Vaux Site | Sunderland | Various | Pre-planning

[denm]

Hopefully this time next year, --things will have moved on a bit, --and we might find out who a preferred Developer will be, ---also I'm hopeful of better news regarding the proposed Combined Courts Complex on the Farringdon Row site.

[gld]

Originally Posted by denm

Hopefully this time next year, --things will have moved on a bit, --and we might find out who a preferred Developer will be, ---also I'm hopeful of better news regarding the proposed Combined Courts Complex on the Farringdon Row site.

Hope your right, btw, have there been any plans submitted for the Farringdon Row site?

[YorkshireMackem]

Originally Posted by gld

Hope your right, btw, have there been any plans submitted for the Farringdon Row site?

No plans submitted as of yet AFAIK.

I work for Gloucester URC (Gloucester's equivalent of Sunderland arc), and we are dealing with the HMCS for a development here and the situation is that the HMCS have had their budget cut drastically (quartered) and are therefore looking for commercial developers to fund their developments and agree a pre-let agreement with them.

I think the planning application will go in for Farringdon Row in the next 2-3 months, but it is likely that the actual build will depend on developer interest (which for all I know they could have found already).

[denm]

Originally Posted by YorkshireMackem

No plans submitted as of yet AFAIK.

I work for Gloucester URC (Gloucester's equivalent of Sunderland arc), and we are dealing with the HMCS for a development here and the situation is that the HMCS have had their budget cut drastically (quartered) and are therefore looking for commercial developers to fund their developments and agree a pre-let agreement with them.

I think the planning application will go in for Farringdon Row in the next 2-3 months, but it is likely that the actual build will depend on developer interest (which for all I know they could have found already).

Yeah, pretty much what you have said, ---because I'm sure I read we might here something in the Spring regarding planning, ----so here's hoping, --and thanks for the info.

[sterock85]

Originally Posted by YorkshireMackem

No plans submitted as of yet AFAIK.

I work for Gloucester URC (Gloucester's equivalent of Sunderland arc), and we are dealing with the HMCS for a development here and the situation is that the HMCS have had their budget cut drastically (quartered) and are therefore looking for commercial developers to fund their developments and agree a pre-let agreement with them.

I think the planning application will go in for Farringdon Row in the next 2-3 months, but it is likely that the actual build will depend on developer interest (which for all I know they could have found already).

Thanks for the info. And welcome to the forum!

[denm]

We should know who the preferred Developer for the Vaux site is this year, --I'm sure I read that the ARC and the Council spoke last year ---saying the process to appoint a Developer was advanced, --and an announcement would be made early this year, ------hope this happens.

[YorkshireMackem]

Originally Posted by sterock85

Thanks for the info. And welcome to the forum!

Thanks!

I have been observing the forum for a while now and seems like there's some like minded people on here who passionately care about and believe in the City of Sunderland and its future prosperity.

[YorkshireMackem]

Originally Posted by denm

We should know who the preferred Developer for the Vaux site is this year, --I'm sure I read that the ARC and the Council spoke last year ---saying the process to appoint a Developer was advanced, --and an announcement would be made early this year, ------hope this happens.

David Walker basically said that they are negotiating with an interested developer.

My understanding of this is that the developer are basically doing their sums in terms of proposed residential and commercial floorspace and also finalising an agreement with adjoining landowners as to the boundaries of the development. Last year, Sunderland arc entered into a joint area agreement with the City Council whereby they agreed to work together in terms of land holdings for the comprehensive development area and not just isolate it to the Tesco owned land. Part of the Vaux masterplan involves re-routing eastbound traffic along St. Mary's Way through the Vaux site, which means that the City Council (as highways authority) have to agree road layouts and land disposal/acquisition for this.

Also, David Walker mentioned that High Street West may come into the Vaux comprehensive development area, which is fantastic news, IMO. I would think that a lot of the current discussion with the developer will surround possible land acquisitions at High Street West, and how much of it would be included.

