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Old December 31st, 2017, 12:35 PM   #801
Rail_Serbia
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When the Prokop was planned, the idea was:

1) Prokop
- IC trains in Yugoslavia
- International trains
- Regional trains
And no single train terminate there (now, all trains are terminating in Prokop exept international)

2) Belgrade Main Station (Beograd glavna)
- Regional trains
- Suburban trains
And, there was plan to make 2,5km long tunnel below Square of Republics and Dorćol to Belgrade Danube (station for trains to Banat). That was for north-south arteria for RER like system, and also, east-west RER like system was planned, with location of Belgrade Main station as the hart of the system. There was plan that some regional trains in this system will go up to 100km from Belgrade to Novi Sad, Valjevo, Ruma, Zrenjanin, Vršac, Smederevo, Požarevac, Velika Plana, covering almost half of the Serbia.

Serving by metro in older plans:
1) Zemun station: M5, east-west arterial corridore for RER like system.
2) Novi Beograd rail station: M3, M5
3) Belgrade Center/Prokop: M2, M4
4) Rakovica station: north-south arterial corridor for RER like system
5) Belgrade Main station: the hart of the RER like system.
6) Belgrade Danube (Beograd Dunav): north south arterial corridore for RER like System
7) Vukov Spomenik underground 2 track station: M1, M3
The Prokop and Vukov Spom

Present plans:
1) No any rail station linked with metro network. even with the new Main Coach Station.
2) Reducing capacity for development of RER like system.

@Theijs

About fatalistic attitude toward life in slavic countries, and full awareness about the consequences is not true at all. The situation depend from country to country, and from time to time.

For instance, in Serbia during 1990-ies there was very strong spirit of resistance, people accepted to be heavy injured or dead on demonstartions, also jurnalist feel much more free to write what they want in the ages with a lot of killed jurnalists... Also in WWII, Serbians have one of the most active movement of resistent, and in present, atmosphere in Serbia is not a fatalism, more dissapointment to big political leaders who betray them.

The PR's, who are representatives of small part of population who have temporary benefits, don't see and don't want to see farder of his/her yard and TV are always present. Even on Skyscrapercity.

Like someone who spend some life time on East and West both (Serbia & Netherlands), I can see that west is not so free, democratic, racional and open-minded part of world at all. No any single big railway station in Netherlands is closed. No any single big train station is "obstacle", just opposite make those locations the most atractive. But all transit system is setted like it has serving of dense development zones like only purpose! Railways in Serbia are victims of lobies in political parties with no freedom for business, no awareness of opportunities in business sector which railways are giving. But there is still free trade of bus transport, competition which give to people better quality and lover prices. Even for subsidiesed urban/suburban bus lines, there is very strong concern of considering improvements with listening of public oppinions, but that is topic we can extend on topic in Subway and Urban Transport section. I have found out that in the Netherlands in real estate sector is some kind of mafia, which is using the lawyers instead of guns with same or better results. For example, in Utrecht they demolished a lot of heritage buildings to get more land near the tracks of active rail station as money-tree.

Only things which works much, much, much better then anywhere on Balcans considering the economical and public interests are topics support by enthusiasm from associations of citizens.

In Belgrade there is cutting of money-tree to "make profit"...

One of the most interesting examples of limited freedom on the west are stereotypes about Balcans, and there is a lot. I will write now only answer on few of them.

- No there is no evil nations on Balcans! Political situation is complicate, some evil powerfull people misused the crisis in 1980-ies in all parts of former Yugoslavia, but that is not something which make the nation evil.
- Balcans are not danger for foreigners. Particularly, Belgrade is safer then Amsterdam and Rotterdam. It hapened sometimes that something bad happened to foreigner, but that start to be a main topic for jurnalist few weeks. Even people on high level in hierarchy are angaged to solve a case. For all Balcanians, hospitality is question of proud and self respect.
- The statics of GDP, FORBS list etc. doesn't mean that Balcans is primitive culture and have almost nothing to offer! In sence of education, culture and technical development Former Yugoslavia was sometimes better than some West Europe countries at that time. The history and heritage is very reach, with a lot of impact from few empires. In Lepenski Vir there are well preserved rests of the oldest human setlement with rectangle form of streets etc. Natural beauties are much better saved then in majority of West Europe.
- Write what do you think about NATO now, go through the Balcans, but deeply, and in different parts, and write again. That could be positive or
negative oppinion, anything, but much, much different before and after. At all, the fear of Balcans on the west is produced to never do that in your life!
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Old January 1st, 2018, 03:34 AM   #802
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There's only one real issue in Serbia and it's believe me, it's never been about lack of money.
It's simply - lack of ideas. Belgrade station, old or new, they simply don't know what to do with them.

