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Old October 5th, 2010, 07:49 PM   #161
Mr Bricks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Greco View Post
London was modernised many times, the construction of Shaftesbury Avenue, Charing Cross Road, Embankment(s), Northumberland Avenue, Kingsway, Aldwych etc destroyed some of the oldest parts of London and were carried out under pretext of clearing slums.
Yeah slum clearing did take place and old streets like Holywell Street disappeared. Still, London was never modernised in an orderly fashion like Paris, not even after the great fire. The street plan looks very similar toady.

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Originally Posted by El_Greco View Post
I likes Paris now better, it is orderly, harmonious and elegant. Georgians would be proud. Besides the old Paris is still there in the side streets, just like old London is (more or less) still there in the districts like Soho, Mayfair, Covent Garden, Holborn etc.
Maybe you´re right, but the old Paris would have been great too.
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Old October 5th, 2010, 08:02 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by Luli Pop View Post
is there a better indicator that a city belongs to its inhabitants that a hospital in the most expensive neighbourhood?
The Île de la Cité is not the most expensive neighborhood of Paris, far from it. The most expensive neighborhoods are in the 6th and 7th arrondissements.
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Originally Posted by Luli Pop View Post
someone also said Ile de la Cite is a desert...
is that a joke?
The Île de la Cité IS a desert. In 1858, 15,000 people lived there. 10 years later, after Haussmann destroyed the central part of the island to build the Prefecture of Police and the Hôtel Dieu hospital, only 5,000 people remained on the Île de la Cité. And at the 1999 census, only 1,327 people still lived on the Île de la Cité. That's a population density of only 5,869 inh. per km², which is quite low (in 1999 the average density of the City of Paris proper, the 20 arrondissements, was 24,437 inh. per km²; in other words the Île de la Cité has a density of population 4 times lower than the 20 arrondissements around it).

To sum up the population density on the Île de la Cité, the historical heart of Paris:
1858: 66,342 inh. per km²
1868: 22,114 inh. per km²
1999: 5,869 inh. per km²

There are of course more people there during the day (people working at the Palace of Justice, Prefecture of Police, and Hôtel Dieu, tourists at Notre Dame), but it's not exactly one of the most lively areas in Paris (workers sit inside their offices and do not make the area lively, tourists go from their buses to Notre Dame and vice versa). And as soon as the workers return home and the tourists return to their buses, it becomes totally dead. It's as dead as the City of London at night.
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Originally Posted by Luli Pop View Post
it's crazy people living in HLM in postwar suburbs of Paris wanting to convert the beautyful parts of the city into something looking like Velizy-Vilacoublay
I livee in the Haussmannian heart of Paris, in one of the wealthiest, poshest neighborhood you could ever imagine.
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Old October 5th, 2010, 11:20 PM   #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brisavoine View Post
Ludicrous comment!
Thanks !

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Originally Posted by brisavoine View Post
I think it's precisely the people who come from outside who have a better vision of Paris, because they are not le nez dans le guidon, they have more perspective than native people who've only known Haussmannian Paris all their life.
Oh, again, thank Brisavoine ! 'cause I didn't know I was raised in a Haussmann building, for example (actually I wasn't), I didn't know that I have only learned to know/see the Haussmann/Second Empire style (not to metion school of architecture, several years ago I admit), and obviously I've never lived overseas....
Quoi qu'il en soit c'est à se demander qui est le plus ridicule de nous deux, et qui porte des jugements/présomptions grotesques, M. le gardien de "l'esprit de Paris" !!

Thanks god, you live in Paris now, then the whole population of Paris (past, present and future ) is going to be enlightened by your timeless universal knowledge !

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Originally Posted by brisavoine View Post
The spirit of Paris, as these pictures perfectly show.......
Thanks parcdesprinces to have posted them..... ...no obviously not.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by brisavoine View Post
Now it's just ludicrous that the same Parisians want to freeze the city in its Hausmannian state
Parisians like me ? If so, please tell me, where did I write something like that ??? 'cause this is far from what I think !

Anyway.....

-My first post in this thread :
Pictures I wanted to share + few words in order to locate them (historically and geographically) !


