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Old May 24th, 2010, 09:56 PM   #141
brisavoine
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Originally Posted by heywindup View Post
Strasbourg? Colmar?
Nope. Half-timber houses in Alsace and Germany have a glossier effect, almost to the point of looking fake sometimes. These one above look more natural. Definitely not Alsace or anywhere German.
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Old May 24th, 2010, 09:56 PM   #142
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Strasbourg? Colmar?
It's further west.
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Old May 26th, 2010, 01:22 AM   #143
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It's Troyes! I've been to that street in summer 2008 Can't remember where it is exactly but I think it's near the city hall.
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Old May 26th, 2010, 03:14 AM   #144
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Old May 28th, 2010, 09:42 AM   #145
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@brisavoine
I really don't know why you want some Haussmann buildings to be knocked down. The way you call Hôtel Dieu 'extremely ugly' is a ridiculous overstatement. It may be plain by Paris' standards but it certainly isn't terrible. I understand that the Haussmann region takes up a large swathe of Central Paris and you are only considering reconfiguring Île de la Cité, but how are you so certain changing the layout will be of any benefit? Do you have any evidence (other than that very inconclusive line graph) indicating a need/benefit for the change? You say that Paris isn't there to only cater only for tourists, I agree entirely. But do Parisians really want this to happen because after all, your proposed changes are going to affect them the most.
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Old May 28th, 2010, 08:57 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by accadacca View Post
I really don't know why you want some Haussmann buildings to be knocked down.
There: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=927486

56 pages, all in frog-speak, and you'll know all the whys and hows.
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Originally Posted by accadacca View Post
The way you call Hôtel Dieu 'extremely ugly' is a ridiculous overstatement. It may be plain by Paris' standards but it certainly isn't terrible.
Hôtel Dieu would be plain by any standard. Ok, maybe not in Chanchun, China, but in any European city it would be considered plain, even in Birmingham or Rotterdam.

By they way, for the language buffs, the ^ over the vowel indicates a "s" that was lost in the pronunciation of modern French. Those "s" were usually kept in English, hence French "hôtel" and English "hostel", French "forêt" and English "forest", French "bête" and English "beast", French "côte" and English "coast", French "conquête" and English "conquest", French "hôpital" and English "hospital", French "île" and English "isle", French "pâte" and English "paste", etc.
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Originally Posted by accadacca View Post
Do you have any evidence (other than that very inconclusive line graph) indicating a need/benefit for the change?
At the moment, Île de la Cité is essentially a dead area, with some lawyers to the west who are all gone at 8pm at the max, and some tourists around Notre Dame who leave in their air conditioned buses as soon as the mandatory picture has been taken. So anything would be an improvement compared to the situation now. Even a giant cinema multiplex with popcorn machines would be an improvement.
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You say that Paris isn't there to only cater only for tourists, I agree entirely. But do Parisians really want this to happen because after all, your proposed changes are going to affect them the most.
Parisians are like St Thomas. They'll believe only what they'll see. Until it's built, probably 90% of them will oppose it, there will be terrible op-eds in the press, indignant talks during dinners, and so on, just like when Mitterrand proposed building the Pyramid of the Louvre, and then once it's built, they'll come out of curiosity, they'll see all the small meandering streets with little shops, bars, and boutiques, and they'll probably come to like it and adopt it, without ever admitting that they were wrong to oppose it in the first place. And 20 years later the young Parisians will be quite surprised if you tell them that there used to be a huge hospital, a police station and large windswept empty squares in this now very lively district of Paris.
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Old May 28th, 2010, 09:16 PM   #147
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Parisians are like St Thomas. They'll believe only what they'll see. Until it's built, probably 90% of them will oppose it, there will be terrible op-eds in the press, indignant talks during dinners, and so on, just like when Mitterrand proposed building the Pyramid of the Louvre, and then once it's built, they'll come out of curiosity, they'll see all the small meandering streets with little shops, bars, and boutiques, and they'll probably come to like it and adopt it, without ever admitting that they were wrong to oppose it in the first place. And 20 years later the young Parisians will be quite surprised if you tell them that there used to be a huge hospital, a police station and large windswept empty squares in this now very lively district of Paris.
Yes, like the Tour Montparnasse. They were clearly opposed 40 years ago, they clearly adopt it now...
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Old June 25th, 2010, 08:29 PM   #148
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I have a question.

