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Old February 1st, 2010, 04:35 PM   #101
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They can provide urban mobility, not rural mobility. I doubt you can go to any farm, remote outspot, mountain pass, "in the middle of nothing" field by public transportation.

And, no, a twice-daily service is not an alternative. We ought to exercise our rights to be individualistic enough not to stick ourselves to "oh, want to go to that remote beach, you can go at 8 AM or at 3 PM.".

But that is another discussion. As for "lack of clout", automobile industry employs, pays taxes, innovates and exerts political pressure on governments on my behalf.
minimum service in most european countryside is 3/4 services per day ... PLUS a "transport-on-call" redundant service.

Aditionally you can just CALL A plucking CAB/TAXI.
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Old February 1st, 2010, 04:38 PM   #102
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Actually the Swiss and German public transport systems reach everywhere within Switzerland and Germany often with hourly frequencies. Public buses in Spain and Greece do get you to remote beaches in Spain and Greece during the hours when most normal people would like to enjoy the sun and the sea. Try driving your all terrain car up in the mountains




Sure they do when they fail and bankrupt and of course badly need government bailouts all over the world
Would you mind explaining to HIM and to ME what is a "remote beach" in Spain ???


Most places where there's actually SAND have a LARGE BUS station in (at most) 1000m boundary.
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Old February 1st, 2010, 04:44 PM   #103
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I did not support GM bailout as much as I didn't support Alitalia bailout and Trenitalia "revamp" with taxpayer money.

I do not believe in conspirations, like the one that GM "destroyed" public transport systems in US. If they legally bought such companies, then private, and decided for greater shareholder profit to shut them down, and did it according to the laws of that time, there is nothing to punish those companies about. Remember: back then, oil cost US$ 3 per barrel, and electricity far more than today.

This is other discussion better left to the City Issues subforum: how dismantling crap transit systems opened the way for the realization of the American dream of a suburban house with a car in its garage.
Greedy corporations ultimatelly FAIL



GM is a very good example of one company who had everything to suceed but instead choose the down-to-the-depths-of-hell methods ...
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Old February 1st, 2010, 07:06 PM   #104
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If someone doesn't want to have a driver's license, it is their option, but when I was 16 there was no way I could drive, yet I still paid all the taxes, directly (VAT on college prep books and games) or indirectly.
What the hell are you trying to say exactly?

Driving is a choice, not some "God-given" human rights covered in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. You do have the rights to choose to drive. You think that people do not get your message. We do actually; we see that you would kill to drive.
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Old February 1st, 2010, 07:49 PM   #105
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These next-generation drive-by-wire cars have been on the horizon for how many decades now?
On the other hand, driverless subway/metro cars are in operations now

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Old February 1st, 2010, 07:50 PM   #106
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Teenagers might be more restless because they are beings under development, to say so, but at age 15 most of them already have the biological skills needed to operate a car.
It's not the biological skills that bother me, its their psychological skills. And they are closely connnected to their personal development right at this age.


Btw.: If you so mad about individual traffic (=driving), why do you want rail to fail? So taht the additional cars gridlock your loved roads?
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Old February 1st, 2010, 09:25 PM   #107
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I don't want railways to fail, I want they to suceed under a for-profit, unregulated framework like airlines. Let them compete and cut each other (companies') throats to death, and see market equilibrium and the hidden hand operating at full force over tracks, to the extent it is possible.
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Old February 1st, 2010, 10:07 PM   #108
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I don't want railways to fail, I want they to suceed under a for-profit, unregulated framework like airlines. Let them compete and cut each other (companies') throats to death, and see market equilibrium and the hidden hand operating at full force over tracks, to the extent it is possible.
In fact, the railroad industry is not as regulated as it seems and the airline industry is not as deregulated as it seems. On the other hand, airlines actually did not get passengers to the destinations they wanted to go with the the frequencies they desired before the deregulation while railways today in Western Europe and selected Asian countries bring passengers to their destinations with shuttle frequencies. DB, Thalys, Eurostar, Renfe, SNCF, Trenitalia and the rail operators in the UK are managing their capacities with "airline-style" capacity, revenue and yield management on all of their intercity routes.