Frankly, a lot of time and nerves could have been saved had Serbia, like Canada, decided to simply abandon railways. Screw it - it's for tourists only.

In Canada, the national railway system, VIA Rail, transports roughly 4 million people per year. These are tourists and railway enthusiasts like Rail Serbia, with a sprinkling of old-fashioned business travelers that prefer still rail to air travel.
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Old January 1st, 2018, 11:15 AM   #803
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First of all, Happy new year!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smart City View Post
Why are you constantly mention "we the west"?

At request of a fellow forum member:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rail_Serbia View Post
We would like to know more about international experince with those things.
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Old January 1st, 2018, 11:45 AM   #804
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Happy new year!
Ok thank you man for explenation i thought it is you to insisted,and that 's was my rection was as it is,that is why i presented Serbian historic role on foundation of western [email protected] Serbia published a petition internationaly, before he s having any discussion back home about it.Disgrace!

Last edited by Smart City; January 1st, 2018 at 11:58 AM.
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Old January 1st, 2018, 06:24 PM   #805
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Happy new year to you too but cmon please dont fool yourself. How can you mix the word illyrian with serbian? At the time of Illyrian Empire the word serb didnt even exists, and yet alone serbians as nation. And what about genetics? And I didnt say anything about todays modernization of Serbia, I just said that you shouldnt mix Pannonia with slavs or serbs, it has just nothing to do together.

And now you can return to the railways.
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Old January 1st, 2018, 06:26 PM   #806
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HAPPY NEW YEAR 2018. Here's hoping that the New Year is in every way complete. With HAPPINESS, SUCCESS, good HEALTH and all that makes LIFE SWEET.
All the best friends from Wonderful Serbien ...!
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Old January 2nd, 2018, 12:49 AM   #807
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Thank you a lot ,all the best Wishes from Serbia for you too in the New Year 2018
Let.s dance with us..idemoooo!!!
https://youtu.be/kxviLf7ftDA
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Old January 2nd, 2018, 07:43 PM   #808
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O. K. Lets first say Happy New Year!

And after that, to answer to some members which I think are not correct.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theijs View Post
So in the West you first open a new place, before closing the old.
What we see now with BW is a limbo: there is nothing in place during the transition time(Glavna closes before Prokop or a metro are ready), like nobody thought about it. And that is what I mean with fatalistic approach: ‘we will see and survive until then’.
For the rest no offenses to anyone here.
At the beginning you are 100% right, but about another part, you are not correct. Polititians are always included in big projects more or less everywhere in the world. Just until 5 years ago there was any consalting with expert and public about big projects. Even sometimes demonstrations on streets... Less then during socialism, but there was. Both, socialistic and capitalistic countries sometimes have big projects which totally miss the target. USA people use sometimes terms "boondogle", "lets we build it, they will use it". Sometimes, projects can have serios technical problems...

Examples:
1) New Berlin Airport
2) Line 2 in Wienna, few dacades was underused, before extending.
3) Miamy metro never reach projected ridership
...
Of course that there was some "Lets we build it, they will use it" projects in Former Yugoslavia, but minority of them. Situation in which state spend the majority of investment resources for this kind of projects is a phenomenon of last few years.

Closing of old system (railway) before finishing the new system (metro) is something happend almost first time in the history! And at all, there will be huge problems to solve the situation.

"Belgrade Waterfront" is the most demaging project in the history of Serbia which is ever signed without military threat from foreign country. In the contract, there is an article there need to be a clean meadow without anything exept few heritage buildings until the end of 2019. On another side, the investor must finish half of Belgrade waterfront in 20 years, and all in 30 years. English lowyers protect the side of investor, whose word "railways are dirty" was enough for domestic polititions to understand that as "message from God".