Who got the new buildings built on the new boulevards during the "renovation" of Paris? And were owners forced to modify their houses to the "Haussmann look"?
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Old August 31st, 2010, 06:22 AM   #149
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More is less....

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Originally Posted by Minato ku View Post
That's why it is the prefect place to build skyscrapers in Central Paris.
The Montparnasse tower would be less sole surrounded by other high-rises.
I may be late to this discussion but I simply do not understand the "logic" in the above.
Because you have one truly awful building thrust into the landscape, you should therefore build more of the same around it just to make it fit in?
Would it not be simpler, and more easily achievable to just demolish the one offender? (And soon!)
More ugliness does not somehow make it more acceptable, ...just worse!
The apparent Parisian "acceptance" of this monstrosity probably has more to do with it having been there long enough now to "not be seen", rather than the affront it caused upon it's first appearance.

Last edited by LeStryge; August 31st, 2010 at 06:46 AM.
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Old October 5th, 2010, 12:33 AM   #150
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Here are some pics taken just before or during Haussmann works, compared to nowadays:

Île de La Cité - Quai des Orfèvres & Pont St-Michel, Ier & IVe Arr.






Rue Censier, Ve Arr.
Formerly "Rue Sans-Chief" (Sans-Chief -> Sancié -> Censier), this street was a dead-end, the district had a bad reputation and was one of the dirtiest areas of the old Paris, due to industries along the Bièvres river (the river is now underground).






Rue Soufflot, Ve Arr.






Boulevard Arago, XIIIe & XIVe Arr.
The first pic was taken just after the opening of the new Boulevard, the real estate program following its opening hadn't even begun.






Avenue de l'Opéra, Ier & IIe Arr.
The Avenue, firstly named "Avenue Napoléon", has replaced a district which was a high place of prostitution and gambling.






Parc des Buttes Chaumont, XIXe Arr.
The parc was built on a large quarry, which was famous for the quality of its stone, the quarry has served for many buildings in Paris and around, and even for overseas buildings (e.g. in the US) . The big rock on the pics was an important site of gallows till the opening of the parc.






Boulevard Henri IV, IVe Arr.
The first pic shows a part of the terracing works.






Rue du Vieux-Colombier & St-Sulpice Church, VIe Arr.






Rue Réaumur, IIIe Arr.
On the left of the first pic we can see a small part of the largest and sadly famous "Cour des miracles" of Paris (dirty and scary slum districts known for their very high crime rate in the pre-Haussmann Paris). It's this one which is described in Victor Hugo's "Notre-Dame de Paris".







The old pics (most of them taken in 1865-1866) come from the excelent book: "Charles Marville: Paris photographié au temps d'Haussmann" ("Charles Marville: Photographs of Paris at the Time of the Second Empire"), the recent ones are credited by Le Figaro Magazine.

About "Charles Marville: Paris photographié au temps d'Haussmann" , here is the editor's presentation (google translate):
Quote:
In 1860, Haussmann created the "historical commission of Paris" who asked Charles Marville to photograph in 1865, the streets which will disappear, then, in 1877, the new avenues. Napoleon III greeted this initiative with enthusiasm. "This will be followed through the centuries, the transformations of the city which, thanks to your untiring activity, is now the most wonderful and most salubrious of the capitals of Europe," he wrote to his Prefet. Photos from Marville that freeze the before and after Haussmann are not only great beauty but also of vital importance: They tell the greatest change that a city has ever known.
I think that Napoléon III were right about this fantastic photographic testimony which is indeed an invaluable heritage !
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Old October 5th, 2010, 09:11 AM   #151
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Refinement, ....or rats!