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Old February 2nd, 2010, 09:02 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
I don't want railways to fail, I want they to suceed under a for-profit, unregulated framework like airlines. Let them compete and cut each other (companies') throats to death, and see market equilibrium and the hidden hand operating at full force over tracks, to the extent it is possible.
You want railways to succeed for the fat-cat share holders, i.e. fail for the people.

Markets are always self-distoring when completely left to their own devices.

As for why it's naive to think railways can be run like Tesco's supermarkets, I might as well have been banging my head against a brick wall.

How do you coordinate train paths when you allow private companies to do what they wish?
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Old February 3rd, 2010, 05:56 AM   #110
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Hey Suburbanist, looky here



Looks like these people would appreciate some of your expertise

The picture was taken recently at Dongguan Station, China. The station master was subsequently canned for allowing passengers to be boarded in this rather, ah, "direct" manner.
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Old February 3rd, 2010, 02:56 PM   #111
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You want railways to succeed for the fat-cat share holders, i.e. fail for the people.

Markets are always self-distoring when completely left to their own devices.

As for why it's naive to think railways can be run like Tesco's supermarkets, I might as well have been banging my head against a brick wall.

How do you coordinate train paths when you allow private companies to do what they wish?
As the track managment authority, you do the following:

1. Establish a short-term cycle (120, 180 days) to reorganize all traffic rights.

2. Request companies to submit their service plans, individually.

3. Competitive put slots for bid, dinamically, so companies can pay to have the traffic rights where there is more demand than track or station capacity. Dinamic bidding is used frequently in allocation of airwave rights, where intracompany coordination is important.

4. In slots where there is no excessive demand, only the track fee would be charged, in slots that are "overbooked", companies would outbid one another for the traffic rights.

I don't think train services from different companies have to be, necessarily, coordinated. Airlines or airlines' alliances don't coordinate their flights when competing directly. Indeed, they schedule their competing flights to undercut demand for other airlines.

Bear in mind that regional privatization is nothing what I have in mind: giving a company "x" rights to operate a pre-defined schedule with pre-defined rolling stock is not real private competition, but indeed some private contract for public services.

If there is no demand, I really don't care that some people travelling by train in odd routes between unusual origin/destination points couldn't have a way to travel fast. It is makert, and they can always get into their cars if they want to.
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Old February 3rd, 2010, 03:36 PM   #112
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If there is no demand, I really don't care that some people travelling by train in odd routes between unusual origin/destination points couldn't have a way to travel fast. It is makert, and they can always get into their cars if they want to.
They can always get in to their cars. That assumes everybody has a car. It also assumes as a given that you compete against the marginal utility of a car. However, if you provide a service that can completely _replace_ a car you can charge a lot more money for it. You said you wanted profits? Well, SBB is profitable. Trenitalia isn't...

Another problem with your proposal is that you forget that coordinating rail services has high positive externalities. It might be better for a company to schedule it's service a few minutes before that of a competitor (in the short run at least), however, for society as a whole more services spread over a larger part of the day has a higher utility. This will however not necessarily happen by itself. Because often externalities are not easily internalised an efficient solution not always arises if you leave things solely to the market.
It is quite possible for a company to be profitable and at the same time make us all less well off...
Integration of long distance services in regional services is also often needed to make the service profitable. I don't think the Basel - Köln ICE service would be profitable if one was banned from using it for going grom Basel to Freiburg. However try implementing yield management on what is essentially a local trip. Another example are the Zürich - Paris TGVs that also take commuters from Zürich to Basel. If they didn't they would never have gotten a fast path from Zürich to Basel...
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Old February 3rd, 2010, 07:00 PM   #113
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I don't think train services from different companies have to be, necessarily, coordinated. Airlines or airlines' alliances don't coordinate their flights when competing directly. Indeed, they schedule their competing flights to undercut demand for other airlines.
There's something called paths. If the paths are not coordinated then the line cannot be used to its full capacity.

Quote:
Bear in mind that regional privatization is nothing what I have in mind: giving a company "x" rights to operate a pre-defined schedule with pre-defined rolling stock is not real private competition, but indeed some private contract for public services.

