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Old April 21st, 2013, 11:52 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BringMe View Post
I personally don't like this system

1- is not very efficient
2- very abusive with land
3- is not fast
4- visually is not that great
True BRT systems take up a significant amount of land, and are not that much cheaper than LRT. It's why systems like Bogota will never be successful in North America. We already have wide highways, why would cities build massive transitways for buses, when LRT can do the job with much less land, and cheaper?
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Old April 22nd, 2013, 07:04 AM   #22
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It worked well in Ottawa and other BRT systems like LA's Orange Line.
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Old April 22nd, 2013, 03:26 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinB View Post
True BRT systems take up a significant amount of land, and are not that much cheaper than LRT. It's why systems like Bogota will never be successful in North America. We already have wide highways, why would cities build massive transitways for buses, when LRT can do the job with much less land, and cheaper?
It will be successfull even in States or Canada, coz it has to.
1. Public transportation has to be improved there, and with expensive metros or light railways it will take at least 400 years to build there efficient systems, regarding the fact, how 'lazy' the authorities in N. America are.
2. LRT requires just few inches more land than BRT and takes more time to build it, so more BRT line will be constructed not only in NA but worldwide.
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Old April 24th, 2013, 07:05 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy2 View Post
Those are just amazing numbers. Bogota, like most Latin American cities, are at the fore front of BRT. It is an incredibly efficient, fast, accessible, flexible, and easy to build form of rapid transit and is often far superior to LRT.

I do have one comment............I saw a youtube on how many people in Bogota are rebelling against TransMillenio due to it's relatively high fares. Do they charge more to use the system?
Thanks for you comment Ssiguy, Transmilenio initially served to alleviate some traffic problems they had in the city, because the city did not have the financial capacity to build a Metro system. Is cheaper tahn a LRT, more flexible and the thing that I like is that detracts circulation lanes to cars and gives priority to public transport

About the video, the TM fare is more expensive than the typical bus fare, because this system does not have any kind of government subsidy. Nowdays the district of Bogota is subsidizing the fare in off-peak rate for people to use the system more in these hours, but this will get very costly to the city, although increases the number of passengers.

Peak Hour = COP $1700 pesos = $0,93 Dollars
Valley Hour= COP $1400 pesos = $0,76 Dollars


Quote:
Originally Posted by BringMe View Post
I personally don't like this system

1- is not very efficient
2- very abusive with land
3- is not fast
4- visually is not that great

Well Bring...

1- Is not efficient, because the system is not designed to move the number of passengers moving in this system, the main mistake of TM and its defenders is that they believe that the system is the backbone of public transport, but the reality is that the BRT, including TM, should be complements to networks more capable systems such as Metro.

2- I dont think so...
TM creates more public space for the pedestrian and bike lines, along the "troncales" (lines) you can see more trees, people walking, etc.

image hosted on flickr

TM at "Eje Ambiental" - Ambiental Axis

Abusive with private transport :P

3- If you compare the TM Vs. LTR or Metro is slower
If you compare the TM Vs. Car or Bus is Faster!

4- I believe that all my comments are based on comparisons, so if you compare one way, with no organizing buses, or an elevated metro, or without public intervention, BRT like the TM gains in most cases.

I think even more, TM is as nice as a LRT line, because as I said above, a positive factor intervention TM is the public space. If you stop to compare a bus, a train against these being not objective.


Volvo Gran Viale BM12

The only case that is not visually beautiful it is:

image hosted on flickr

TM at "Avenida Caracas" - Caracas Avenue


Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinB View Post
True BRT systems take up a significant amount of land, and are not that much cheaper than LRT. It's why systems like Bogota will never be successful in North America. We already have wide highways, why would cities build massive transitways for buses, when LRT can do the job with much less land, and cheaper?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Falubaz View Post
It will be successfull even in States or Canada, coz it has to.
1. Public transportation has to be improved there, and with expensive metros or light railways it will take at least 400 years to build there efficient systems, regarding the fact, how 'lazy' the authorities in N. America are.
2. LRT requires just few inches more land than BRT and takes more time to build it, so more BRT line will be constructed not only in NA but worldwide.
The Public transportation at NA or Europe traditionally is a heavy and efficient systems such as trains, metros or subways, so a lighter system as the Transmilenio, can become a culture shock, because of the way this system is conceived: Works with buses, segragates cars lanes and to public transport.


