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Old February 10th, 2010, 09:07 PM   #141
WingTips
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkO View Post
Couple of nice short videos of the new trams in service - clock the weather too!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WaD65nE7xE

Here in the only section that looks vaguely 'underground' (it's actually under Piccadilly mainline station)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9L2whXJrw54

And here at Victoria:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0o1MPMfc9nE

Enjoy
:-)
The new trams are amazing...real head turners too....when I travel on one passengers are talking about them and there is quite a sense of excitement
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Old March 8th, 2010, 06:13 PM   #142
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Didnt relise that this thread was merged with the older one. Anyway, here is some news for those who are interested.

Introductuction of new trams continues

The first Bombardier M5000 tram was delivered last June and they began taking passengers in December. So far 11 have been delivered and at least 6 are in day to day service.

image hosted on flickr

the new trams travel 1000 miles from Austria to Manchester by road (obviously via a ship)

image hosted on flickr

they are becoming a common site in the city

image hosted on flickr

Which makes the old ones look even worse...

The old trams will be refurbished and repainted at some point but it will take five years to do the full set.

The new lines are progressing well and are reportedly on time

the media city line (ok, its only one stop!) was connected to the network yesterday






work to convert the Olham line from a prety clapped out heavy rail line is ongoing, Due to open in 2013

The East Manchester line is the line which has the largest amount of visable progress so far

the line will emerge from Picadilly station under the white beams


trams will emerge from an underpass between the concrete walls


In Clayton, a few miles from the city centre track laying is progressing well.

Meanwhile on the southmanchester/airport/ didsbury line work is also progressing well.

the new depot will begain to take trams in the summer


the complicated junction between the alrincham line is complete


ballast laying recently began


to make space for the chorlton stop, a small amount of supermarket car park has been recovered. the foundation for the southbound platform is on the right hand side of the photo


this is the firswood stop

Today the government gave the final authorisation to allow for the airport, east didsbury and ashton lines to be built.

image hosted on flickr

that is, the dotted lines on this map (the solid brown lines are under construction)


Publicity Photo

Preparation work on the next set of new lines will begin preaty much immediately and will be done in conjunction with detailed design work. Real construction work will begin sometime late next year.

And remember, you can keep up to date with all the latest news here

Last edited by future.architect; March 8th, 2010 at 06:30 PM.
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Old March 8th, 2010, 06:45 PM   #143
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That last photo is brilliant
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Old March 8th, 2010, 06:46 PM   #144
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Thanks for that comprehensive summary of the current state of play, future.a! Much appreciated
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Old March 9th, 2010, 12:35 PM   #145
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Greater Manchester is now on course for having the UK's largest modern light-rail system - not just pipedreams but as you can see from the excellent photo's above it's actually being built right now. Its difficult to underestimate what a huge shift this is for the UK: a country where despite its relative wealth, provincial public transit virtually fell off the agenda for decades on end.

With a pretty big suburban commuter rail network already in place (90 stations), and public transport smartcards on the horizon, this will give the Manchester city region the best provision of rail-based services outside the capital: a position it rightly deserves being the 2nd/3rd biggest conurbation in the UK.

Let's hope the likely success of the new Metrolink enlightens future UK Governments (which have so far restricted/reneged on light rail expansion for the other big British conurbations) so that the West Midlands, West Yorks and Merseyside etc can properly catch up.
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Old March 9th, 2010, 12:55 PM   #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkO View Post
Greater Manchester is now on course for having the UK's largest modern light-rail system - not just pipedreams but as you can see from the excellent photo's above it's actually being built right now. Its difficult to underestimate what a huge shift this is for the UK: a country where despite its relative wealth, provincial public transit virtually fell off the agenda for decades on end.

With a pretty big suburban commuter rail network already in place (90 stations), and public transport smartcards on the horizon, this will give the Manchester city region the best provision of rail-based services outside the capital: a position it rightly deserves being the 2nd/3rd biggest conurbation in the UK.

Let's hope the likely success of the new Metrolink enlightens future UK Governments (which have so far restricted/reneged on light rail expansion for the other big British conurbations) so that the West Midlands, West Yorks and Merseyside etc can properly catch up.
To be honest transport provision in Britain isn't that bad. There have been quite a few projects here and there over the past few decades like the Victoria Line, DLR and Jubilee eastern extension, Croydon Tramlink, Manchester Metrolink, Sheffield Supertram, Tyne and Wear Metro, the West Midlands tramlink and Nottingham's NET. Liverpool Merseyrail and Glasgow Subway are both decent rail systems, albeit a little old.

There's probably some truth in saying that the Britons don't boast, or simply that media attention hasn't been there like it's been elsewhere. For example I'd bet many more people would be aware of Nantes' guided trolleybus system than Nottingham's NET.
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Old March 9th, 2010, 03:36 PM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NCT View Post
To be honest transport provision in Britain isn't that bad. There have been quite a few projects here and there over the past few decades like the Victoria Line, DLR and Jubilee eastern extension, Croydon Tramlink, Manchester Metrolink, Sheffield Supertram, Tyne and Wear Metro, the West Midlands tramlink and Nottingham's NET. Liverpool Merseyrail and Glasgow Subway are both decent rail systems, albeit a little old.
Good summary of what UK has got NCT - and yes in comparison to Ireland or Poland or Greece, yes urban rail in the UK is better - but we're talking about one of the richest countries in the world here and Britain has just simply invested FAR less than it should have done for a country of its wealth and population (I'm talking OUTSIDE London here NCT, London has decent provision and so it should, I'm simply arguing the case for the provincial ie not Capital cities).

Lets take a closer look at provincial Britain:
Glasgow: One line of Underground opened 1896 and never extended. Tram plans cancelled
Merseyside: underground loop for mainline trains opened 1977. Tram plans cancelled
Sheffield, West Midlands, Nottingham: small tram systems, only short extensions been agreed/funded
Leeds, Bristol, South Hants and others: Tram plans cancelled

Shining beacons above all others:
Newcastle: "light" Metro opened 1980 and extended several times. (But tram plans cancelled)
Manchester: Several full Metro schemes dropped BUT medium-sized tram system in operation and much more under construction/funded

However in the context of the other main Europe countries (I can't even begin to make this comparison with provincial cities in Asia or even America these days because its just too time consuming not to mention embarrassing for Britain :-()

Provincial Spain:
Full Metros: Barcelona, Bilbao, Valencia, Seville, Palma
Trams: Alicante, Barcelona, Bilbao, Cádiz, Donostia, Granada, Málaga, Murcia, Parla, Sevilla, Sóller, Tenerife, Valencia, Vélez-Málaga, Vitoria-Gasteiz, Zaragoza

Provincial France:
Full Metros/VALs: Marseilles, Lyon, Lille, Rennes, Toulouse,
Trams; Grenoble, Bordeaux, Nice, Rouen, Mulhouse, Strasbourg, Angers, caen, Clement-ferrand, Le Mans, Lyon, Nancy, Nantes, Orleans, Riems, St Ettienne, Valenciennes, Toulon

Provincial Italy:
Full metro's: Naples, Milan, Turin, Genova, Catania
Trams: Bergamo, Cagliari, Florence, Genoa, Messina, Milan, Naples, Padua, Palermo, Parma, Sassari, Trieste, Turin

Provincial Germany
Full metro's: Munich, Frankfurt, Hamburg, Bielfeld, Bochum, Bonn, Cologne, Duisberg, Dortmund, Dusseldorf, Essen, Hannover, Stuttgart, Nurnberg, Wuppertal
Trams: Augsburg, Bochum, Bonn, Brandenburg/Havel, Braunschweig, Bremen, Chemnitz, Cottbus, Darmstadt, Dessau, Dortmund, Dresden, Duisburg, Düsseldorf, Erfurt, Essen, Frankfurt (Main), Frankfurt (Oder), Freiburg, Gelsenkirchen, Gera, Görlitz, Gotha, Halberstadt, Halle (Saale), Heidelberg, Heilbronn, Jena, Karlsruhe, Kassel, Krefeld, Leipzig, Ludwigshafen, Magdeburg, Mainz, Mannheim, Mülheim (Ruhr), Munich, Naumburg, Nordhausen, Nuremberg, Oberhausen, Plauen, Potsdam, Rostock, Saarbrücken, Schöneiche-Rüdersdorf, Schwerin, Strausberg, Ulm, Woltersdorf, Würzburg, Zwickau

Now the UK list to compare in the same manner:

Provincial Scotland
Full metro's: Glasgow
Trams: None

Provincial Wales:
Full metros: None
Trams: None

Provincial England:
Full metro's: None
Light Metro: Newcastle
Trams: Manchester, Sheffield, Birmingham, Nottingham

Even taking on board all the differences in funding, urbanization, the attitude to public transport, historical reasoning, european contributions etc etc etc...you just cannot look at the facts above and say there is really any excuse for Britain having fallen so far behind in provincial urban transit.

Thats my argument really!! Not much we can do about it, just lamenting the situation (pretty much the same argument could be made about Hi-Speed rail), and am hoping, hoping, hoping the Manchester Metrolink experience will finally get governments and the Treasury etc to turn around and commit to more long term investments outside the capital!

Last edited by MarkO; March 9th, 2010 at 03:38 PM. Reason: typo
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Old March 9th, 2010, 03:45 PM   #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkO View Post
Good summary of what UK has got NCT - and yes in comparison to Ireland or Poland or Greece, yes urban rail in the UK is better - but we're talking about one of the richest countries in the world here and Britain has just simply invested FAR less than it should have done for a country of its wealth and population (I'm talking OUTSIDE London here NCT, London has decent provision and so it should, I'm simply arguing the case for the provincial ie not Capital cities).

Lets take a closer look at provincial Britain:
Glasgow: One line of Underground opened 1896 and never extended. Tram plans cancelled
Merseyside: underground loop for mainline trains opened 1977. Tram plans cancelled
Sheffield, West Midlands, Nottingham: small tram systems, only short extensions been agreed/funded
Leeds, Bristol, South Hants and others: Tram plans cancelled

Shining beacons above all others:
Newcastle: "light" Metro opened 1980 and extended several times. (But tram plans cancelled)
Manchester: Several full Metro schemes dropped BUT medium-sized tram system in operation and much more under construction/funded

However in the context of the other main Europe countries (I can't even begin to make this comparison with provincial cities in Asia or even America these days because its just too time consuming not to mention embarrassing for Britain :-()

Provincial Spain:
Full Metros: Barcelona, Bilbao, Valencia, Seville, Palma
Trams: Alicante, Barcelona, Bilbao, Cádiz, Donostia, Granada, Málaga, Murcia, Parla, Sevilla, Sóller, Tenerife, Valencia, Vélez-Málaga, Vitoria-Gasteiz, Zaragoza

Provincial France:
Full Metros/VALs: Marseilles, Lyon, Lille, Rennes, Toulouse,
Trams; Grenoble, Bordeaux, Nice, Rouen, Mulhouse, Strasbourg, Angers, caen, Clement-ferrand, Le Mans, Lyon, Nancy, Nantes, Orleans, Riems, St Ettienne, Valenciennes, Toulon

Provincial Italy:
Full metro's: Rome, Naples, Milan, Turin, Genova, Catania
Trams: Bergamo, Cagliari, Florence, Genoa, Messina, Milan, Naples, Padua, Palermo, Parma, Sassari, Trieste, Turin

Provincial Germany
Full metro's: Munich, Frankfurt, Hamburg, Bielfeld, Bochum, Bonn, Cologne, Duisberg, Dortmund, Dusseldorf, Essen, Hannover, Stuttgart, Nurnberg, Wuppertal
Trams: Augsburg, Bochum, Bonn, Brandenburg/Havel, Braunschweig, Bremen, Chemnitz, Cottbus, Darmstadt, Dessau, Dortmund, Dresden, Duisburg, Düsseldorf, Erfurt, Essen, Frankfurt (Main), Frankfurt (Oder), Freiburg, Gelsenkirchen, Gera, Görlitz, Gotha, Halberstadt, Halle (Saale), Heidelberg, Heilbronn, Jena, Karlsruhe, Kassel, Krefeld, Leipzig, Ludwigshafen, Magdeburg, Mainz, Mannheim, Mülheim (Ruhr), Munich, Naumburg, Nordhausen, Nuremberg, Oberhausen, Plauen, Potsdam, Rostock, Saarbrücken, Schöneiche-Rüdersdorf, Schwerin, Strausberg, Ulm, Woltersdorf, Würzburg, Zwickau

Now the UK list to compare in the same manner:

Provincial Scotland
Full metro's: Glasgow
Trams: None

Provincial Wales:
Full metros: None
Trams: None

Provincial England:
Full metro's: None
Light Metro: Newcastle
Trams: Manchester, Sheffield, Birmingham, Nottingham

Even taking on board all the differences in funding, urbanization, the attitude to public transport, historical reasoning, european contributions etc etc etc...you just cannot look at the facts above and say there is really any excuse for Britain having fallen so far behind in provincial urban transit.

Thats my argument really!! Not much we can do about it, just lamenting the situation (pretty much the same argument could be made about Hi-Speed rail), and am hoping, hoping, hoping the Manchester Metrolink experience will finally get governments and the Treasury etc to turn around and commit to more long term investments outside the capital!
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Old March 9th, 2010, 05:24 PM   #149
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Well done Mark. Really excellent comparison and just goes to show how under-funded 'modern' transport has been in the UK and how quickly other cities in Europe have developed theirs.
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Old March 9th, 2010, 07:45 PM   #150
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w3deco: I know Rome has a Metro !!

But unless it has been demoted, then as far as I know it is the CAPITAL CITY of Italy and therefore as this article was deliberately NOT about capital cities I deliberately left it out! (You'll notice on close inspection that there is no Madrid, Berlin, London or Paris: the argument being that Capital Cities almost always have decent levels of investment in public transport so they do not make a good comparison to provincial cities) :-)

Hope that's clear, wasn't being dim or malicious!! :-)

PS Cheers SeasonedB, nice to have feedback when we spend time compiling these things! :-)

Last edited by MarkO; March 9th, 2010 at 07:43 PM. Reason: typos
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Old March 9th, 2010, 08:20 PM   #151
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I'm sorry, I had not read all the text ...
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Old March 9th, 2010, 08:41 PM   #152
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Agree with the general sentiments expressed by MarkO. Transport has been neglected in the last a few decades but it does seem as though things are turning around. The ambitious extension plans of the Manchester Metrolink is certainly welcome and there's some certainly that the next two lines of the NET will go ahead.

Might I just point out however that although commuter rail scores almost appaulingly on the frequency front, discounting them completely might be a tad unfair as coverage in places (Liverpool and Manchester for example) is actually pretty good? This could be one of the factors contributing to the lack of projects in the past as there's already something (just not very good) 'there'?
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Old March 10th, 2010, 02:30 AM   #153
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Good point NCT: Heavy suburban commuter rail is indeed pretty practical in the cities you mention, plus I believe also in Glasgow and the West Midlands too.

BUT having said that it just isnt adequate/widespread enough to tempt the numbers we need out of their cars. 'Cercanias' in Spanish cities, S-bahn in Germany and RER in Paris are comparable (usually better, sorry!) than UK suburban commuter routes.

The fact is (and remember I'm a Brit who cares passionately about improving UK public transport), Britain has regrettably (wrongly, IMHO) pushed rail-based transit to the bottom of the public-funded agenda since WW2/Beeching/Thatcher/etc.

My argument is that a few million pounds of public investment - as has been shown in Greater Manchester - could at least START to redress the balance of years of neglect.

We don't need to dwell on the money given to the banks last year and all that brings up, but a few wise, choice, long-term investments in some decent urban rail-based transport provision in the Uk (outside London) would've made a HUGE and perceptible difference to day-to-day life in Britain...and we're never too late to redress that balance.

The great thing is that the juggernaut (or investment in roads as opposed to rails) seems finally to have very slightly changed course: there's an openness to light-rail/tram-trains and other ideas that seem to have dried up in the early Noughties.

We live in eternal hope and can very soon cite Metrolink as an example of where proper investment in LRT has made perceptible reductions in pollution and changes in peoples day-to-day lives!

:-)
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Old March 10th, 2010, 04:17 AM   #154
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I visited Manchester in September and used the Metrolink a few times...it wasn't perfect and I could see where the perception that London has disproportionately better rail transport than the rest of the UK comes from, but it was clean and efficient and even then I could see the vast improvement works being done on it. I look forward to my next chance at using it with the new trains and lines.

On the current discussion, don't forget the tram opening in Edinburgh next year...its proposed future extensions have run into a bunch of funding problems from what I'm reading, but it's definitely being built and that alone is another victory.
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Old March 10th, 2010, 11:45 AM   #155
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Yeah, well said Apoc89

Just for accuracy by the way, had not forgotten Edinburgh (what's happening there is wonderful news too - despite the funding issues, Princess Street has been aching for the return of trams since the day they were so stupidly torn up) but I didn't put it in my list above because of Edinburgh's status as the Capital City of Scotland :-)
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Old March 14th, 2010, 06:23 PM   #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkO View Post
Provincial Germany
Full metro's: Munich, Frankfurt, Hamburg, Bielfeld, Bochum, Bonn, Cologne, Duisberg, Dortmund, Dusseldorf, Essen, Hannover, Stuttgart, Nurnberg, Wuppertal
Hi Mark, most of those are not full metros but trams/LRTs like Manchester's. Only sections of them are underground and/or separated from streets. Only Munich, Hamburg and Nuremberg have genuine full metros besides Berlin. Wuppertal's monorail can count as an above-ground metro, and one line in Frankfurt (U4) is fully separated. But that's it.
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Old March 14th, 2010, 09:03 PM   #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by micro View Post
Hi Mark, most of those are not full metros but trams/LRTs like Manchester's. Only sections of them are underground and/or separated from streets. Only Munich, Hamburg and Nuremberg have genuine full metros besides Berlin. Wuppertal's monorail can count as an above-ground metro, and one line in Frankfurt (U4) is fully separated. But that's it.
And Wuppertal has been closed down completely for safety fears! Not like germany that.
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Old March 15th, 2010, 07:27 AM   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkO View Post

Now the UK list to compare in the same manner:

Provincial Scotland
Full metro's: Glasgow
Trams: None

Provincial Wales:
Full metros: None
Trams: None

Provincial England:
Full metro's: None
Light Metro: Newcastle
Trams: Manchester, Sheffield, Birmingham, Nottingham

Even taking on board all the differences in funding, urbanization, the attitude to public transport, historical reasoning, european contributions etc etc etc...you just cannot look at the facts above and say there is really any excuse for Britain having fallen so far behind in provincial urban transit.

Thats my argument really!! Not much we can do about it, just lamenting the situation (pretty much the same argument could be made about Hi-Speed rail), and am hoping, hoping, hoping the Manchester Metrolink experience will finally get governments and the Treasury etc to turn around and commit to more long term investments outside the capital!

How could you forget Blackpool!!
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Old March 15th, 2010, 07:57 PM   #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackpool88 View Post
How could you forget Blackpool!!
And how can you ignore the role the heavy rail systems play in these cities?

Glasgow, Liverpool, Manchester, Birmingham, Leeds all have extensive and frequent rail services, some as frequent as metros at 5-15 minute intervals (Liverpool, Glasgow Electrics).
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Old March 15th, 2010, 11:03 PM   #160
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How could you forget Blackpool!!
Quite!

And as has just been written, many of the British cities/urban areas have pretty good heavy rail systems, such as that found in Birmingham/West Midlands.

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