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Old December 24th, 2009, 09:37 PM   #101
Rail_Serbia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan78 View Post
Is there some anti-Metro (or broader anti-rail) contingent in the U.K. outside of London? A lot of continental European cities with populations smaller than Manchester, Birmingham, Sheffield and Leeds have metros or systems that might as well be metros (Dusseldorf, Duisburg, Bohcum, most Rhineland cities in Germany). Is there some odd aversion to underground construction? Pretty strange, coming from the country that gave us the Underground in the first place. Manchester, especially, seems it would be better served by an underground line, as does Liverpool from what I've seen.

Also, I thought I saw an article somewhere about a possible "east side" extension of the Glasgow subway. Is anything still going on with this? I thought that Manchester and Liverpool had existing tunnels that were going to be converted to light rail use? Has this plan been scuttled? Or maybe I was misinformed.

Based on recent construction news, the U.K. seems to think that street-running tramways are the only feasible way to go for rail public transport in it's cities (excepting Leeds, which gets nothing). Of course, this is better than most of North American cities, which get infrequent bus service or nothing at all.

Here in the U.S., we seem to have a problem with everything being done on the cheap; cities that should have metros get tram networks or a streetcar or monorail circulator, those that should have tram networks get "BRT", and at the bottom of the barrel those that should have buses get nothing. We also have a culture that is at best lukewarm and at worst hostile to all public transit. So our politicians build inadequate systems because they can do it for a lower cost than a metro. For example, Seattle (pop. 580,000) recently got a one-line light rail metro, a city of it's size and density should have got a full metro system like Atlanta or Baltimore.

Maybe it's a cultural issue... Europeans seem more willing to invest in public transport than Americans, Canadians and Britons.
What people expect from the public transport?
- Reliability
- High speed (compared with car or walk)
- Dense network (from evrywhere to evrywhere)
- Cheapness (more important where people are poor)
- Comfort (more importante where people are rich)
...
There are more factors, but look those systems through the those 5. If Manchester, or Seattle, or any big city with developed car culture builds subway, it would spend a lot of money for system with low ridership. It isn`t same like in Turkish or China cities with bus culture, (or former USSR cities with developed tramway and trolleybus) and rail systems have high ridership for the begining of exploatation.

It is good strategy to build first tramway, and make wide network, and then build tunnel sections. The most of cities in Germany made LRT like next level of quality of tramway.

Dallas now have only 77km of network with 39 stops, with only 1 undergroun station. See:
http://www.urbanrail.net/am/dall/dallas.htm
But, they want to build new downtown underground section for 3rd and 4th line.
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Old December 27th, 2009, 02:09 AM   #102
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When you see a tram in Manchester don't think 'street-running tramway' 80% of it isn't. The pieces that are street running are the city centre and areas of the eccles line(they could increase speeds if they wanted to). Most of it runs on old railway lines at Metro speeds. Also don't forget, there is the standard network rail system as-well. This runs at speeds of between 70 or 125mph depending on where your heading for. Bolton, Stockport, Rochdale, Ashton Under-Lyne, etc
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Old December 27th, 2009, 07:40 AM   #103
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Are there any plans to extend the rails in the Inner City area? With all the extensions planned, it seems there will be a queue of trams on Cornbrook - Mosely Str - Victoria...
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Old December 27th, 2009, 04:10 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chusanch View Post
Are there any plans to extend the rails in the Inner City area? With all the extensions planned, it seems there will be a queue of trams on Cornbrook - Mosely Str - Victoria...
There's plans for a second city crossing.
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Old December 27th, 2009, 06:12 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chusanch View Post
Are there any plans to extend the rails in the Inner City area? With all the extensions planned, it seems there will be a queue of trams on Cornbrook - Mosely Str - Victoria...
The second city crossing is to deviate from the existing line down Mount Street, Cross Street and Corporation Street to join the existing line at Victoria, with two new stations at Albert Square and somewhere near the Royal Exchange. The existing viaduct which brings the track down to street level is to be widened to three tracks to support this development. The viaduct from Cornbrook to GMex can take many more services than currently use it, or will when the line of sight running is introduced and combined with the new cross city line will allow a greater number of services reliable access to the city centre.
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Old December 29th, 2009, 08:04 PM   #106
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Thanks for the info. That way, it looks as Mosely St will not be collapsed with trams waiting to load and unload.
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Old December 31st, 2009, 08:24 PM   #107
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New pictures taken today (31/12/09)