Thank you so much parcdesprinces for the most excellent photos, ....I specially liked the fact that someone had taken the trouble to take the new ones from the very same angle as the historic views.
Now apart from the romantic nostalgia lent to the historical pictures, mainly a result of the length of time having passed, I really don't think even the most virulent critic of Haussmann could claim a preference for a return to the former of any of the views.
They are exactly what they are, ...falling down, rat-infested dirty slums, despite what may appear as a certain bucolic charm on the surface of some of the individual buildings.
Slum clearances CAN, and so often does, result in those horrific mass housing projects of high rise uniformly ugly ghettos so evident in other major cities. I for one am thankful the areas were cleared when they were, .....or we could have a Paris full of those.
(Shudder!)
It's true that Paris may not just be a city for tourists, ...however should they not have chosen Paris as one of the most desirable cities in the world to visit, (and spend their money!), the economy of the City of Light and the income of so many Parisians would take a serious beating, even those perhaps not directly employed in the tourist trade.
No one is going to spend thousands of dollars to fly halfway around the world to see a city full of high rise concrete/glass blocks, even if they are "modern". Brasilia, despite it's "architectural bravura" does NOT feature on many people's "must see" list, ..if they know about it at all!
The abject failure of Le Corbusier's disastrous Unite d'Habitation in Marseilles clearly demonstrates the French dislike of such "house is a machine for living" theories.
The pleasure of Haussmann is that while his buildings have an appearance of uniformity, which certainly makes Paris appear "ensemble"... yet if you look closely there are a myriad variations on the theme.
The subtle is preferable to the brutal equivalent of a concrete "kick-in-the-head".
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Old October 5th, 2010, 09:41 AM   #152
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I couldn't agree more !



P.S. Referring to your previous post about Parisians...well, I'm a "real Parisian" (I was born and raised here), and I've noticed an interesting fact:
The "new Parisians" (especially when they are originated from insignificant French boring provincial towns) want to change Paris into what they had dreamed about "big cities", and in addition of that, they obviously want to see their hometown's reflection on the mirror='Bring back the medieval Paris'.....

BTW, where are you from ?

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Old October 5th, 2010, 12:43 PM   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeStryge View Post
It's true that Paris may not just be a city for tourists, ...however should they not have chosen Paris as one of the most desirable cities in the world to visit, (and spend their money!), the economy of the City of Light and the income of so many Parisians would take a serious beating, even those perhaps not directly employed in the tourist trade.
Those you are not employed for the tourist trade are 96% of workers (This include Taxi, restaurants...) and most of the money from the tourism (3% of Paris GDP) come from business visitors who care more about the convention center and the office buildings than the monuments.

Now I never said that we should destroy monuments or nice historic district like le Marais, I said that Paris is not a museum made for the tourists. We could build modern building if we want.
Transforming inner Paris in a museum would badly affect the economy in the city and complicate the lives of 12 million people.

Many people overrate too much the importance of tourism in Paris.


Quote:
No one is going to spend thousands of dollars to fly halfway around the world to see a city full of high rise concrete/glass blocks, even if they are "modern". Brasilia, despite it's "architectural bravura" does NOT feature on many people's "must see" list, ..if they know about it at all!
The abject failure of Le Corbusier's disastrous Unite d'Habitation in Marseilles clearly demonstrates the French dislike of such "house is a machine for living" theories.
Are you saying that today we build building like we did in the 1960's 1970's.
Come on the skyscrapers of today are far more beautiful, integrated, etc than before.
It would be better than the existing ugly mall of Montparnasse.
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Old October 5th, 2010, 01:03 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by LeStryge View Post
I really don't think even the most virulent critic of Haussmann could claim a preference for a return to the former of any of the views.
They are exactly what they are, ...falling down, rat-infested dirty slums, despite what may appear as a certain bucolic charm on the surface of some of the individual buildings.
They could have gentrified those areas and renovated the buildings instead of tearing them down. London was never really modernized and yet the city is far from a slum. The narrow streets cause traffic jams though.
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Old October 5th, 2010, 02:57 PM   #155
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London was modernised many times, the construction of Shaftesbury Avenue, Charing Cross Road, Embankment(s), Northumberland Avenue, Kingsway, Aldwych etc destroyed some of the oldest parts of London and were carried out under pretext of clearing slums.