In the year of 2013. Railfan Association sugested the system based on tram-train technology, which could be atractive, not so expensive for construction, and which can start to work in a very short term. Also, very easy to instal on the new network of streets. Render.
Our Association was marked as "an enemy of development" by present President of Serbia. That moment of "conflict" open to our association a lot of doors from a lot of state institions, media, increasing number of members... but that helped for the other topics, not that.

Later, "Belgrade Waterfront" was subject of street demonstrations with up to 25.000 people on the street, the biggest demonstrations about any big project on Balcans, and in the atmosphere of media cenzorship worse than during 1990-ies. The problem is the leaders somehow betray the people who protests.

Now, even if the revolution happen, and totaly change the political system, there is steal a demaging contract by which Serbia need to pay the penalties for any day passenger railway stay longer! In the same package is relocation of suburban bus station and coach station. The bus companies lobby dictate the bad policy of quality on railways for last two decades, and also not using of the majority of existing track for suburban transport. But, relocation of suburban bus station will make very huge dissatisfaction in the mid of 2018. Almost no users of those suburban lines know that... We will see...

Or to start to organize some resistent now?

Last edited by Singidunum; January 3rd, 2018 at 02:22 AM.
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Old January 3rd, 2018, 12:56 AM   #809
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While it's true that Prokop has no station building it still has more of it than the current station which apart from the pretty facade has almost nothing.

It's a joke literally

















This is everything there is and it's the current state of affairs.

http://www.filminserbia.com/location...ilway-station/
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Old January 3rd, 2018, 01:01 AM   #810
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Plus there is also good video made by user dulevoz showing suburban rail in Belgrade which already uses Prokop station.
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Old January 3rd, 2018, 02:52 AM   #811
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Thank you for video bro,hope you will come to Belgrade soon time.
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Old January 4th, 2018, 11:17 PM   #812
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Full article on this link.

Quote:
WHAT IS NEEDED TO MAKE PROKOP COST-EFFECTIVE?

At January 26th 2016 one of the construction stages of Prokop was completed. Although this is a big step forward, more needs to be done to have a fully functional new main gate of the European city, which is the main purpose of all the major railway stations in Europe.


(NO) CONNECTION TO PUBLIC TRANSPORT

Except for taxi and car, Prokop is very difficult to get today. From public transport, the best connection is with the city rail BG: VOZ. This is paradoxical, since every current station of the city railway line Pančevački Most - Batajnica is better connected with the surround, and therefore more used then the station that is officially called "Belgrade - Center". The access roads from the direction of the Duke Alexander Karađorđević's boulevard are finished June 20th 2017, but there is no redirecting of the frequent trolleybus lines 40 and 41 is closer to the station itself. Even if they redirect them, we have few articulated trolleybuses, and these two lines are already heavily burdened. In addition, they approach the central city area by ​​Knez Miloš street, where there are no bus lanes and where traffic speeds often fall below 10km / h during working day. Short circular bus route 36 have interval 20min during working day, 40min on weekends, and route 34 is a minibus on every 35 minutes.
Lets we sumarize:
1) Tram connection, with direct lines to almost all parts of tram network.
2) The biggest or one of the biggest bus hub for urban and suburban lines both.
3) Bicycle-pedestrian access between first level above the track to Medical District on bridge construction across the gorge between them.
4) Commercial zone on 20ha around the train station, with +400.000m2 retail space.
5) The road transport links.

From those, only 5 is in current plans. From the three planned access roads, only one is finished.

Very important reason why so much things are needed is the fact that, making this kin of station cost effective need +100.000 people every day there. All Serbia has only 47 EMU, 46 DMU and 30 passenger wagons in service. There is no serious plans to buy more roling stocks until now.

Even if everything else is done on upgrade named Prokop, the Belgrade Main Station is needed, if strategic planners in Serbia realy want to continue the development of historic, cultural, education, administration, touristic center of Belgrade.
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Old January 17th, 2018, 05:47 AM   #813
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazySerb View Post
There's only one real issue in Serbia and it's
Frankly, a lot of time and nerves could have been saved had Serbia, like Canada, decided to simply abandon railways. Screw it - it's for tourists only.
This is perhaps the most misinformed comment I've ever read in this forum.
Clearly you know little to nothing about urban planning and use of multiple means of transport. Canada/North America can not be compared to Europe and thank god European countries are not car centric, as it's an unsustainable way of developing urban areas with population densities at European levels.

Better stick to posting photos of the new bridge in Novi Sad
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