Many more pictures posted today on the Metrolink threads within the Manchester part of SSC

[IMG]http://i45.************/2iji87d.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i45.************/2hwdw03.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i46.************/2cnjo0g.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i50.************/2wrl0lk.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i48.************/a0egz.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i45.************/1gizpf.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i45.************/rhtw68.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i46.************/20ptqv5.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i49.************/33w40pe.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i49.************/30ro0hj.jpg[/IMG]
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Old January 9th, 2010, 06:54 PM   #108
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I have found these photographs of the first new tram being delivered last year, and the official first day of operation of new trams..

http://www.lrta.org/Manchester/mpgs/m5000/index.html
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Old January 14th, 2010, 12:14 PM   #109
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Design of this trams are wierd ugly compared to other European cityes older models looks better i think,but the system is very good i guess that for people is more important that is run well...
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Old January 14th, 2010, 12:29 PM   #110
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I think they're the same ones Adelaide uses.

Adelaide:



image hosted on flickr


They're ok. Hardly anything special.
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Old January 14th, 2010, 02:44 PM   #111
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The new Manchester Trams are part of the Bombardier Flexity Swift family. This is a large family with big exterior differences, but the Manchester version is the same as the Cologne K5000.
Adelaide has Flexity Classic, also from Bombardier, but not the same model.
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Old January 15th, 2010, 12:50 AM   #112
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As said, the M5000 trams are closest to Cologne's K5000.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dexmex View Post
Design of this trams are wierd ugly compared to other European cityes older models looks better i think,but the system is very good i guess that for people is more important that is run well...
It's true, they're not going to win any beauty contests. But considering Manchester's tram system already suffers bad overcrowding from demand which could well get worse with expansion, I'd rather they paid for cheaper but tried and tested reliable trams and hence get more trams for their money than just a couple of swanky ones.

As you say, this whole expansion is a chance to get the system working to an international standard and more frequent, longer trams is a part of that.
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Old January 15th, 2010, 03:13 AM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dexmex View Post
Design of this trams are wierd ugly compared to other European cityes older models looks better i think,but the system is very good i guess that for people is more important that is run well...
manchesters new trams look great.

these are weird and ugly:
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Old January 15th, 2010, 10:52 AM   #114
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I love those trams, they're interesting and well designed. The new Manchester ones are just average. Nothing good, nothing bad, just generic and standard.

Still, as mentioned earlier, Manchester should concentrate on getting its transport network up to a world standard first and then they can start thinking about spending more money on trams with better aesthetics.
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Old January 16th, 2010, 07:48 PM   #115
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I rode our new Manchester trams on the first day of operation..and I love them..granted the old trams are ugly and very unreliable, but the new ones are great.
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Old January 17th, 2010, 10:21 PM   #116
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Metrolink trams have to contend with the fact that its platforms are the height of British Rail ones. This rules the vehicles out as being anywhere near as sleek as the low floor trams that we see in many european cities.
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Old January 18th, 2010, 03:40 AM   #117
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Indeed, presumably this was done as a cost-cutting measure to avoid rebuilding stations on the original Bury and Altrincham lines. Ironically it's probably becoming more of a false economy as the system expands/
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Old January 18th, 2010, 06:30 PM   #118
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Quote:
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Indeed, presumably this was done as a cost-cutting measure to avoid rebuilding stations on the original Bury and Altrincham lines. Ironically it's probably becoming more of a false economy as the system expands/
I've wondered about this. Presumably there's little difference in platform construction costs, but do high floor trams cost more to purchase?

The good thing about having a high floor system is that Metrolink can consider expansions using NR infrastructure through tram-trains. GMPTE have looked at quite a few routes that could be converted relatively easilly so Metrolink is able to reach many of those parts of the city it currently is unable to. However it's now a case of waiting to see if the Sheffield trial is a success before those plans can be progressed.
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Old January 19th, 2010, 12:41 AM   #119
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Judging the fact that some German cities are expanding there high-floor network, sometimes even at the cost of their "traditional" tram network (Stuttgart), I reckon that the financial aspect isn't a great factor.
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Old January 24th, 2010, 09:39 AM   #120
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High floor trams are cheaper than low floor trams as they have simpler engineering, yes a lot of german citys are switching to high floor to provide compatability with traditional rail networks for tram-train interoperability.

Most of the underway and planned expansions are conversions of rail lines so its still value for money at the moment, High platforms do cost about 5-10 times low platforms but its one initial cost that last decades.
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