I likes Paris now better, it is orderly, harmonious and elegant. Georgians would be proud. Besides the old Paris is still there in the side streets, just like old London is (more or less) still there in the districts like Soho, Mayfair, Covent Garden, Holborn etc.
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Old October 5th, 2010, 06:16 PM   #156
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They could have gentrified those areas and renovated the buildings instead of tearing them down.
Exactly.

Rue du Vieux Colombier is a typical example of that. They have butchered this Medieval area, destroyed everything, and for what, for a section of large windswept street that is totally useless because the rest of that axis (rue St Sulpice, behind the church) was fortunately not enlarged.

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Old October 5th, 2010, 06:25 PM   #157
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The before photo looks very London-ish.
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Old October 5th, 2010, 06:27 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by parcdesprinces View Post
P.S. Referring to your previous post about Parisians...well, I'm a "real Parisian" (I was born and raised here), and I've noticed an interesting fact:
The "new Parisians" (especially when they are originated from insignificant French boring provincial towns) want to change Paris into what they had dreamed about "big cities", and in addition of that, they obviously want to see their hometown's reflection on the mirror='Bring back the medieval Paris'.....
Ludicrous comment!

I think it's precisely the people who come from outside who have a better vision of Paris, because they are not le nez dans le guidon, they have more perspective than native people who've only known Haussmannian Paris all their life.

The spirit of Paris, as these pictures perfectly show, is that of a city little concerned with its history, and evolving over the centuries, with little regard for the past. There is no other city in Europe that has voluntarily destroyed so much of its past than Paris. In London the past was destroyed because of fires and wars, but in Paris nothing of that sort happened. All the destruction was done by the Parisians themselves, in cold blood, because for them modernism and the transformation of the city was more important than the past.

Now it's just ludicrous that the same Parisians want to freeze the city in its Hausmannian state, like a dead shell that should remain for ever. It goes against the very spirit of the city.
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Old October 5th, 2010, 06:32 PM   #159
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In London the past was destroyed because of fires and wars.
More was lost to post war planners than the bombs of the Luftwaffe. Fact. You should be happy Paris didnt get the same treatment.
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Old October 5th, 2010, 07:10 PM   #160
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I think the idea sounds good to tear down Hotel Dieu, and restore the old street grid . I really think this could be a nice sign that Paris belongs to Parisians not to tourists, and that buildings aren't good, just because they're old. (Especially a hospital! Imagine lying in a hospital built in the 19th century! I did once and I wouldn't recommend it, no matter how modern you renovate it, it stays a 19th century building not really designed for modern hospital standards).
this is hylarious!

is there a better indicator that a city belongs to its inhabitants that a hospital in the most expensive neighbourhood?

someone also said Ile de la Cite is a desert...
is that a joke?
if he minded it's a desert during the evening, well, all Paris is appart from a few concurrend places.

even in winter is plenty of people!
the only empty place is the square in front of Palais de Justice, and it's nice like that. it's a oasis of tranquility in the middle of the city.

Hotel de Dieu is perfect as it is!


it's crazy people living in HLM in postwar suburbs of Paris wanting to convert the beautyful parts of the city into something looking like Velizy-Vilacoublay, or Singapore; or worst, just claiming for "architecture de l'espectacle".
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