daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old December 7th, 2009, 05:59 PM   #41
Oponopono
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 18,515
Likes (Received): 1615

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Very few, but on the same tracks there are hundreds of faster passenger trains...
That is exactly why I used a freight-only line to compare with American infrastructure. So that we didn't have the passenger trains to worry about.

Now, of course, we could go in deep about the specialized infrastructure subject and its effects on overall efficiency along with the two different approaches to it in Europe and the US.
Oponopono no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old December 7th, 2009, 06:54 PM   #42
makita09
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,536
Likes (Received): 92

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oponopono View Post
That is exactly why I used a freight-only line to compare with American infrastructure. So that we didn't have the passenger trains to worry about.

Now, of course, we could go in deep about the specialized infrastructure subject and its effects on overall efficiency along with the two different approaches to it in Europe and the US.
I think this is it must be a deeper discussion, because there are not really any freight only routes in Europe. Whilst there are sections, and some of them quite long, where freight in the only traffic, nearly every freight train is going to or coming from a mixed traffic area.

Otherwise we aren't comparing apples with oranges, but horses and unicorns (one exists the other doesn't) and making false comparisons.

I agree with what you say in your previous post regarding insurance premiums etc, but I imagine it is precisely this which causes the European approach, rather than it being done for its own sake.
makita09 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 7th, 2009, 10:59 PM   #43
jayOOfoshO
Registered User
 
jayOOfoshO's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 3,746
Likes (Received): 115

The difference between American and European railroad networks is that they have one and we don't.
jayOOfoshO no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 7th, 2009, 11:15 PM   #44
andrelot
BANNED
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 861
Likes (Received): 7

That's not true nor fair. If you look into stats, you're goint to see that American railways carries n-fold times more freight tonage per year than Europe. The difference is really huge, I just don't have the number right now. On the other side, they carry passengers and clog their freeways with trucks. Less than 15% of total freight tonXdistance freight travels go through rail there, in US this proportion is 38% - and distances are far greater than in Europe.
andrelot no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 8th, 2009, 03:10 AM   #45
Slartibartfas
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Vedunia
Posts: 11,613
Likes (Received): 5972

your last line is the key to the difference. The distances for freight traffic are much greater. Trucks are just so much more competitive in Europe, because the network is much denser and distances tend to be considerably shorter on average. Thats not the sole reason of course, but a structural reason that would make it extremely hard for Europe to catch up with the US on freight rail shares. Improving the share in Europe should be a priority and also a realistic option however.
__________________
"Brexit means Brexit and we are going to make a Titanic success of it.”
Boris Johnson, Foreign Secretary, UK
Slartibartfas no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 8th, 2009, 03:45 AM   #46
zo1D
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 3
Likes (Received): 0

again, thx for all the input

just to be clear: I'm going to limit the comparison to USA vs WEST-Europe
zo1D no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 8th, 2009, 11:24 AM   #47
andrelot
BANNED
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 861
Likes (Received): 7

The most rail dependent industry in US are coal powerplants. It's nearly impossible to conceive the present geographical dispersion of coal powerplants without availability of cheap and reliable rail freight. Can you imagine: trucks hauling coal from Appalachian Mountains all the way to Nebraska, for instance? Impossible.
andrelot no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 8th, 2009, 12:51 PM   #48
poshbakerloo
***Alexxx***
 
poshbakerloo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: London, Manchester, Cheshire, Sheffield, Moscow
Posts: 5,094
Likes (Received): 292

The US needs some smaller, longer, lighter and faster trains...and decent tracks to run em on...
__________________
"BEFORE WE MARRY...I HAVE A SECRET!"

I <3 London
poshbakerloo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 8th, 2009, 01:43 PM   #49
Nexis
Dark Wolf
 
Nexis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Along the Rails of North Jersey..
Posts: 15,688
Likes (Received): 17045

We are getting Smaller Alex , i like how you criticize us , i think ur jealous. Its getting annoying.

San Diego Sprinter





Raritan Valley Line - NJT



North Jersey Coastal Line - NJT



Keystone Line - Amtrak



Southern Pittsburgh Line - Amtrak & NS



~Corey
__________________
My FLICKR Page < 54,100+ Photos of Urban Renewal , Infrastructure , Food and Nature in the Northeastern US
Visit the Reorganized New York City Section
My Photography Website
Visit the New Jersey Section
Nexis no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 8th, 2009, 02:19 PM   #50
makita09
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,536
Likes (Received): 92

Quote:
Originally Posted by andrelot View Post
The most rail dependent industry in US are coal powerplants. It's nearly impossible to conceive the present geographical dispersion of coal powerplants without availability of cheap and reliable rail freight. Can you imagine: trucks hauling coal from Appalachian Mountains all the way to Nebraska, for instance? Impossible.
I think this is the same in Europe. Certainly in the UK most coal goes by rail.
makita09 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 8th, 2009, 02:41 PM   #51
poshbakerloo
***Alexxx***
 
poshbakerloo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: London, Manchester, Cheshire, Sheffield, Moscow
Posts: 5,094
Likes (Received): 292

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexis View Post
We are getting Smaller Alex , i like how you criticize us , i think ur jealous. Its getting annoying.
I'm not being mean, just honest...anyway the NEC is fine, its just the rest which has suffered neglect...

they dnt even need to waste time on electrifying lines...(ignore the wires lol) the train is a diesel.