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Old April 24th, 2013, 08:31 AM   #25
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Nice! But I think a city of the size and importance of Bogotá deserves a real subway system.
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Old May 1st, 2013, 08:26 AM   #26
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Transmilenio BRT


Map






------------------------------------------------------------------






Some of the Main Stations





Portal Suba










Portal Eldorado












Portal Norte












Portal El Tunal









Saludos!!
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Old May 3rd, 2013, 04:26 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy2 View Post
It worked well in Ottawa and other BRT systems like LA's Orange Line.
No, it wasn't nearly as successful as an LRT would have been.
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Old May 3rd, 2013, 08:18 AM   #28
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Ridership of Transmilenio is only 1.6 million/day? That's still behind Curitiba's pioneering BRT system, which transports 2.1, even though the networks are of similar size and Curitiba is much smaller (Curitiba = 3 million; Bogotá 10 million).
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Old May 4th, 2013, 08:13 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post
No, it wasn't nearly as successful as an LRT would have been.

Well, here in Bogotá there's no any rail System (Only touristic) so we don't know if a LRT or another similar could be better for the city. Most people who knows about the topic, knows that any heavy system is better than the buses, but the Transmilenio model is a short-time solution who helps the city to solve most of the problems of passenger transport.




Quote:
Originally Posted by mopc View Post
Ridership of Transmilenio is only 1.6 million/day? That's still behind Curitiba's pioneering BRT system, which transports 2.1, even though the networks are of similar size and Curitiba is much smaller (Curitiba = 3 million; Bogotá 10 million).

Where did you take that numbers?



I have this information:




Quote:
Originally Posted by TopWatch View Post



...
Code:
STATS TRANSMILENIO 2012 GENERAL INFORMATION (Till September 30, 2012)


Total passengers                            4,011,912,983 passengers
Average peak hour passengers                 198,163 passengers (per hour)
A Line (Troncal Caracas) aprox              45,000 passengers (per hour)


Passengers Total fed  (inputs / outputs)    1,999,603,630 passengers (feeder system)
Intercity passenger totals                   233,628,187 passengers (From Outside Metro Area to Cit system)

Stations operating                             115 stations
Miles of operational backbone via              87 km
Available trunk Fleet related                 1,392 Buses
Average speed backbone fleet                  26.19 Km / hour

Average mileage fleet                             338,285 km (per bus)

Feeder routes                                       90 Routes
Feeding linked fleet                                574 Buses
Fed neighborhoods (approx)                    318 Barrios (neighborhoods)
Power operating Km (approx)                   663 km (total Feeder routes)

Source: Transmilenio.gov.co

...




So, If i get 4,011,912,983 of passengers at year and divide by 360 days, I get 11,144,202 passengers per day.

This is only a math exercise done by me, I'll try to bring better information, to not only be based on theoretical data.







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Old May 5th, 2013, 06:25 PM   #30
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The urban form around the massive bus terminuses is not that great, lots of car parks large roads etc
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Old May 5th, 2013, 06:38 PM   #31
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Maybe, it's 4,011,912,983 passengers since the beginning of existence of Transmillenio ?

there is an impossible contradiction between 4,011,912,983 passengers during one year and 193 000 during one peak hour
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Old May 5th, 2013, 11:33 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dan72 View Post
The urban form around the massive bus terminuses is not that great, lots of car parks large roads etc

I think it's quite the opposite:



First, the idea is to take from the car, lanes of circulation to give it to the exclusive bus lane and segregated roads with overtaking to make it more efficient, also the whole system and stations are in the middle of the roads in order to avoid any obstacle than the rest of traffic may cause.

image hosted on flickr

Todos los derechos reservados por EMBARQ Brasil



Second, TM has a higher Km value compared to other BRT, this occurs because besides build roads for buses and stations, the idea is to improve the users and pedestrians along the route, this is for improving water supply networks and grid, improving sidewalks, building bike paths and improving landscaping planting trees through which the buses. This also generates a high valorization in places where the tracks pass the bus.

image hosted on flickr

Todos los derechos reservados por EMBARQ Brasil



Third, the sidewalks are filled with people, trade, improving the quality of life, improves the air, among many other indirect factors that might not be noticed much in the operation of the system, but if it is good for the people city​​.


