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Old March 16th, 2010, 10:45 PM   #161
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Some UK systems that rely heavily on the National Rail network to provide frequent "metro" rails services.

West Yorkshire PTE (Leeds)


source: www.projectmapping.co.uk

Greater Manchester PTE (Manchester)



source: www.emta.com

Merseyside PTE (Liverpool)


source: mappery.com

Strathclyde PTE (Glasgow)


source: strathclyde PTE
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Old March 16th, 2010, 11:34 PM   #162
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Fantastic maps, and a great point. Very similar idea to the systems in Australia (though it seems not underground for the most part?). I like it, and without them the rail network is not really a full picture. When I was living in Wales (Treforest) the local rail system was invaluable to get around, I cannot and could not have lived there without a car without it.

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Old March 17th, 2010, 12:04 AM   #163
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Yup, here's the Cardiff and the Valleys railways:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system...sValleyspm.pdf

Recently re-opened lines: Ebbw Vale and Rhoose. The Ebbw Vale line is planned now to be extended too.
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Old March 17th, 2010, 12:09 AM   #164
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Liverpool even has a couple of real underground stations/railway lines...

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Old March 19th, 2010, 11:45 PM   #165
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A lof of what is on the above maps are long distance commuting stations, or other cities ie. intercity routes.

And many of them have very poor frequencies, and are also shared with other intercity services.
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Old March 20th, 2010, 02:24 AM   #166
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Thanks for the maps but if you dont mind me saying, it seems some of you are slightly missing the point!

Those cities do have very good suburban rail systems yes, but so do most of the other european cities listed.

The point of that original post was that unfortunately most British provincial cities have much less (or no) light rail or metro compared with european provincial cities of a similar size! :-)

Hope that makes it clear now!
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Old March 20th, 2010, 10:24 AM   #167
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Grand new Gmex/deansgate Metrolink interchange station proposed to be operational by 2014, Manchester Central.

Start from around 5:15


Ignore the speaker confusing Oxford Road and Deansgate stations.
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Old March 23rd, 2010, 08:54 PM   #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkO View Post
Thanks for the maps but if you dont mind me saying, it seems some of you are slightly missing the point!

Those cities do have very good suburban rail systems yes, but so do most of the other european cities listed.

The point of that original post was that unfortunately most British provincial cities have much less (or no) light rail or metro compared with european provincial cities of a similar size! :-)

Hope that makes it clear now!
The lack of progress/spending on public transport in the UK has been for two main reasons since WW2. Initially (in the 1950's and 60's) the feeling was very much that public transport was a thing of the past, and that cars (personal transport) were the future. When somebody pointed out that everybody having a car (or two) may not be sustainable to Dr Beeching and co. they would simply make vague comments about people being able to use buses, but these would of course be stuck in the same queue as everybody else's cars. Remember this was the age when motorways were being built and opened every year and people were soaking up American culture, which revolved around the car.

It took less than two decades for it to become painfully apparant to people that there wasn't enough space, or resources, for everybody to travel everywhere by car in the long term. In short, that it simply wasn't sustainable. However, by this stage Thatcher was in power, and it would be fair to say that she was no great fan of public transport. In all these wasted years when Britain's transport system should have been evolving, it fell behind. Decades behind. Things have slowly improved since then (such as Manchester Metrolink and other light rail systems), but we are still not spending as much as so many other countries.

Because Britain is so far behind, it will require a large amount of spending to bring the public transport infrastructure up to date. Government claims there are three ways of doing this:
1. Increase taxes.
2. Cut spending on schools and hospitals.
3. Leave it as it is.
Sadly in recent times the third option is always the one that has been picked. It would be unfair to say there have been no improvements to public transport, but they have been few and far between when compared with countries like Germany.

That in a nutshell is why Britain is so far behind. Hostility towards public transport, followed by a lack of will power to spend the money needed to improve it. Of course, I believe that public transport could have been improved over the last couple of decades without tax rises, or cuts to schools and hospitals, simply because there is so much public sector waste, but successive governments have only seen the three options I listed above.

Perhaps projects like Manchester Metrolink do suggest that better times lie ahead for public transport in Britain, though I fear that this may not be the case. David Cameron has said his priority for government is the NHS, Tony Blair said his priority was education. While I would never like to take away from the huge importance of these sectors, it means that transport often doesn't get a look in. Couple that with the fact that Tony Blair's government had loads of money, and Cameron's (if he wins the election) will have none; the future of public transport in the UK doesn't look that great.

Sorry to be so long winded and pessimistic, but that's just the way I see it.

All the more reason to celebrate what we are getting!

Last edited by harryj79; March 23rd, 2010 at 08:56 PM. Reason: Spelling
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Old March 29th, 2010, 02:46 AM   #169
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That is a good summary indeed, like you say Central Governments since the first world war up until recently have all been pro road or at best lukewarm to public transport.

On the other hand local governments particularly urban ones have seen the clear disadvantages of simply building more roads to keep up with demand and have always been pro public transport. Remember Manchester, Birmingham and Sheffield have been wanting to build Metro or light rail since the 70s with local support and its worth noting actually they did start building initial lines during the pro road Thatcher era (with limited support yes, but still!).