__________________
"BEFORE WE MARRY...I HAVE A SECRET!"

I <3 London
poshbakerloo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 9th, 2009, 12:18 AM   #52
Slartibartfas
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Vedunia
Posts: 11,613
Likes (Received): 5972

Quote:
Originally Posted by makita09 View Post
I think this is the same in Europe. Certainly in the UK most coal goes by rail.
Regarding coal I think the only feasible alternative to rail would be by ship. It does not have to be a sea harbor for that, a shippable river is enough.
__________________
"Brexit means Brexit and we are going to make a Titanic success of it.”
Boris Johnson, Foreign Secretary, UK
Slartibartfas no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 10th, 2009, 01:26 AM   #53
Eddard Stark
Keep your head
 
Eddard Stark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Bruxelles
Posts: 13,171
Likes (Received): 3847

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexis View Post
We are getting Smaller Alex , i like how you criticize us , i think ur jealous. Its getting annoying.

San Diego Sprinter





Raritan Valley Line - NJT



North Jersey Coastal Line - NJT



Keystone Line - Amtrak



Southern Pittsburgh Line - Amtrak & NS



~Corey
Are you really saying that a continent where most people have never set a foot on a train can compare to a continent that travels continously on trains and has HSR lines all over with travelling speed at 300 km/h?

It's nice to have freight trains, if you use your lines (in a poor dismal state let me add: no electricity, old materials, lots of street crossing - without lights often!) for freight that's very good...however here we use it for everything...and the system is far denser and more complex than in the US
Eddard Stark no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 10th, 2009, 02:20 AM   #54
Mekky II
BANNED
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,806
Likes (Received): 16

Your study should really be between USA and Russia. russian railway network is unified. Russia is 4th country in the world for number of passengers annually, coming after dense countries like India/China/Japan... meaning that overall, european countries always give great importance to passenger networks... without talking that in period of wars, trains were very useful to move military troops.

But where it's impressive, it's that Russia comes second to USA for railway length and and it absorbs 40% of russia’s freight traffic (the 3rd of the world)... meaning that distances are well an important factor in freight traffic, and final costs to transport a product from one point to another.
Mekky II no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 10th, 2009, 02:31 AM   #55
Mekky II
BANNED
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,806
Likes (Received): 16

"The volume of traffic in Germany, especially goods transportation, is at a very high level due to its central location in Europe. In the past few decades, much of the freight traffic shifted from rail to road, which led the Federal Government to introduce a motor toll for trucks in 2005"

Now it can be an absolute answer : money

It surely costs more money for companies in Europe to transport by trains that in US.
Mekky II no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 10th, 2009, 04:35 AM   #56
andrelot
BANNED
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 861
Likes (Received): 7

Russia doesn't have a truly freeway system to compete and complete the railways.
andrelot no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 10th, 2009, 06:53 AM   #57
sotavento
Registered user
 
sotavento's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 7,433
Likes (Received): 325

Quote:
Originally Posted by andrelot View Post
Well, people pretty much gave insights, but I'd never cease to emphasize that the fundamental difference is that US rail system is direct to transport freight, therefore optimized for that - which, I think, makes a lot of sense.


I would disagree. Railway companies in US have updated their tracks to bear those loads.


As unintended consquence of the demise of passenger rail transport in US was that its network was optimized for freight.

It would be impossible for European rail companies to run a barely as-near-as efficient freight operation like in US when they have to clear the way for passenger traffic, are restricted in regard of size of trains etc. It is simply not compatible: you can have a good passenger operation, or a good freight operation, but you cannot have both running in the same tracks. Passenger trains are very disruptive for freight: they have defined scheduled, they cannot be hold at intermediate stations or signal posts, and so on.

Moreover, US is decades ahead of European network in respect of security requirements for passenger trains. US passenger cars are almost "armoured" vehicles that can withstand a collision or derailment with far less casualities or damage than their European counterparts. Europe should learn about rail safety with US, and adopt some of its standards to reduce accidents.
2 faulse assumptions.


Bulkier does not equal safer.

If passenger trains were run in american railways in the same intensity that they are run in weuropean rails we would see news about large death tolls in american rails everyday.

dedicated freight and passenger networks are much less efficient than a mixed traffic network ... vast examples exist in europe where a mixed network can cope efficiently with vast amounts of traffic that in the USA one would never even dream of seying.