-My second post in this thread:
Just a synthesis of what I read in the previous pages here (and in many other threads in the French Forum BTW).. You disagree ?? OK, all right, let's talk about that ! But no need to be offensive (e.g. "Ludicrous comment" etc etc)
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Old October 6th, 2010, 12:22 AM   #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brisavoine View Post
To sum up the population density on the Île de la Cité, the historical heart of Paris:
1858: 66,342 inh. per km²
1868: 22,114 inh. per km²
1999: 5,869 inh. per km²

There are of course more people there during the day (people working at the Palace of Justice, Prefecture of Police, and Hôtel Dieu, tourists at Notre Dame), but it's not exactly one of the most lively areas in Paris (workers sit inside their offices and do not make the area lively, tourists go from their buses to Notre Dame and vice versa). And as soon as the workers return home and the tourists return to their buses, it becomes totally dead. It's as dead as the City of London at night.
I think that's a sad fact for many European cities. What were once residential areas were taken over by retail outlets or organisations and the people got shoved out into the suburbs. Or when apartments were knocked down shops were built in their place. Many cities in the UK are no-go areas at night-time.
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Old October 6th, 2010, 12:27 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by Mr Bricks View Post
Yeah slum clearing did take place and old streets like Holywell Street disappeared. Still, London was never modernised in an orderly fashion like Paris, not even after the great fire. The street plan looks very similar toady.
Very true!

Here's Wren's plan for London after the Great Fire.

http://www.oldlondonmaps.com/viewspages/0345.html

As the website says, it anticipates by nearly 200 years the boulevards of Paris and other European capitals. The medieval street plan would've been swept away and wide roads would've radiated from certain key places and piazzas. It would've been quite incredible.
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Old October 6th, 2010, 01:39 AM   #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfpaw View Post
Very true!
As the website says, it anticipates by nearly 200 years the boulevards of Paris and other European capitals. The medieval street plan would've been swept away and wide roads would've radiated from certain key places and piazzas. It would've been quite incredible.
Would have been ceci, would have been cela.... etc etc.....: Yes, certainly !
But, Paris: IS !



Great urban plan though !
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Old October 6th, 2010, 01:51 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by parcdesprinces View Post
Anyway.....
Tu attaques les gens et tu te moques d'eux, il faut t'attendre à ce qu'ils réagissent mon gars.
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Old October 6th, 2010, 02:05 AM   #168
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De qui tu parles ?? de toi ?? (si oui, alors ça fait 1 gen, pas plus )

Et je ne vois pas où était la "moquerie" dont tu parles.. (l'attaque, en revanche oui.. mais je l'assume)
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Old October 6th, 2010, 02:22 AM   #169
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Des commentaires sur la déperdition de population et de vie de la Cité ?
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Old October 6th, 2010, 07:56 PM   #170
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I have some questions;
-How did Napoleon convinced everyone in Paris to leave their homes and demolish them? Did he pay them or forced them?
-How did they demolish buildings? (I'm assuming there were no bulldozers back then)
-Didn't anyone resist?
-How much Frank/money spent on this project?

Thanks in advance
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Old October 8th, 2010, 09:36 AM   #171
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Interesting to see so many old pictures from Paris.
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Old October 8th, 2010, 10:18 PM   #172
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The destructions of Haussmann.

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Old October 8th, 2010, 11:29 PM   #173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brisavoine View Post
Des commentaires sur la déperdition de population et de vie de la Cité ?
Any comments ?

Well, about population I don't have an opinion, but about life in the district I don't agree, because there is a life: An hospital (one of the best, and most famous in France in several specialities) with a life 24H just like all big hospitals, the Court of Justice of Paris with thousands of people working there, the Prefecture de Police with hundreds of people working there, the Flower Market which is very famous, and of course the Notre-Dame Cathedral which is, in addition of its Religious life, a high place for culture with many great concerts there.

So, IMO it's not that bad for a such small district, especially when it's surrounded by several very busy districts located 5 minutes walk away.




------------------------------------------




Anyway, here are some other pics of the pre-Haussmann Paris (or during/just after Haussmann works) and taken by Charles Marville.
I extracted the recent views from Google street view or found them on flickr.