I would put my neck out and say that it is going to happen. From my experience in similar situations,if a developer has shown interest and are willing to plough resources into feasibility studies and 'doing their sums', the biggest hurdle is over with. But they cant tell us at the moment because it is a very delicate situation for so many reasons, from my own experience.

Once the developer is past this stage, they will adopt 'preferred developer' status and will sign an agreement with the Homes and Communities Agency (who will hopefully acquire the land from Tesco) for what is likely to be phased development.

[denm]

Some good information mate, cheers, ----your point regarding St Marys Way, ---I'm sure I read some time ago, that the Council planned to straighten the Road from Gill Bridge by constructing a underpass/Tunnel, ---and your point regarding incorporating High St West, --I too think this would be a good thing, --also the top part of High St, beside Gill Bridge will be made into a new Public Square, ---but as you say, it's going to be phased, ---only hope some thing happens this year.

[YorkshireMackem]

Originally Posted by denm

Some good information mate, cheers, ----your point regarding St Marys Way, ---I'm sure I read some time ago, that the Council planned to straighten the Road from Gill Bridge by constructing a underpass/Tunnel, ---and your point regarding incorporating High St West, --I too think this would be a good thing, --also the top part of High St, beside Gill Bridge will be made into a new Public Square, ---but as you say, it's going to be phased, ---only hope some thing happens this year.

I may be wrong, but I think the tunnel idea was an aspiration of Tesco's planning application for the site, given the large footprint of their proposed Tesco store and the resulting inability of a road to pass through. Having said that, I was also under the impression at one point that the Council were planning to put the road underground, maybe you're right.

Sunderland arc submitted a planning application back in 2007 for outline planning permission, which shows a road going through the site to serve residential blocks on the river front.



This drawing also shows the straightening of the road along St. Mary's Way, with additional buildings round the back of High Street West. The back of High Street West has always been an eyesore in my opinion and I hope they can create a quality frontage on to the new road.

[denm]

Apart from the Crown Court Complex, --- wonder how much more has been changed from the original master plan.?

[YorkshireMackem]

Originally Posted by denm

Apart from the Crown Court Complex, --- wonder how much more has been changed from the original master plan.?

I suspect not too much will change, TBH mate. The reason Sunderland arc will have applied for outline planning permission is to speed the project up when a developer is appointed and to reduce the risk for the appointed developer. It is common practice to apply for outline permission before marketing the site in regeneration projects where land is publically owned (or, in this case, the public sector has an aspiration to acquire the land) as it makes it far more attractive to the developers market.

I suspect the Crown Court Complex is the 'public building' as indicated on the masterplan, and it is likely that it would stay as a public building in some other form. Personally, im hoping (rather speculatively) for a cultural attraction such as a museum, art gallery or exhibition space which would tie in nicely with the proposed small element of retail and leisure units in the public square that it fronts on to, as well as the proximity to the 'Theatre quarter'.

The only concern I have is the amount of housing proposed, as the market is currently dead for high density housing (i.e. apartments). It may be the case that the appointed developer applies for an alteration to the existing permission to change building uses, which is a relatively simple process, as long as the building footprints and heights do not need to change.

[denm]

You have touched on something I've been wondering about, --that is, what will replace the Courts Complex on the original plan, ----lets hope they will come up with something with the Wow factor, --and not more housing.

[denm]

Anyone think we will ever see anything like this on the Vaux, ----

[Talisker]

Originally Posted by denm

You have touched on something I've been wondering about, --that is, what will replace the Courts Complex on the original plan, ----lets hope they will come up with something with the Wow factor, --and not more housing.

The original plan had housing around the outside (the northern and western edges) with retail and offices in the interior, closer to the city centre. There was a hotel near the car park in the north east corner. I think the south west corner featured a generic looking round building which could've been anything.

As for wow factor, how about a guggenheim?