A small scale example ... over here (portugal) we have a small (almost entirely single track) network (not even near the top european networks)

On my neighbourhood we have 1 major auto factory , some steel mills , oil refineries and a lot of other major industrial enterprises ... major freight traffic is as follow:

Auto trains (2 , 3 or more each day) run about 50km factory-harbour.center
Coal trains (2200ton each) run harbour.south-north.powerplant 3 times a day each direction
copper trains (2,3 times a day) run south-harbour.center
container traffic averages a couple of million TEU's
wood and paper pulp trains are in the dozens daily
add dozens of trains loaded with jet fuel , cement , dangerous materials , ashes , cattle food , cereal , pesticides and many many other stuff

And this runs in a timetable manner in mostly single track routes ...




did I even mentioned that this all runs mixed up with express 220km/h tilting trains , fast intercity and a variety of commuter and regional trains ???

If one thinks about it ... the NEC area of influence (east coast Washington-boston in the USA) has probably the same amount of freight and passenger trains that my local backyard ... or even less.


the main differences being preciselly that is has about 5/10 times as much population and that it serves as a direct feeder/destination for the majority of the traffic that goes into the interland ... compared to the east coast we don't have nothing to do with our fellow europeans who live in our "interland".

Another random example:

Our local auto factory has direct auto-trains full of auto parts to/from so far away as poland ... it's a logistic nightmare 2700km long (at least 5 different antional railways involved and god knows how many different track,signaling,electric systems).

A similar train in the USA would be just handed over to UP o BNSF.

this is a very good example of HOW DIFFERENT both networks are.

EDIT: on an aftertought ... europeans tend to favour road haualge because most transporte is just door to next door and a simple lorry/truck can deal with that kind of traffic ... thats' the same principle that is being aplied to the rail entworks where newer companies just enter the amrket and buy a single loco (or a couple of them at most) and start to operate door to door services.
__________________
"O País perdeu a inteligência e a consciência moral. Ninguém se respeita nem crê na honestidade dos homens públicos. O povo está na miséria. Os serviços públicos vão abandonados. A mocidade arrasta-se das mesas das secretarias para as mesas dos cafés. A ruína económica cresce o comércio definha, a indústria enfraquece. O salário diminui. O Estado é considerado um ladrão e tratado como um inimigo.
Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
— Eça

Last edited by sotavento; December 10th, 2009 at 06:59 AM.
sotavento no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 10th, 2009, 10:59 AM   #58
TedStriker
Over Macho Grande
 
TedStriker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: London
Posts: 2,517
Likes (Received): 385

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mekky II View Post
"The volume of traffic in Germany, especially goods transportation, is at a very high level due to its central location in Europe. In the past few decades, much of the freight traffic shifted from rail to road, which led the Federal Government to introduce a motor toll for trucks in 2005"

Now it can be an absolute answer : money

It surely costs more money for companies in Europe to transport by trains that in US.

It certainly does cost more.

However much of the reluctance of shippers in Europe to divert cargo traffic to conventional rail freight services and/or intermodal road/rail systems stems from the reliability issues that have long been a feature of the European rail system.

It's true there have been great improvements in Europe in recent years, to the extent that some rail freight operations bear no resemblance to the patchwork quilt of nation states that make up the Continent and instead resemble logical trade routes or geographical areas.

An example of this is the small, yet fast-growing company known as Hector Rail, which happily works across Norway, Sweden, Denmark and Germany without the company employees having a nervous breakdown.

On the other hand, Europe’s trade unions still enjoy throwing spanners in the works of the traditional state-owned railway operators, such as DB Schenker, and then there are still a vast array of working practices, and other issues that can delay pan-European train journeys.

This is where Europe can be jealous of North America, where the 'rail road' system operates on a logical basis, based around corridors, regions and networks that all link together.
TedStriker no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 11th, 2009, 05:11 AM   #59
mgk920
Nonhyphenated-American
 
mgk920's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Appleton, WI USA
Posts: 2,583
Likes (Received): 68

Not only are railroads (other than for non-connected tram and LRT lines) fully standardized in the USA, but they are also 100% compatible with the railroads in both Canada and Mexico and the three countries regularly interchange a LOT of rail freight traffic between them.

Also, besides the far stronger couplers used here in North America (China and Australia plus a few other countries also use North American rail standards) - stronger than those used in Europe by a factor of eight - but also loading gauges in North America are far more generous than those of Europe. Note that in those above video clips that North American railroads can easily handle double-stacked containers while some railroads in Europe have such *TINY* tunnel bores that specialized 'low floor' cars are needed to be able to run *single* stacked containers on them. When double-stacked containers became common here (1980s), all that some railroads had to do to be able to handle them was to cut small 'notches' into the upper corners of some tunnels.

It would cast a real fortune to rebuild most European lines to be able to clear the same freight and some passenger trains that can run here in North America - think of the cost and hassles of adopting North American couplers, beefing up the electrical power systems and track structures and then lengthening yard tracks and passing sidings to be able to handle those much longer, bigger and heavier trains. North American railroads often run those double-stacked container trains up to 3 km long and full coal trains will easily reach 15.000t.

Mike
mgk920 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 11th, 2009, 05:22 AM   #60
Xusein
 
Xusein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Seattle
Posts: 26,176
Likes (Received): 10413

The irony about the US rail system is that the region that has the most passenger usage (Northeast US) has the weakest freight infrastructure.
Xusein no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 06:42 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium