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Old February 18th, 2014, 09:51 PM   #2541
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Bibi-Heybat Mosque - Baku, Azerbaijan (Built 1997)

The building is new yet it is a copy of historical Bibi-Heybat Mosque destroyed by communists in 1936.
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Old February 18th, 2014, 10:26 PM   #2542
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Old February 18th, 2014, 10:42 PM   #2543
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Sorry for not having the time to mark every picture posted here with what is wrong and what is right.
You might just take a look on older posts of mine on certain buildings where i did as you directed.


But for gods sake, just some examples of how its done right:



i hope you can spot the differences in proportion and detail. shouldnt be to hard at all
I'm sorry dude but your being a bit of a whacko. First of all this is Viennese architecture at its best. In Vienna they have a long tradition of this architecture so they will stick to it, even if it is expensive. Second, Baku and the rest of the word is not Vienna. We also don't live in the 19th century. Modern construction techniques are cheaper and faster thus more cost effective in Baku and other places. Plus there is also the concept of EVOLUTION. Are you really asking the whole world to get stuck in the 19th century because the "proportions" of their architecture appeal you YOUR EYE? Like a dictator you are IMPOSING YOUR WILL on others because of your personal preferences. What you call "proper proportions" is simply your own personal habituation. You grew up with that style and when you first noticed it at 10 11yrs old it left an "impression" in your mind. You really liked it so to this day you think it is the best. Great! It is the best for you, but not all of us grew up with the same influence, so we like other things. There is nothing wrong with "evolving" architecture and adding modern elements to 19th century styles. It's just the way the world works, things change over time. You are perfectly free to live in a 19th century neighborhood if that is what you like, but stop bashing others for having different preferences than you. And that is what this is, PERSONAL PREFERENCE, and your attempt at justifying YOUR PREFERENCE as some sort of "mathematically quantifiable esthetic" that is superior, is pure bullshit. The human mind is molded by "habit". Your personal esthetic perceptions are the end result of your "habitual experience" of the neighborhood you grew up in, and trying to pretend that that gives you an elite right to judge others is nonsense.

You have every right not to like whatever you don't, but there is no such thing as "correct architectural esthetic". If we are talking about engineering, different story, but when it comes to "art" it really is in the eye of the beholder. I don't like all the examples posted on here either, but so what, it is mostly personal preference. The only architecture that is "WRONG" is poorly engineered structures that could collapse and cause harm to its inhabitants. Everything else is a matter of personal taste, and no one human on here has "better taste" than another.
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Old February 18th, 2014, 11:10 PM   #2544
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Originally Posted by Hed_Kandi View Post
Actually I made sure of this when posting. It is built on the original site yet it has a new design, hence making it a new build instead of a re build.

Original Design:



Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bibi-Heybat_Mosque
Yes, but after 1911 it was expanded and got nearly the same shape and style as the modern one rebuilt in 90th.
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Old February 18th, 2014, 11:17 PM   #2545
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Hi there "anoldblackmarble". I am a Turkish/American architect, located in Los Angeles. I guarantee you that most of those buildings in Baku are way out of proportion. Blue glass, golden window frames, molten precast "traditional ornaments" on cheap concrete-brick structure... Seriously? First of all, using modern techniques to build "historical" buildings is a hard thing to do. If you don't have enough budget or skilled architects, artists, and engineers, you are most likely going to screw it up as they did in Baku. Most of those examples in Baku are very Disneyland-ish and so far from being architecturally successful. They don't even represent Caucasian/Azerbaijani culture. Paris wannabe buildings are not going to make Baku appear as a World class city. I love Baku. It is a gorgeous city with gorgeous people but Paris-mania is way out of hand over there. The most successful examples are mostly in Germany and in Lebanon. I advise you to check them out. Especially Berlin post-WW2 reconstructed buildings are amazing.

BTW, there is a thing called "correct architectural aesthetic". I suggest you to check the book called "De architectura". It's written by Vitruvius. It is the first architecture book ever written and it is basically the constitution of architecture. There, you will find 3 basic principals of architecture. Firmitas, utilitas and venustas which means, functionality, strength and beauty. Of course beauty is in the eye of the beholder, however there are certain standards and generally accepted features. You can't build something that looks proportionally and materially awkward and call it beautiful because it looks nice to your eyes.
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Old February 18th, 2014, 11:34 PM   #2546
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Old February 18th, 2014, 11:47 PM   #2547
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I am curious as to how applicable these tenets of Vitruvius' doctrine are to non western styles of architecture? Do these principles also mandate the Moorish Riads of Morocco or the pagodas of Southern China or the Jain temples of India?
I think yes for The Moorish architecture, Because everything is done by craftsman's hands and old materials...

For more info, Check this video :





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Old February 18th, 2014, 11:54 PM   #2548
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I am curious as to how applicable these tenets of Vitruvius' doctrine are to non western styles of architecture? Do these principles also mandate the Moorish Riads of Morocco or the pagodas of Southern China or the Jain temples of India?
Those principles don't mandate anything to anyone. However, they are the very very basic, universally accepted principles that all architects should follow. Regardless of architectural style, all buildings should stand and not collapse on people, serve a purpose, function well for the purpose and must be aesthetically satisfying for people of that culture.

Building Parisian buildings in Baku is like building Chinese temples in London. It is not fitting for the culture. It is aesthetically not satisfying for the culture. There is no escape. Regardless of how much they try, those Parisian buildings will look kitsch, even if they build them out of 500 years old stone blocks because that type of architecture is not the invention of Azerbaijani people.

I believe this example is gonna be right on spot.

China built this town. Can you believe it? It is in China. They copied an Austrian town, even the street pavements. The result is disgusting and it is a huge insult for Chinese people. They have an amazing culture and they don't need to copy other cultures.

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Old February 19th, 2014, 12:11 AM   #2549
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You can't compare China building Austrian buildings with Azerbaijan building 'European' 18th century style buildings.

Azerbaijan has some ties with Europe and I believe there already were some buildings in this style in Baku.

Further, (and this is how I see it) I think the countries in the Caucasusmountains are trying to find their place in the world. They're at the meetingpoint of the Middle East, Russia and Europe. And though Armenia, Georgia and Azerbaijan have a culture, identity and ancient history of their own they are searching for the bigger picture in wich they fit.

Like the countries in Europe have all a specific culture and identity, they all share their European culture in some ways. The Caucasian countries are not to be put in a clear cultural 'sphere'. With building these European style buildings they are giving the country a small grasp of Europeanism (is that even a word? ) The future will tell us in wich sphere they will eventually end up.
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Old February 19th, 2014, 12:11 AM   #2550
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Old February 19th, 2014, 12:33 AM   #2551
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How truly applicable are these principles? Does a building have to follow these classical orders in order to be considered aesthetically satisfying? Take for example Frank Gehry's Marqués de Riscal Vineyard Hotel. It has anything but 'order' as Gehry's work is often classified as deconstructivist. Any yet it can still be seen as a beautiful structure. Why then do we have these principles and of what purpose do they serve?
They are truly applicable to any building. For instance the building you posted has strength. It doesn't collapse. It serves a function, as a hotel and it is aesthetically accepted by the western society. It sure is a unique style but it is not like building a Taj Mahal in Stockholm. Such contemporary designs are universal and can be seen anywhere in the world because they do not hold any cultural background within themselves. This is something the world has not experienced before. The world started its globalization together with the industrialization era and architecture is a global "thing" now.
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Old February 19th, 2014, 12:49 AM   #2552
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Old February 19th, 2014, 01:29 AM   #2553
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Vitruvius' principles apply directly only to classicist architecture of course. This is an architectural style with a very consistent set of formal rapports, so respecting the codes is vital. Other styles such many non-European styles, gothic, art nouveau, avantgarde etc. have focused on different formal rapports, different ornamental shapes etc, so Vitruvius' principles apply in spirit, in their most general aspects, but not in the practical, detailed aspects.

However if you dwell into a historical style you need to do it well, instead of making unsuccessful, kitsch pastiche. Styles evolve indeed but making deformed hausmannian isn't evolution, evolution is only at the end of a truly creative processs.

I don't know how well inserted are the Paris-style buildings in Baky but I also seem to remember that there are original 19th century Parisian style buildings so it probably makes sense to have the new ones.
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Old February 19th, 2014, 02:20 AM   #2554
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I'm sorry dude but your being a bit of a whacko. First of all this is Viennese architecture at its best. In Vienna they have a long tradition of this architecture so they will stick to it, even if it is expensive. Second, Baku and the rest of the word is not Vienna. We also don't live in the 19th century. Modern construction techniques are cheaper and faster thus more cost effective in Baku and other places. Plus there is also the concept of EVOLUTION. Are you really asking the whole world to get stuck in the 19th century because the "proportions" of their architecture appeal you YOUR EYE? Like a dictator you are IMPOSING YOUR WILL on others because of your personal preferences. What you call "proper proportions" is simply your own personal habituation. You grew up with that style and when you first noticed it at 10 11yrs old it left an "impression" in your mind. You really liked it so to this day you think it is the best. Great! It is the best for you, but not all of us grew up with the same influence, so we like other things. There is nothing wrong with "evolving" architecture and adding modern elements to 19th century styles. It's just the way the world works, things change over time. You are perfectly free to live in a 19th century neighborhood if that is what you like, but stop bashing others for having different preferences than you. And that is what this is, PERSONAL PREFERENCE, and your attempt at justifying YOUR PREFERENCE as some sort of "mathematically quantifiable esthetic" that is superior, is pure bullshit. The human mind is molded by "habit". Your personal esthetic perceptions are the end result of your "habitual experience" of the neighborhood you grew up in, and trying to pretend that that gives you an elite right to judge others is nonsense.

You have every right not to like whatever you don't, but there is no such thing as "correct architectural esthetic". If we are talking about engineering, different story, but when it comes to "art" it really is in the eye of the beholder. I don't like all the examples posted on here either, but so what, it is mostly personal preference. The only architecture that is "WRONG" is poorly engineered structures that could collapse and cause harm to its inhabitants. Everything else is a matter of personal taste, and no one human on here has "better taste" than another.

Sorry, but you could not be more wrong.

What is being built in Baku is not an evolution of classical architecture; it is a bunch of amateur architects that are adorning the facades of their buildings with a bunch of columns, pilasters and various mouldings without a proper understanding of the language of classical architecture. Classical architecture is a language, and just like a spoken language, if you misplace words, punctuation, etc. it becomes difficult to understand. Looking at the various works coming out of Baku, I see caricatures of classical architecture. It is important to not repeat the 19th century architecture and naturally evolve traditional architecture to the modern world, but to do this an architect has to have a firm grasp on the basic grammar of classical architecture.

Modern construction has made this more difficult because modern construction is lighter in weight than traditional masonry construction. If you study the details of classical architecture, especially how the components align with each other, you will see that the desired effect is the perception of stability and strength. Notice how the face of the entablature aligns with the face of the pilasters below, or if columns are used is tangent to the shaft of the columns. The plinth of the column is in alignment with width of the pedestal below. These alignments are the same regardless of whether it is the front face of the pilasters or columns or the sides returning into the wall. When the entablature or pedestal projects beyond the face of the pilasters or column shafts, sometimes extending over the edge of the pilaster or column capitals, the effect is that the entablature appears too heavy, or the columns appear insufficient to support the entablature. If the face of the entablature is too far back, then it gives the appearance of the structure above not fully bearing on the column. In either case the visual effect is undesirable.

If traditional masonry construction were used for these designs, they would likely fail structurally, but with modern construction it is possible to construct a lightweight metal frame and clad it with a thin layer of stucco at a fraction of the weight of solid masonry. The visual effect is still of solid masonry, and when not properly aligned with what is below, gives the uncomfortable impression that the building is not structurally sound.

Similarly, when arches are used in traditional masonry construction there is a horizontal force that must be resisted to prevent the arch from collapsing. When arches are grouped together in a series, such as at an arcade, the thrust of one arch counters the thrust of the adjacent arch creating equilibrium. When it comes to corners, the arches must be located far enough away so that there is a sufficient amount of masonry to buttress the arch's thrust. Brick veneer does not have the horizontal thrust that traditional masonry has so it is easy for the amateur architect to place the arched opening too close to the corner, creating another uncomfortable looking building.

When you study classical architecture further, you will see that there is always a desire to add the appearance of strength to corners similar to what I've described with masonry arches. If you notice a building with square head windows will still have a slightly larger corner pier than the other piers separating the windows. A portico may have a pair of columns or a solid pier to give that appearance of strength.

Now let's discuss proportions. The easiest way to think about proportions is to consider the human body. If you were a sculpture and you were commissioned to erect a stature of a human figure that is twice life size, that means that the head has to be twice life size, the arms have to be twice life size, etc. If you make the body twice life size and the head three times life size, the statue would look strange and out of proportion. The classical orders have been around for 2500 years, and so proportions such as the column shaft base diameter to height, or the column height to entablature height, etc. have been well established enough that there is an expected proportion that is sought.

Classical architecture is the easiest to learn because it has been written about so extensively, going all the way back to Vitruvius' 10 Books on Architecture. But what about other styles such as Romanesque, Gothic, Moorish, etc.? The best answer is to apply the rules of proportion to the design and consider the design as if it were built of traditional construction. Avoid creating something that looks like it is unstable and could only be built with modern construction techniques.

I will post some additional information on classical architecture because I believe it is important for us to collectively re-learn this language of architecture so that we can build beautiful buildings once again, and so that we have the same standard to evaluate future posts to this thread.
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Old February 19th, 2014, 02:31 AM   #2555
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Jackson Ward Townhouses, Richmond VA (2005)

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Old February 19th, 2014, 02:37 AM   #2556
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Building Parisian buildings in Baku is like building Chinese temples in London. It is not fitting for the culture. It is aesthetically not satisfying for the culture. There is no escape. Regardless of how much they try, those Parisian buildings will look kitsch, even if they build them out of 500 years old stone blocks because that type of architecture is not the invention of Azerbaijani people.[/IMG]
You are mixing Baku with some Middle-Eastern or Far-Eastern cities, aren't you? Now you say Baku has its own culture and identity, then let me reming you than European architecture, including hundred years old Parisian style buildings, along with UNESCO World heritage site Icherisheher, is actual identity of the city.

In fact, Baku has the biggest number of these types of historical buildings in the whole Middle-East, Caucasus and Central Asia or among the cities in the majority muslim countries in the world. True is that there are streets with hundreds, perhaps thousands of them thorough downtown Baku.

Comparing Baku with that 'Austrian architecture in Chinese village' case is ridiculous and ignorant to a history of Baku and its true identity.
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Old February 19th, 2014, 04:20 AM   #2557
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Townhouse in Campo de Ourique - Lisbon, Portugal (Built 2004)






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Old February 19th, 2014, 04:31 AM   #2558
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House in Quinta da Pedra Taboleira - Nelas, Viseu - Portugal (Built 1999)









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Old February 19th, 2014, 05:42 AM   #2559
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Putrajaya Mosque, Greater Kuala Lumpur

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Old February 19th, 2014, 06:42 PM   #2560
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That project in Lisbon seems more a like an old restored building, not a new building.
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