[YorkshireMackem]

Originally Posted by Talisker

The original plan had housing around the outside (the northern and western edges) with retail and offices in the interior, closer to the city centre. There was a hotel near the car park in the north east corner. I think the south west corner featured a generic looking round building which could've been anything.

As for wow factor, how about a guggenheim?

I've recently been doing a bit of digging and found out a bit more info about the approved masterplan for the site.

Planning permission was granted for Sunderland arc's scheme by the Secretary of State in 2007. Before this, the appointed independent government inspector had recommended that the planning permission be refused based on a couple of things.

One reason was that the housing provision in the scheme was seen as excessive and the other was that the Environmental Assessment (covering road traffic impact and the impact of the buildings in physical terms) was not comprehensive enough.

Following the report by the inspector, the SoS did not refuse the planning permission, but requested further information from Sunderland arc regarding the above concerns. SArc then produced a 'Consolidated Masterplan', which basically forms a detailed physical masterplan addressing the concerns raised by the inspector. Planning permission for the scheme was then granted based on this consolidated masterplan.

The SoS gave planning permission based on a range of conditions:

Most notably, the 'reserved matters' (i.e. detailed design work) for the first phase of development had to be submitted within 3 years of the date when planning permission was granted (i.e. by 28th March 2010).

Work on site should begin within 3 years of the date that the last of the reserved matters for the first phase of development have been approved by the local planning authority.

Also, another condition is that the housing mix on the site must be agreed by the local planning authority in accordance with housing need guidelines and 'affordable housing' strategy, and must not exceed 1000 dwellings. In my opinion, this is likely to mean that the housing element would be substantially less than 1000 dwellings.

So, in summary, the developer is unlikely to resubmit a whole new planning application as it would cost countless time and money to do so, as well as another saga with the Secretary of State (as is required with a development this size). Therefore, the existing planning permission will be used and building massing, types, heights, uses, etc will be maintained.

Most importantly, the developer needs to get a move on to submit the first stage of design work, as outlined above. So *fingers crossed* we should see some movement very soon!

[denm]

Thats interesting mate, ----so really, ---apart from the Crown Court, theres not much else will change, ---and that we could possibly here of progress this year, ---thats got to be good news.

[YorkshireMackem]

Been doing a bit more digging today and found out some more info on this (from a council committee meeting minutes paper, available on the council website).

The recent echo article took quotes from the same meeting, but now the minutes of the meeting are available for public viewing so we can see everything that was discussed. Main points that haven't been reported so far (as far as I know):

The amount of new homes provided in the scheme will be approximately 500, down from 1000 as originally planned to adjust to market conditions.

The amount of 'affordable housing' will depend on the level of grant funding from the Homes and Communities Agency

The first phase of the scheme will be a hotel, offices and public realm improvements (including main public square)

If the site was 'acquired tomorrow', relevant planning applications (reserved matters, as I mentioned above) could be going to the planning sub-committee for approval by the Autumn, with work beginning on site in late 2011

The site will be developed in 5 to 8 phases over approximately 8 years

All good news in my opinion. I genuinely think we will see some movement in the next month in terms of acquiring the site from Tesco.

[Talisker]

If the plan is to build in phases, then why not attempt to buy the corresponding area of the site from tesco in phases also? Possibly what they are thinking of, it seams perfectly logical to me. The hotel from the original masterplan was on that grotty little piece of land in front of st.mary's car park if I remember rightly. This would be an excellent location for a high quality hotel building. Surely that patch of land could be bought from tesco without too much bother.

[architect1976]

Originally Posted by Talisker

If the plan is to build in phases, then why not attempt to buy the corresponding area of the site from tesco in phases also? Possibly what they are thinking of, it seams perfectly logical to me. The hotel from the original masterplan was on that grotty little piece of land in front of st.mary's car park if I remember rightly. This would be an excellent location for a high quality hotel building. Surely that patch of land could be bought from tesco without too much bother.

Because Tesco would no doubt try and refuse to sell the last remaining section.