If there is no demand, I really don't care that some people travelling by train in odd routes between unusual origin/destination points couldn't have a way to travel fast. It is makert, and they can always get into their cars if they want to.
Lines in Europe frequently ARE saturated, by natural demand not artificial oversupply. We've just proven 'real private competition' does NOT lead to the most efficient use of resources, what why do you go on defending it?
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Old February 3rd, 2010, 07:30 PM   #114
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Another side-effect: If you establish short-term bidding cycles for pathes, you take long- and even middle-term planning security from all companies. As a result, they will invest as little as possible because they're constantly on the risk to loose their income when being overbid or - probably in most cases - won't enter such a risky system at all. And in the end you're worse off than before, sitting in an overpriced and crappy train without dcent service.
Keep in mind that there's a difference between buying some computers for your web-based company and buying and maintaining full train sets, employ skilled workers and provide the infrastructure needed to sell your tickets.
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Old February 3rd, 2010, 08:14 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post

...

I don't think train services from different companies have to be, necessarily, coordinated. Airlines or airlines' alliances don't coordinate their flights when competing directly. Indeed, they schedule their competing flights to undercut demand for other airlines.

...

If there is no demand, I really don't care that some people travelling by train in odd routes between unusual origin/destination points couldn't have a way to travel fast. It is makert, and they can always get into their cars if they want to.
Don´t make up nonsense about airline scheduling because what you said does not reflect how the reality works.

Many people do not want to have their own cars and frankly they cannot care less what kind of hell car owners are in.

We live in the imperfect market everywhere. If you will kill to drive, you will make car ownership work for you in the imperfect market. Cars also distort the "market" dynamics, do not bother for a moment to tell us that cars are the natural order of things in the "market."
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Old February 3rd, 2010, 11:39 PM   #116
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They can always get in to their cars. That assumes everybody has a car. It also assumes as a given that you compete against the marginal utility of a car. However, if you provide a service that can completely _replace_ a car you can charge a lot more money for it. You said you wanted profits? Well, SBB is profitable. Trenitalia isn't...

Another problem with your proposal is that you forget that coordinating rail services has high positive externalities. It might be better for a company to schedule it's service a few minutes before that of a competitor (in the short run at least), however, for society as a whole more services spread over a larger part of the day has a higher utility. This will however not necessarily happen by itself. Because often externalities are not easily internalised an efficient solution not always arises if you leave things solely to the market.
It is quite possible for a company to be profitable and at the same time make us all less well off...
Integration of long distance services in regional services is also often needed to make the service profitable. I don't think the Basel - Köln ICE service would be profitable if one was banned from using it for going grom Basel to Freiburg. However try implementing yield management on what is essentially a local trip. Another example are the Zürich - Paris TGVs that also take commuters from Zürich to Basel. If they didn't they would never have gotten a fast path from Zürich to Basel...
Competitors coordinated schedules amount to oligopoly power. I'm for-profit as much as I'm for competition, the kind that kills companies here and there and brings stifly cost controls and price wars, ultimately bringing benefit to costumers.

Coordinating trains from different competitors with the goal of making reasonably possible to live without a car is a lock-in strategy contraty to free market principles and that couldn't happen without anti-trust exemptions (which national coordinated contracted private services ammount to).
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Old February 3rd, 2010, 11:57 PM   #117
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Don´t make up nonsense about airline scheduling because what you said does not reflect how the reality works.

Many people do not want to have their own cars and frankly they cannot care less what kind of hell car owners are in.

We live in the imperfect market everywhere. If you will kill to drive, you will make car ownership work for you in the imperfect market. Cars also distort the "market" dynamics, do not bother for a moment to tell us that cars are the natural order of things in the "market."
Self-selection again: people living without cars usually come from the same well-defined and small demographic groups, and tend to exaggerate their perception of reality.

In EU-15, more than 85% of houlseholds have at least one car. Then you have 15% of too poor households, too incapacitated, illegal immigrants who cannot buy cars and all the yupster living in ultra-dense megacities who, as you said, don't mind to have a car.

Now, please, in a context where cars and drivers are paying cost in-par with their direct costs like road expansion and maitenance, health insurance equivalent to injuries and deaths in crashes etc. (don't come with "impact on livable streets and neighborhood retailing", as nobody is entitled to claim others patronage or errands on their streets), how would car drivers being there distorting the market?

The only real issue with car ownership is the sunken costs, as most driving costs are incurred in advance and are relatively fixed regardless of amount driven or individual trip decision (insurance, license tax, monthly payments). Some countries are working on this issue, like road taxes charged according to time and place and distance driving by menas of a comprehensive GPS "blind" monitoring, like the The Netherlands.