This phenomenon also happens with Metro, only if it is underground, interventions are not along the track, only where stations or where you note the direct presence of the system, and if it is high because the condition deteriorates of persons who live along the line due to the visual pollution which can generate a viaduct.


image hosted on flickr





Quote:
Originally Posted by nanar View Post
.
Maybe, it's 4,011,912,983 passengers since the beginning of existence of Transmillenio ?

there is an impossible contradiction between 4,011,912,983 passengers during one year and 193 000 during one peak hour
Yes, there's a mistake with numbers... my apologies.

4,011,912,983 passengers is the number of passengers since the year 2000, from the beginning of the operations.


I try to find more information to the topic and as there is no current data, the closest so far are these:




That shows the passengers transported per month, from September 2011 to February 2012. On average they are about 40 million passengers per month, which gives us a daily average of 1'300.000 per day or 74,000 passengers/hour in 18 hours of operation.

Then the assertion of mopc is correct, just are carrying between 1.3 to 1.7 million passengers per day We have to check that data is taken from both variables and see the percentage of trips are representative in Transmilenio, compared to the total of the entire public transport system in Bogotá.


Saludos!
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Old May 7th, 2013, 06:40 AM   #33
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Transmilenio and the bike culture in Bogotá


Quote:
Originally Posted by Feleru* View Post
image hosted on flickr

...


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Old May 7th, 2013, 08:34 AM   #34
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My source was Wikipedia, not entirely reliable, but apparently it was correct. Curitiba's system has the same length and transports 2,3 million/day, so it's still the largest in ridership by far. Maybe Bogotá has to improve the feeder bus system.
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Old May 7th, 2013, 07:18 PM   #35
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Is there a map that shows both the proposed Metro and Transmilenio together?
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Old May 8th, 2013, 09:19 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mopc View Post
My source was Wikipedia, not entirely reliable, but apparently it was correct. Curitiba's system has the same length and transports 2,3 million/day, so it's still the largest in ridership by far. Maybe Bogotá has to improve the feeder bus system.


Well I try to find why, if Curitiba is a Smaller city than Bogotá, have a largest rideship?

First:
Quote:
A RIT de Hoje (Translated)

RIT has 2,100 buses (1,500 urban and 600 metropolitan integrated). Of 1500, 1280 are in daily operation and transport, by working day, 2.040 million passengers (1.55 million in Curitiba, of which 800,000 payers, 490,000, of which 230,000 paying Metropolitan Region). Buses travel, day by day, all the ways of Curitiba and neighborhoods, spread over 385 lines (285 urban and 100 metropolitan) and five thousand stops, reinforced by 351 stations and 29-tube integration terminals.
From: http://www.curitiba.pr.gov.br/idioma...rogressoonibus



Then, looking these results, one can account for the magnitude of the BRT in Curitiba, due to coverage and number of services that have unlike Bogotá.



So what's missing from Bogota?

Currently there are 108 km trunks, which operate in 11 lines, but actual usage is well below systems such as Curitiba, despite going to the point of collapse during peak hours. The 77% of trips in the city of Bogota, are made by public transport, but only 9% belongs to Trasmilenio:




Trips modes in Bogotá


So the use of the system is much lower than Integrated System of the city of Curitiba.

--------------------





Another factor that may affect the numbers of Bogotá, is that in the statistics only include passengers who enter the smart card system, not taken into account passengers entering the feed system or those coming from the metropolitan area (intermunicipales)




Data till September 2012 (Only Backbone or Trunk Lanes)

+


Data till September 2012 (Only Feeding System)




---------------------------------

Currently working in an integrated system called SITP (Integrated Public Transport System) to reach the level of coverage in the major cities.


Scheme to future of the integrated transport in Bogotá

Legend

--- Urban Buses (SITP)
--- Transmilenio
--- Feeding Buses
--- Train (LRT or Heavy?)
--- Metro





--------------------------


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom 958 View Post
Is there a map that shows both the proposed Metro and Transmilenio together?
Here's a "scheme"




The closest map is this...


Legend:

Red Line = Metro
- discontinuously = Underground
- continuously = surface

Dark and Orange Lines = Transmilenio

Small discontinuously line = Metropolitan Train





I hope al this information helps to all!

Thanks for the comments!

Saludos!!
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Old May 8th, 2013, 10:21 AM   #37
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Very good info, thank you
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Old May 9th, 2013, 12:44 PM   #38
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Yes, very interesting. Thanks!

On this map


it looks like the Lourdes station was mismarked-- surely it's meant to be a connection to the Transmilenio, not the Tren de Cercanias, though that area doesn't look like a very good place to put a high-capacity bus/metro station.

