Liverpool's games industry and the future

[Norman Heatley]

Originally Posted by Cherguevara

I see your point and for Liverpool you may be right. But it could be that from a regional perspective NWDA have the right idea. Liverpool has a small but significant game sector. However as with all Liverpool's creative and digital businesses it suffers from being isolated relative to the market for its services (largely London, Manchester or international connections through London). If the NWDA is trying to build games into mediacity it is more likely to be to take advantage of bringing some of that market to the NWs primary economic centre than to actively undermine Liverpool (if indeed that happens). So a games industry market in Manchester may not benefit Liverpool as much as one in Liverpool might, but for Manchester, Lancashire and Cheshire it's better. The real problem then with the NWDA is not that it values Manchester over Liverpool, but that it values the NW as a whole, and for the most part that means investing in the most productive and regionally accessible subregion, i.e. Greater Manchester (and probably not all Greater Manchester but GM South).

The approach for the RDAs has been to focus on cluster development as a result of Porter's report on UK industry in the early part of the decade. The usual way this is done is to support and expand the existing cluster i.e. Liverpool for the N.West. However, in this case the NWDA has decided to ignore the existing thriving cluster and attempt to create one elsewhere. The reason is that this is a purely political decision driven by a need to make a success of Media City by any means necessary. If Manchester has all the inherent advantages then why haven't these companies already chosen to set up there? It's interesting that successful companies in the S.East are based in places like Guildford, Brighton, and Portsmouth over London. In the Scottish example, and in the absence of the obvious political bias, they chose to support the existing cluster in Dundee over attempting to transplant it to Glasgow. The NWDA approach in this case goes against what Porter advocated when he reported to the UK government. The only thing we have seen in relation to any sort of justification for this proposal is the ludicrous closed shop excuse.

If the NWDA really did want to benefit the wider region then they would look to support and expand the existing cluster in Liverpool. This would be much more cost-effective, quicker, and a lower risk solution than attempting to cannibalize the existing sector and transplant it to Manchester. They could then put their efforts towards building a completely new industry cluster in Media City that would bring in new jobs and investment to the region. This would be a much better use of tax payers money and deliver a much greater benefit to the region.

[Norman Heatley]

Originally Posted by Cherguevara

Can someone explain to me how the role of the NWDA in this really matters, as if AGMA had control over their share of the NWDA budget (as they want to) then they'd presumably be spending it on a computer games development for mediacity as well?

No they wouldn't because the business case simply would not stack up. If a successful existing cluster is already operating 35 miles away, and they are also proposing a centre of excellence, then it would not represent a good investment decision. What they might do, however, is identify a new sector in which they could develop a new cluster and put the money to better use there. This would benefit the entire N.West region. The current NWDA attempts at market manipulation for political purposes may run the risk of undermining the entire sector. This is exactly the danger of government intervention in a market-driven environment that Porter warned about.

[jets9]

There is general agreement that NWDA are potentially helping to distort the market.....at the moment a theoretical academy doesn't damage the Liverpool infrastructure but all hell would break out if private sector investments followed in short order around the media city site.

However what is really worrying about this is that there is very little of a political backlash developing from the Livepool city region and that may be because the politicians and admin shakers and movers are hesitating.......do they really want to piss off Peel who are important in a number of key sectors in the merseyside economy? Do they really want to attack NWDA and muddy the waters with so many other financial hand out projects?

Yes that's what's concerning me.....that they haven't got the balls and they are hesitating because Peel and the NWDA have got them by the 'short and curlies.'

By the way it's Cllr Gary Millar who has put his head above the parapet on this one and he can easily be contacted by e mail through the LCC website.

[Awayo]

I've tried. Why don't you also? I don't live in the city council area atm and so he's under little obligation to respond.

[Cherguevara]

Originally Posted by Norman Heatley

No they wouldn't because the business case simply would not stack up. If a successful existing cluster is already operating 35 miles away, and they are also proposing a centre of excellence, then it would not represent a good investment decision. What they might do, however, is identify a new sector in which they could develop a new cluster and put the money to better use there. This would benefit the entire N.West region. The current NWDA attempts at market manipulation for political purposes may run the risk of undermining the entire sector. This is exactly the danger of government intervention in a market-driven environment that Porter warned about.

If the business case makes no difference to the NWDA then it would make no difference to AGMA, an agency that by defitinition is even less concerned with Liverpool's development prospects.

I'm not convinced of the idea that this industry can only exist in one place in 'the region' anyway. I think Tony has made a reasonable case why this might lead to eventual problems for the expansion of the industry in Liverpool. But as the existing cluster is a product of Liverpool, it's assets and networks (which this investment is not going to interfere with), then there's no reason Liverpool shouldn't keep the small firms it has and keep developing new ones even if Manchester develops its own sector presence.

[Richard_A]

Stop saying 'small' regarding Liverpool games sector. The word you are looking for is 'significant'.

Page 1, post 1:

"Generally, the North West region contributes far above its weight to the national and international industry. A handful of the truly big players in the industry are based here. Liverpool, according to Enda, is right at the top of the videogames production tree in the UK and is one of the big players on the world gaming scene too."

[Awayo]

I know, it was daft for Tony to have used the word. Cher couldn't believe his luck and immediately pounced upon it to assist his "arguments". Liverpool's games development industry is of international importance.

[Richard_A]

Originally Posted by Cherguevara

...then there's no reason Liverpool shouldn't keep the small firms it has and keep developing new ones even if Manchester develops its own sector presence.

So, you're saying that this 'regional' centre of excellence is really about "Manchester {developing} its own sector presence"?

[Splendidineogh]

Originally Posted by Awayo

I've tried. Why don't you also? I don't live in the city council area atm and so he's under little obligation to respond.

I have also. As a matter of principle - a sense of fairness, economic principles, politics and perhaps some other reasons - I also emailed some of Liverpool's councillors and MPs. Leader of the Lid Dems, Leader of Labour, and a few others. I got an automated response from Ellman saying she hadn't read it yet, but haven't heard a thing back from anybody else.

I don't reside in the area, but they aren't aware of that. Notwithstanding the lack of courtesy in failing to respond, it would be nice to know that they are listening. But surely they are..?

Other than us two Awayo, have any of the locals bothered firing off some emails?

The thing is, Liverpool isn't a weak partner in the NW. I know a little bit about national and local politics on the ground and I know that even small district councils can have some sway when they want to kick up a fuss. Liverpool is a major city and the North West depends on Liverpool's cooperation, especially when you factor in its five partner authorities.

They need to have the balls to kick up a fuss. If Peel want to open a computer game centre of excellence then let them. But the NWDA, as a matter of principle, fairness and economic common sense, should not be going near it.

I understand what Jets is saying about not wanting to upset the NWDA and Peel. But I don't buy that. Firstly, the shit regional development agency will probably be abolished after June once the Tories get in power, and Peel actually have quite a big incentive to try to get along with Liverpool, considering their (alleged) ambitions for large parts of the city. So there is no need for Liverpool not to stick up for itself as far as these two are concerned.

[Awayo]

Peel aren't actually very important in this. Yes, they want to fill the office space they are building but would do so with anything they could get their hands on. It is the UK Government and its agency, the NWDA, that has hatched this games academy plan.

[Norman Heatley]

Originally Posted by jets9

There is general agreement that NWDA are potentially helping to distort the market.....at the moment a theoretical academy doesn't damage the Liverpool infrastructure but all hell would break out if private sector investments followed in short order around the media city site.

However what is really worrying about this is that there is very little of a political backlash developing from the Livepool city region and that may be because the politicians and admin shakers and movers are hesitating.......do they really want to piss off Peel who are important in a number of key sectors in the merseyside economy? Do they really want to attack NWDA and muddy the waters with so many other financial hand out projects?

Yes that's what's concerning me.....that they haven't got the balls and they are hesitating because Peel and the NWDA have got them by the 'short and curlies.'

By the way it's Cllr Gary Millar who has put his head above the parapet on this one and he can easily be contacted by e mail through the LCC website.

Why have none of the local media outlets picked up on it?

The issue for Liverpool going forward is that with the NWDA attempting to locate most of their senior staff in Manchester then it all becomes even more corrupt and self-fulfilling. Bryan Gray, the old chairman of the NWDA, landed a nice job last year at Peel Media, the developers of Media City. He then actually continued in both roles well into this year! Robert Hough, the new chairman, comes from …... Peel Holdings. Does this all sound a little too cosy?

Broomhead probably knows his days are numbered and he now wants to sort himself out for his next position. It's thus in his interests to ensure he arranges everything close to home in preparation for his next move. Will he be employed by Peel by the end of 2010?

[MarkG]

Originally Posted by Splendidineogh

Other than us two Awayo, have any of the locals bothered firing off some emails?

I have, like others I am awaiting a response.

[jay_90_08]

Originally Posted by MarkG

I have, like others I am awaiting a response.

ditto

[Norman Heatley]

Originally Posted by Cherguevara

If the business case makes no difference to the NWDA then it would make no difference to AGMA, an agency that by defitinition is even less concerned with Liverpool's development prospects.

I'm not convinced of the idea that this industry can only exist in one place in 'the region' anyway. I think Tony has made a reasonable case why this might lead to eventual problems for the expansion of the industry in Liverpool. But as the existing cluster is a product of Liverpool, it's assets and networks (which this investment is not going to interfere with), then there's no reason Liverpool shouldn't keep the small firms it has and keep developing new ones even if Manchester develops its own sector presence.

It is totally different. The NWDA has only facilitated one set of government funding and so the decision criteria are different. If Liverpool and Manchester both had access to this funding to spend as they wished then the business case would look totally different. Why would Manchester waste investment in the area if all the companies and expertise are already established in Liverpool? They wouldn't. The development gives them a massive advantage because it will be used to sell the location on the back of subsidised office space, start-up funding etc. The University of Salford will no doubt receive funding to run courses in the area. It is politically motivated meddling by the regional quango that can only undermine an existing cluster in another part of the region because the team at the NWDA have decided that they can't have their biggest project fail.

[Tony Sebo]

Originally Posted by Awayo

I know, it was daft for Tony to have used the word. Cher couldn't believe his luck and immediately pounced upon it to assist his "arguments". Liverpool's games development industry is of international importance.

only to a point. I meant small as in the number of companies and people they employ, there imact is as international as any other city's firms in this sector though.

I don't understand why anyone would bother trying to rationalise this ridiculous and underhand move... it is beneath contempt, but it DOES highlight precisely what the NWDA are about.

I have aslso sent off a number of emails raising my concerns to some, hopefully, important folk. I have an important meeting on Wednesday too, where I will raise this issue adn demand a response.

[Nathan Dawz]

All the NWDA is, is a mechanism for transferring subsidies from Manchester to Merseyside, and that's all.

All this bleeting on by Scousers about how hard done by they are by the NWDA is just trying to mask that the NWDA has been milking Manchester and Cheshire for years, so as to provide extra funds to Merseyside to help it catch up. The stats are in this thread and they prove exactly that.

[img]http://i47.************/nfl8gm.jpg[/img]

Unfortunately for us, and thankfully for you, Scouse politicians won't kick up a fuss because they know the NWDA is a cash cow provding endless subsidies to Merseyside.

The Greater Manchester councils would scrap the NWDA tomorrow if they could since it costs us an arm and a leg.

[wiggleyleeds]

I think you miss the point.

Spending 20 million to regenerate a handful of streets in an inner city area in liverpool, is very different to putting up say 5 million, in collaboration with government, to make a decision to focus energies on artificially conceiving a games industry in manchester, or spending just a mere 20 thousand pounds in marketing and consultancy fees to provide a feasibility study into why locating 5,000 whitehall jobs in manchester will benefit the NW.

Its not about raw numbers at all.

[wiggleyleeds]

Anyway, why you lot are spending so much time trying to reason with manchester forummers, who naturally *will* tell you that nothing was immoral/unethical/under-handed about this decison, is beyond me. Focus your energy on other stuff

Originally Posted by Norman Heatley

Why have none of the local media outlets picked up on it?

because most of the people on here prefer to spend 40 or 50 hours typing and replying to people on the net trying to convince the unconvincable, rather than 6 or 7 minutes sending several emails.

When I had an issue over something in Leeds, I copy pasted all 99 councillors from a website and sent them all the same email in one go, as well as the local RDA, investinleeds, leedsfinancialservices, locateinleeds, and leedsinitiative, as well as parlimentary MPs. I even got a personal hand written reply frm hilary ben

It would also help in this specific instance to email all the local papers too, and the echo or whatever u guys call ur main paper.

Dont expect someone else will do it on here, do it yourself, all of you. The reason why u really need to do this is because its the type of thing that even the slightet bit of fuss kicked up over will result in a reversion of this decsion (simply because it is so unjust).

Move it, Move it, Move it

[Norman Heatley]

Originally Posted by Nathan Dawz

All the NWDA is, is a mechanism for transferring subsidies from Manchester to Merseyside, and that's all.

All this bleeting on by Scousers about how hard done by they are by the NWDA is just trying to mask that the NWDA has been milking Manchester and Cheshire for years, so as to provide extra funds to Merseyside to help it catch up. The stats are in this thread and they prove exactly that.


Unfortunately for us, and thankfully for you, Scouse politicians won't kick up a fuss because they know the NWDA is a cash cow provding endless subsidies to Merseyside.

The Greater Manchester councils would scrap the NWDA tomorrow if they could since it costs us an arm and a leg.

As has already been explained in this thread, these are not relevant to this discussion because the funding is coming from the SIF. They thus ignore the large government-funded projects that NWDA spend a great deal of time procuring and end up in Manchester. These figures also include the ERDF funding for Merseyside that is distributed via NWDA. If they were adjusted to reflect this then the picture would be very different. It's no surprise that you feel the need to do this if you are from a town where corruption and dodgy dealing are celebrated as major achievements. Cumbria is receiving three times more per head than Merseyside this year (for similar reasons). Will you also be displaying your small-minded bigotry towards them?

[Tom Hughes]

Originally Posted by Norman Heatley

As has already been explained in this thread, these are not relevant to this discussion because the funding is coming from the SIF. They thus ignore the large government-funded projects that NWDA spend a great deal of time procuring and end up in Manchester. These figures also include the ERDF funding for Merseyside that is distributed via NWDA. If they were adjusted to reflect this then the picture would be very different. It's no surprise that you feel the need to do this if you are from a town where corruption and dodgy dealing are celebrated as major achievements. Cumbria is receiving three times more per head than Merseyside this year (for similar reasons). Will you also be displaying your small-minded bigotry towards them?

I turned off after "bleeting Scousers"! Can't abide misspelt insults! or is that misspelled?

These people have enjoyed the gravy train for years, yet call us! As already mentioned this scenario sums up a disparity in attitude and preferential treatment that is inherently and politically corrupt..... and should be questioned. There is no reason why Manchester should receive funding to help catapult it ahead of Liverpool in an industry that it has worked hard over a number of years to establish, and is well recognised for. These jobs are not limitless, their gain could once again be our loss!