Île de la Cité-Rue de la Colombe & Rue des Ursins, IVe Arr. (1866)
Formerly Rue-Basse-des-Ursins & Rue des Ursins. These streets and buildings still exist.








Boulevard Henri IV, IVe Arr. (1877)
During Haussmann works.






Avenue de l'Opéra, Ier & IIe Arr. (1874 & 1875)
The Avenue, here during Haussmann works, has replaced a district which was a high place of prostitution and gambling and also districts named "La butte Saint-Roch" and "La butte des Moulins".








Avenue Rapp & Rue St-Dominique, VIIe Arr. (1877)






Avenue du Général-Leclerc, XIVe Arr. (around 1870)
Formerly Avenue d’Orléans.






Rue de Rivoli & Hôtel de Ville, Ier & IVe Arr. (1877)
The first part of this street was open during Napoleon I's reign, the second part (on the pic below) during the Second Empire/Haussmann works. On the left of the first pic (+ the fourth pic, 1877) we can see the reconstruction of the City Hall of Paris after the Communards set fire to the original Renaissance building during the Franco-Prussian War (third pic, 1871).










Rue Beaubourg, IIIe & IVe Arr. (1866)
The buildings on the right of the street are still there.






Rue Fresnel, Ve Arr. (1865)
This street doesn't exist anymore.






Rue du Jardinet, VIe Arr. (1865)
This street is now a dead end.






Palais du Louvre-Place du Carrousel, Ier Arr. (1865)
Before, Place du Carrousel (in front of the former Palais des Tuileries) was full of private houses & buildings. We can see the Palais Royal on the background of the first pic because the Rivoli Wing (second pic) of the Louvre Palace was not built yet.






Rue Champlain (Boulevard Malesherbes), VIIIe Arr. (1858)
This "street" was part of a miserable slum known as "La Petite Pologne" ("Little Poland"). This area is now crossed by the quite elegant and posh Boulevard Malesherbes.





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Last edited by parcdesprinces; October 9th, 2010 at 07:22 PM.
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Old October 9th, 2010, 12:35 AM   #174
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Fascinating!
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Old October 9th, 2010, 12:35 AM   #175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brisavoine View Post
The destructions of Haussmann.

I'm sorry but it's quite a bad example !
The completion of the Louvre Palace and its famous "Grand dessein" is one of greatest achievements of the Second Empire. The "Grand Dessein" of the Louvre has nothing to do with Haussmann nor Napoleon III, it was simply a dream had by Henri IV....... and each successive sovereign made his own contribution in order to complete it, including Napoleon III.
The last part (construction of the Rivoli Wing, which includes the Pavillon Richelieu) started during Napoleon I's reign and was completed by Napoleon III, that's why the private houses built inside the Louvre Palace had to be demolished (especially since these houses had nothing to do there).

Last edited by parcdesprinces; October 9th, 2010 at 07:51 AM.
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Old October 9th, 2010, 01:55 AM   #176
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1789: 16,526 inhabitants
(density: 73,124 inh. per km²/189,390 inh. per sq. mile)
[img]http://i43.************/2ijn909.jpg[/img]

1999: 1,327 inhabitants
(density: 5,869 inh. per km²/15,201 inh. per sq. mile)
[img]http://i39.************/s26snd.jpg[/img]
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Old October 9th, 2010, 02:11 AM   #177
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6000 inhab per km2 is enough, otherwise it would be surpopulation.

anyways your numbers aren't good. a square mile is not more tha the double of a km2.

and Ile de la Cite is 26 hectaires
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Old October 9th, 2010, 06:02 PM   #178
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It seems that part near Notre Dame de Paris is untouched. Would be interesting to see photos.
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Old October 9th, 2010, 06:15 PM   #179
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Who provided the buildings' owners money to renovate their buildings into Haussmann style?
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Old October 9th, 2010, 06:42 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by Luli Pop View Post
6000 inhab per km2 is enough, otherwise it would be surpopulation.

anyways your numbers aren't good. a square mile is not more tha the double of a km2.

and Ile de la Cite is 26 hectaires
A square mile is 1,609 * 1,609 = 2,59 sq. Km
So, yes, it is more than double a square kilometer.
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