Speaking of which, is the Tren de Cercanias even a serious proposal? I don't think so. I found this website about it, which includes a conceptual station cross section


and layout


and this hilarious scheme for Calle 22 at Av Ciudad de Cali (north is to the right)


plus a gratuitous photo of a rather beat-up-looking Eurostar train.

The future of public transportation in Bogota doesn't seem very well thought out, even now. But whatever they do, I hope it works.
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Old May 9th, 2013, 12:51 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TopWatch View Post
....
So what's missing from Bogota?

Currently there are 108 km trunks, which operate in 11 lines, but actual usage is well below systems such as Curitiba, despite going to the point of collapse during peak hours. The 77% of trips in the city of Bogota, are made by public transport, but only 9% belongs to TransMilenio:
Please, where do you find these 77 % ?

In the following drawing, one can see: walking ("pie") = 46 %, car = 10 %, bicycle = 3 %, motorbicycle 2 %, Taxi 4 %

"Collective transports" are :
TransMilenio (9) + Public collective Transport (20) + Scolar (3) + Intermunicipal (1)+ (may be) Informal (1) = 34 %

So TransMilenio would be "a little third" of all collective transports.

Quote:

Trips modes in Bogotá-
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Old May 10th, 2013, 06:55 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom 958 View Post
Yes, very interesting. Thanks!

On this map
...

it looks like the Lourdes station was mismarked-- surely it's meant to be a connection to the Transmilenio, not the Tren de Cercanias, though that area doesn't look like a very good place to put a high-capacity bus/metro station.
Lourdes:
image hosted on flickr
From: Flickr

It can be a potential Metro station due to high passenger flow. But there are several factors that make this project does not succeed at this point.

1. The physical integration with Transmilenio is difficult, due to the work of great magnitude between the station and the Metro BRT. The nearby Transmilenio Station is Calle 63 and its 100 meters from Lourdes.

2. The Plaza and The Church would be in danger of collapse, if the work is not done carefully enough.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom 958 View Post
Speaking of which, is the Tren de Cercanias even a serious proposal? I don't think so.

...
Well "Tren de Cercanias" means "Suburban train" and it's a project between Bogotá (District) and Cundinamarca (Departamento (State)). It aims to bring more closer the nearby small cities in the metro area (Funza, Mosquera, Chia, Zipaquira, Facatativa, etc.) to the capital city with a ligth train line.



From: SSC


This project has many difficulties, because besides these two local authorities, the nation also has to approve the project's viability because of the costs and expenses participation percentages that everyone should have.



I recommend you the Metro de Bogotá page, there you can find some information (In Spanish) as some schemes proposed stations and some ideas subway elaboration, for it has not been much progress on the issue, only the path that this can have.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom 958 View Post
...


The future of public transportation in Bogota doesn't seem very well thought out, even now. But whatever they do, I hope it works.
That scheme is a conection between Transmilenio and Tren de Cercanias.

Well, the truth is uncertain because there are many projects (Metro, More Transmilenio lines, Integrated Public Transportation SITP, Tren de Cercanias, Urban Highways), but slow execution. I hope in a future the city progress and completed most of this ideas.

Pd: Metro has first Aprovation Today! The Advanced basic engineering is on the way!




---------------------------------




Quote:
Originally Posted by nanar View Post
Please, where do you find these 77 % ?

In the following drawing, one can see: walking ("pie") = 46 %, car = 10 %, bicycle = 3 %, motorbicycle 2 %, Taxi 4 %

"Collective transports" are :
TransMilenio (9) + Public collective Transport (20) + Scolar (3) + Intermunicipal (1)+ (may be) Informal (1) = 34 %

So TransMilenio would be "a little third" of all collective transports.
Yes, 77% was an expression that I heard in the TV. I'm sorry if there was a misunderstanding

The only thing that I will change to your ecuation is that Taxi is also a Public Service and School Transport are Private in most cases, so the ecuation will be like:


Quote:
Originally Posted by nanar View Post
...


"Collective transports" are :
TransMilenio (9) + Public collective Transport (20) + Intermunicipal (1) + Informal (1) + Taxi (4)= 35 %

...

This expression of 77% is a popular saying used by politicians, who also used to walking transport (a pie) as public transport, because it makes use of public space


Thanks for you quote!

Saludos!
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