I am however a little confused by your suggestion that Britain can invest in public transport without raising taxes or using money from other services. Forgive me but its a bit like saying 'we can invest in public transport without investing' ?! Britain already has some of the highest rail and bus prices in europe and to make passengers pay significantly more would only have the effect of limiting passenger growth.

Ultimately britain will have to face up and learn to pay for investment in public transport like many places in Europe who pay out of general taxes or local levies as Paris. Or even North America were people can be persuaded to actually vote for higher taxes and levies to pay for investment in new light rail and/or metro extensions.
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Old March 29th, 2010, 02:55 AM   #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkO View Post
Thanks for the maps but if you dont mind me saying, it seems some of you are slightly missing the point!

Those cities do have very good suburban rail systems yes, but so do most of the other european cities listed.

The point of that original post was that unfortunately most British provincial cities have much less (or no) light rail or metro compared with european provincial cities of a similar size! :-)

Hope that makes it clear now!
I completely agree with you MarkiO ! I have to say some people may be confused and has to be said a little envious of your location ! lol!

Indeed many UK cities outside London do have heavy suburban rail lines but to compare them to full Metro or light rail networks would be completely wrong.

Firstly these suburban lines are not fully comprehensive networks covering all or a majority of the cities urban area, and the only city which comes close to this would be Glasgow. Even here though there are gaps and limited connections when compared with other European cities and to class Leeds MetroTrain service as urban rail is frankly complete nonsense (look at the map, how many stations in zone 1, Oh just 1!). Its more regional rail than anything and Leeds more than any other large city has huge areas without any rail based transport.

The other fact is that 'suburban rail' in the UK can be more accurately described as 'commuter rail' doing a reasonable job of getting people into work and back home during the morning and evening peaks, Monday to Friday but these are not 'hop-on hop-off' or 'turn up and go' services. In many cities (even in London actually) frequency can be as low as trains every30mins that is clearly NOT metro !
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Old March 29th, 2010, 05:20 PM   #171
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The good people at Metrolink have decided (at last!) to put some comprehensive information on their website.

http://metrolink.co.uk/futuremetrolink/index.asp

the site contains lots of information about the new lines and other projects. Much of this information was unpublished before now.
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Old March 30th, 2010, 05:39 PM   #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by underdev2 View Post
Ultimately britain will have to face up and learn to pay for investment in public transport like many places in Europe who pay out of general taxes or local levies as Paris. Or even North America were people can be persuaded to actually vote for higher taxes and levies to pay for investment in new light rail and/or metro extensions.
The second phase of the current extension project is being paid for either through regional road funding which has been diverted into Metrolink or through loans which will be repaid through increased local taxes.

Most areas have been unwilling, or with our local governments' very limited tax raising abilities, unable to pursue similar options.
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Old March 31st, 2010, 09:23 PM   #173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by underdev2 View Post

I am however a little confused by your suggestion that Britain can invest in public transport without raising taxes or using money from other services. Forgive me but its a bit like saying 'we can invest in public transport without investing' ?! Britain already has some of the highest rail and bus prices in europe and to make passengers pay significantly more would only have the effect of limiting passenger growth.
Sorry, I should have been clearer. What I meant is that there is so much public sector waste, that I'm sure you could spend far more than we currently do on transport without having to raise taxes. It's not a matter of the government not taxing enough, rather that they are just spending it on some rather daft things. Also, I didn't suggest that we could spend more on public transport without using money from other services, just from other key services such as schools and hospitals.

Of course this may all be irrelevant now, because the government doesn't have much money to spend at all.
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Old April 3rd, 2010, 02:16 PM   #174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WatcherZero View Post
Grand new Gmex/deansgate Metrolink interchange station proposed to be operational by 2014, Manchester Central.
Nice one Watcher - looks pretty impressive (though anyone actually going to Manchester Central from the south would more likely get off the tram at St Peters Sq and walk to the entrance from there, but lets not piss on their fireworks just yet!)

Cheers also to harryj and underdev for "getting it".
Quote:
(look at the map, how many stations in zone 1, Oh just 1!).
Precisely! The idea of using any kind of rail based rapid transit to move about the central area was (with notable exceptions mentioned) completely missing from UK provincial cities until start of the modern light-rail era. Meaning as posters have said, that UK cities have a long way to go to catch up with Euro equivilants.

Just to join in with the optimistic mood of FA etc: I do think what's happening with Metrolink is going to change things. I would not be surprised if a future government having seen the popularity of inner city commuting via tram DOES allow provincial cities more freedom to select LRT as part of the transport solution for their cities.

And the recent progress on the Greater Manchester City Region http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1026943 and the Leeds City Region http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1098261 might well be just what's needed to drive that progress further.

(For those non-UK readers or anyone else that doesn't know the daft history of UK under-investment: one other reason why there is less Metro outside London is that provincial cities and urban conglomerations have had less and less power over their own areas - worse still since the abolition of Met. Counties by Thatch in 86 - so this is the first step back towards region-wide transport powers, a la TfL.)


Lets face it: was the strength of the old PTE's in Tyne/Wear & Merseyside that really pushed thru the Metro/loopline there (effectively the only new sections of underground built in England). I'm pretty hopeful that when the new authorities are up and running (GMCR already established!!) it will let lose a whole flood of possibilities for MCR and LCR that will not just benefit those cities but point the way forward for many other places outside the capital! The worm may have people! Let's rejoice in that at least!!

Last edited by MarkO; April 3rd, 2010 at 02:18 PM. Reason: typos
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Old April 23rd, 2010, 10:18 PM   #175
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Last edited by Johnny de Rivative; April 23rd, 2010 at 11:08 PM.
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Old April 25th, 2010, 06:47 PM   #176
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A photo update. A selection from various posters on the Metrolink construction thread on the Manchester SSC subsection

East Manchester Line



Behind Piccadilly railway station



Looking into the under-croft with a tram hiding in the darkness and rails now emerging



Replacement reversing siding underconstruction at the rear of Piccadilly again.



Ancoats Underpass looking back to the station again.



and the other side towards Ashton



Future site of New Islington station now has rails



Construction behind the city of Manchester station for the Stadium stop

image hosted on flickr


Rails in place on Ashton new road just past Clayton station site


South Manchester line



New depot is nearing completion



The tower in the distance marks the location of the second depot



Rails now in place in Chorlton Towards Manchester



and towards Didsbury



Chorlton station under construction



St Werburghs Road station site

The North Manchester line AKA the Oldham line extension




The old Oldham Mumps station under demolition

Again much thanks to the various posters and photographers on the Manchester metrolink subsection
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Old May 19th, 2010, 10:31 PM   #177
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Time for an Update

South Manchester Line (Chorlton East Disdsbury and Manchester Airport)
Our journey begins at the temporary end of the line, aka mauldeth road (this is the boundary between the chorton line and the airport and didsbury line, due to all the political messing about they are being built as two separate projects)


looking towards didsbury, we can see that clearance of 40 years of scum has begun in ernest.


under the bridge, near the site of the proposed station, i am sure that this building will house an electrical substation.


beside it are piles of rail, waiting to be instaled


at st werbehughes road, track is being instaled


this is where the new station will be




the crossing for the footpath and cycle lane has been retained


part of the new station


towards manchester


this is how you build a railway


deep in boring surburbia, i am reminded that I am in a great city


at brantingham road, we can see 2 footings for ohle supports. the proximity of these two suggests that this may be where there will be an electrical boundary




looking at these photos, you can see that the ohle foundations are instaled at regular intervals




firswood towards chorlton





work has began on the pre cast concrete lift shafts


towards trafford bar


the work to remodel the kings road bridge is almost complete


2 new trams in the still under construction new depot (the overhead line is not finished or swtiched on)


1st rail vehicle in 20 years? scouseinmanc

East manchester line (Ashton and Droylsden)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny de Rivative View Post
That as well!

Speaking of which, I happened to have another quick shufty round the back of Picc again today, to see how things are coming on :-











The Western tunnel portal under Great Ancoats Street has now appeared :-



And the Eastern one :-



The Ashton canal is on the left of the track here, separated by a wall with arches in it. These are temporarily boarded at present, but I am hoping that one day, as they go gliding by, passengers might be able to look through them, at this nice scene on the other side? :-



The tracks are now part way across the access road to block H :-





And one track now emerges right out of the compound, across Vicky Pollard and Carruthers, and down Merrill :-



Looking back up Merrill Street :-



And forwards down towards Holt Town :-

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny de Rivative View Post
Over in East Manchester to-day . . .

Merrill Street looking up from Holt Town :-



Holt Town looks like it will also be getting nice brick cladding by the River Medlock:-









The lift down to the Westbound platform is now coming into being, behind Man City :-







The Westbound platform will be partly under the bridge:-











It looks like they are now building a path to the Velodrome from the eponymous station to the East of Asda, which was not there before :-



Eastward Ho! :-

north manchester line (Oldham and Rochdale)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.cool View Post
Hi folks, first time posting on this topic. Don't know if anyone's posted pics about the Central Park metrolink so thought i'd share some that i took earlier today.

Central park in background.







Central park stop.









Through Monsall heading back to town.











Keep up to date with all the lastest news and gossip here:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=866944

Last edited by future.architect; May 19th, 2010 at 10:41 PM.
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Old May 20th, 2010, 03:13 AM   #178
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Will there be an underground stop or is that just an underpass?
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Old May 20th, 2010, 11:38 AM   #179
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Very impressive updates, thank you! I remember taking the metrolink system in 2001. It was very limited and slow and the rolling stock was particularly unattractive. These improvements show just how far it has come since then. Keep us updated please!
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Old May 20th, 2010, 07:42 PM   #180
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No new underground stops, most are in cuttings however and a couple will be elevated on viaducts.
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