Markets are not perfect, but medium and long distance passenger trains service is not or should be not, for the sake of free market principles, treated as something absolutelly essential like it were proper disposition of nuclear waste, fire protection services, garbage collection, ambullance service and so on. It is a public non-essential service, contrary to road transport.
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Old February 4th, 2010, 02:40 AM   #118
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Self-selection again: people living without cars usually come from the same well-defined and small demographic groups, and tend to exaggerate their perception of reality.
The same can be said about hardcore motorists.

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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
In EU-15, more than 85% of houlseholds have at least one car. Then you have 15% of too poor households, too incapacitated, illegal immigrants who cannot buy cars and all the yupster living in ultra-dense megacities who, as you said, don't mind to have a car.
"Households." Misinterpretation alarm! "Households" range from 1-person households in northern European cities to 10-member households in southern European surburbs. Many 1-person households in northern European cities choose not to have cars; many of such households are not financially struggling immigrants.


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Now, please, in a context where cars and drivers are paying cost in-par with their direct costs like road expansion and maitenance, health insurance equivalent to injuries and deaths in crashes etc. (don't come with "impact on livable streets and neighborhood retailing", as nobody is entitled to claim others patronage or errands on their streets), how would car drivers being there distorting the market?

...

Markets are not perfect, but medium and long distance passenger trains service is not or should be not, for the sake of free market principles, treated as something absolutelly essential like it were proper disposition of nuclear waste, fire protection services, garbage collection, ambullance service and so on. It is a public non-essential service, contrary to road transport.

Isn´t long distance driving really just a luxury as well, according to the twisted logics you have been using on long-distance rail travel? In Europe, it is more likely that drivers drive long distance on holidays.

By the way, it is indisputable that your English skills are very much left to be desired with numerous misspells and misuse of words. It is very hard to take someone struggling with flawed logics and imperfect command of a language seriously.

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Old February 4th, 2010, 03:37 AM   #119
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Another side-effect: If you establish short-term bidding cycles for pathes, you take long- and even middle-term planning security from all companies. As a result, they will invest as little as possible because they're constantly on the risk to loose their income when being overbid or - probably in most cases - won't enter such a risky system at all. And in the end you're worse off than before, sitting in an overpriced and crappy train without dcent service.
Keep in mind that there's a difference between buying some computers for your web-based company and buying and maintaining full train sets, employ skilled workers and provide the infrastructure needed to sell your tickets.
In all cases, as one can read from my earlier posts in this thread, I favor a public agency taking the role as owner of the tracks and stations.

Rolling stock is surely expensive, but is also very interchangeable, like aircrafts. Therefore, major asset leasing companies would rise on the market of buying dozens or hundreds of rolling stock units from major suppliers, then leasing them to different trains companies who could then rent (instead of only having the feasible option of buying it) according to their needs. You can increase the bidding cycles too and rely mostly on automatick ticket selling - there is no rational need for dozens of staffed counters to sell train tickets in the 2.0 e-commerce age.
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Old February 4th, 2010, 04:04 AM   #120
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...
Rolling stock is surely expensive, but is also very interchangeable, like aircrafts. Therefore, major asset leasing companies would rise on the market of buying dozens or hundreds of rolling stock units from major suppliers, then leasing them to different trains companies who could then rent (instead of only having the feasible option of buying it) according to their needs. You can increase the bidding cycles too and rely mostly on automatick ticket selling - there is no rational need for dozens of staffed counters to sell train tickets in the 2.0 e-commerce age.
Saying rolling stocks are as "interchangeable" as commercial jetliners are is like saying huge American SUVs made for the US roads can navigate in Japan just fine.

Rail operators sure understand 2.0 e-commerce much better than you do. For example DB has been cutting ticket sales agents and adding automated ticket machines for years. DB has overhauled its website and online ticket service once again this year. When you buy a ticket from a real DB ticket agent or have your ticket mailed to you, you pay a service fee.

There are a myriad of reasons why real ticket agents are still needed. For example, Trenitalia is notorious for rejecting credit cards issued outside the EU on its website and through its automated ticket machines.

By the way, car drivers who cannot even properly walk with their own feet can be "re-educated" to use public transport.

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