principle of visual lightness. The dominant theme sees the form of the front spherical windscreen merge into the window and roofs of the three-part body. On purpose, the dark surfaces contrast with silver metallic finish of the sills. The lower section red stripe unifies the perimeter of the tram, encompassing as it does the entire circumference, as well as the four key support frames. The position of these under the articulated links and the extended position under the front and rear of the vehicle is the most distinctive innovation as well as the most characteristic attribute of this construction and design concept. Trams help to create the architecture of a town and in the case of Prague they are also one of the symbols which characterize the Prague streets. The trams Škoda ForCity are ambitious to inject into those same streets a new, visually unique memorable element.’
http://www.skoda.cz/en/skoda-holding...y-aid2454.html


OK, we can always repaint it, never mind.
I think it looks better without that yellow face. And red stripe on the top? I don't know, I think I like it better how is it now.
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Old February 21st, 2010, 01:50 AM   #113
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15T on the streets of Prague again
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Old February 21st, 2010, 02:18 PM   #114
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....complete with wheel flat LOL!

I presume that is 9201 - no number on front?
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Old February 21st, 2010, 08:15 PM   #115
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Yes, it's without number, strange. One piece is back to Pilsen and this one is still being tested. I've heard serial production had started though.
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Old March 28th, 2010, 10:12 PM   #116
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New Tram in Prague, 1955 - T2, predecessor of legendary T3
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Old May 12th, 2010, 10:02 PM   #117
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I have been asking about the Skoda 15T on the Riga trams thread, but this would seem a more appropriate thread.

A look at the Skoda website reveals two features of the "ForCity" 15T which I haven't seen mentioned as yet.

1. The 15T has "Gearless individually controlled synchronous traction motors with permanent magnets". This is interesting because most modern trams and electric railcars use asynchronous motors. In fact all the other Skoda trams, 14T, 16T etc.etc., have asynchronous motors. Why is the 15T an exception? The website says that the 15T motors "distinctively reduce both energy requirements and maintenance costs", although it is not clear whether this is a direct result of their being synchronous motors, or due to some other design feature. Perhaps someone with a detailed knowledge of electric motor technology can enlighten us on this.

2. "The tram ŠKODA ForCity can only be driven from one end". However it is not clear whether this is a fundamental feature of the design (perhaps due to the bogies?) - or not.

If it is not a fundamental feature of the design, it could easily be made double-ended by providing a cab at each end.

However, if it is an inevitable part of the design, the 15T could not be used on systems and routes without turning loops at the termini.

I hope someone can provide further information on these points. This is especially interesting because the design is one which would seem be superior in some important respects to its competitors.
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Old May 12th, 2010, 10:26 PM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank H View Post
I have been asking about the Skoda 15T on the Riga trams thread, but this would seem a more appropriate thread.

A look at the Skoda website reveals two features of the "ForCity" 15T which I haven't seen mentioned as yet.

2. "The tram ŠKODA ForCity can only be driven from one end". However it is not clear whether this is a fundamental feature of the design (perhaps due to the bogies?) - or not.

If it is not a fundamental feature of the design, it could easily be made double-ended by providing a cab at each end.

However, if it is an inevitable part of the design, the 15T could not be used on systems and routes without turning loops at the termini.

I hope someone can provide further information on these points. This is especially interesting because the design is one which would seem be superior in some important respects to its competitors.
15T is more or less symmetrical, so it shouldn't be a problem to make a double-ended version of the tram.

The reason why it's single-ended is that the tram is designed especially for the Prague system. And Prague does not need more double-ended trams because all termini have turning loops.
Sometimes, double-ended trams areduring construction works when a line is terminated using this. But there are 48 double-ended trams of the type KT8D5(RN2.P) for this purpose.

I think that if someone offers double-ended 15T's, they will not have to make some large scale changes to the tram. It is the same with 14T, which will be supplied to Wroclaw in a double-ended version.
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Old May 13th, 2010, 12:54 AM   #119
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Hi again Frank H!

Sometimes things get lost in the translation to English on the Skoda website. 15T is designed equally to be bidirectional, just a matter of putting controls and another comfortable driver's "lounge room" at no 2 end and moving the panto to the centre.

There are some technical articles appearing on 15T if you google about. I found this that might help you:

http://www.electricalmonitor.com/GEN...gent-transport
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Old May 13th, 2010, 11:05 AM   #120
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Hi Frank H,
I will try to explain the reasons which may have led Škoda to use synchronous motors in 15T.

Since it is has rotating bogies, they need to be as small as possible to save space, and the synchronous motor is much smaller than asynchronous (induction) motor. That's why it is used in many electric road vehicles.

It is lighter than the asynchronous (induction) motor and thus decreases the force on the track. This is important since the motor on the bogie is a unsprung weight.

The size enables to connect the motor directly to the wheel and save additional weight and space by avoiding a gear box. Prague requested the least track wear possible.

The disadvantage is that is more difficult to use in in traction vehicles since the voltage in the overhead line fluctuates. Thus the drive train is more expensive.

There might be different reasons which I haven't thought about.

Synchronous motors are used on TGV, but for example ULF tram uses asynchronous motors, although in vertical configuration and not on the bogies.

I see now, your question was a little different. Lower maintenance costs are for sure due to the absence of the gearbox. Higher efficiency is achieved because the synchronous motor has better electrical efficiency and there are no losses in the absent gearbox, so this is a combination of the parameters of synchronous motor and the gearlessness of the drive train.

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