TRANSPORT | Metrolink - Future Phases & Fantasy Extensions

[Gdogg371]

by politics do they mean, the other council's dont want the line going to the trafford centre or the councils wont stump up the cash?

[Johnny de Rivative]

Johnny’s Big Bang

OLDHAM ROCHDALE LINE PART 2

Pandora’s Box and the Phoenix of Victoriana

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...7&page=55#1082

xx images, updated to June 2012

The side entrance to Victoria station hasn’t changed much over the years, but in this 1973 shot, the ‘hole in the wall’ for Metrolink was still a couple of decades in the future :-


Jeffrey Wells, The Oldham Loop #2, Foxline ISBN 1 870119 68 1

The history of Victoria is obviously too big a tale for here, but here’s a flavour of the past spaces now occupied by Metrolink – behind the same entrance sixty years earlier in 1913 :-


Stanley Hall, Rail Centres #20 Manchester, Booklaw ISBN 1-901945-29-4

Well someone had to do it! :-


ibid





For over a century, Victoria station quietly went about its daily business as a major railway terminal, albeit reducing in volume and compass in the post-Beeching decades. Always difficult to get a full shot of the magnificent 1902 Edwardian Façade, the new Chetham’s School of Music c21 building now makes it well-nigh impossible except from the air, as in this Wintertime view from webbaviation.co.uk :-


Breedon ISBN 978-185983-557-9

The 1990s, however, brought a series of upheavals for poor old Victoria, a Pandora’s box of brutalism and brutality at the end of the twentieth century, from which nevertheless great hopes for the future finally emerged. The first upheaval was the construction of Metrolink in 1991, commencing with the building of a concrete wall between its tracks and the rest of the station, here under construction :-





The first hope was realised when Metrolink broke out into the wide world the following year, 1992. By this time plans for the conversion of the Loop line to Oldham and Rochdale via the same portal had already been around for several years :-



However, may more years were to pass before the Oldham/Rochdale line became a reality. In the meantime, Victoria underwent further upheaval in 1994 following the introduction of the Windsor Link, which re-routed many services from the North-West to Piccadilly. Victoria was drastically reduced in size, and the remaining through platforms were ‘modernised’ in a concrete environment redolent of the Undercroft at Piccadilly :-



This newly subterraneanised area was designed to support a large superstructure above, which turned out to be the MEN Arena, seen here in 2008 with a Metrolink T68 in the foreground :-



The third upheaval in the 1990s was the IRA bomb which destroyed most of the remaining roof in 1999, still in tatters in 2008 and here failing to shelter a 2000 series T68a, not often to be seen here in those days as they were designed for the Piccadilly<>Eccles line. I’ve never quite figured out why Manchester now puts boundary signs in the City Centre and not at the boundaries! :-



But in March 2010 the trams were continuing to ply their trade through the wreckage and serve the Lowryesque commuters, behind the protective brick walls :-







The M5000 bananas brought more splashes of colour to this faded old lady – here are four separate rail liveries in February 2012 :-



Can you spot the T68?



An old platform face can be seen as a ‘banana’ enters under Cheetham Hill Road bound for St Werburgh’s Road in February 2012. Much development is planned for the Fish Dock area, by the arches in the lower background of this shot :-



This is what is now planned for the derelict Fish Dock :-



And here is the associated plan for Victoria’s interface with the Metrolink Second City Crossing. I think the crossover spaghetti near the ‘hole in the wall’ will give maximum possibilities for turnback working in both directions, and coping with exigencies. And of course this arrangement also allows for the possibility that both Bury <> Alti and Rochdale <> South Mcr can use either 1CC or 2CC as required. The diagram also reveals the fact that a tram in the centre road will be able to open its doors on both sides at the same time, additionally offering the potential for cross-platform interchange for transfer between Bury <> Rochdale lines :-



In February 2012, part of the future has already arrived, adding to a potted history of variegated architectures visible from the station :-



But although glass, steel and concrete can be marvellous in themselves, how thankful we are for the preservation of these magnificent pieces of Victoriana :-









And how many station buffets have lounge settees and a pool table? :-





Looking back in time, to the West of Victoria lie the ruins of the former Exchange Station, and a remnant of the longest shared Platform ’11 Middle’ - probably now gone for ever . . . but from Pandora’s Box hope rises eternal, and main line electrification to Liverpool will soon be under way through here :-



On 7th July 2011 the South Manchester Line opened between Chorlton St Werburgh’s Road and Victoria, occasionally using Millbank headshunt as a turnback siding :-


c/- vicny

This one has eschewed the siding, however, and after terminating at Victoria is proceeding towards the camera to turn back at Queen’s Road depot :-



By May 2012, however, both these routine reversing options were in their last days, as preparations were made for through running to Oldham Mumps Temporary terminus :-



Finally, on 13th June 2012, the great day came :-


c/- nymanic

Heading East :-


c/- tonyh1

One day back in the in the 1960s, another little boy gazed out Eastwards on all our futures . . .



Little could he have imagined what was to follow half a century later :-











The best is yet to come!!



Continues in part 3 http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...7&page=56#1112

Pictures from first day of operation to Mumps Temporary :

[WatcherZero]

Its before my time too but as I understood it as part of the planning conditions for the Trafford Centre Peel had to fund a large chunk of a Metrolink line from Pomona to the Trafford centre (Why Pomona was built with the turnout for a Trafford line). They agreed to this then started stalling for a couple of years by asking the Trafford Council for a study on whether a guided bus route could be done instead or even if a Monorail could be done. The council then kind of forgot about it and stopped pressing them to actually do it.

[Gdogg371]

Originally Posted by WatcherZero

Its before my time too but as I understood it as part of the planning conditions for the Trafford Centre Peel had to fund a large chunk of a Metrolink line from Pomona to the Trafford centre (Why Pomona was built with the turnout for a Trafford line). They agreed to this then started stalling for a couple of years by asking the Trafford Council for a study on whether a guided bus route could be done instead or even if a Monorail could be done. The council then kind of forgot about it and stopped pressing them to actually do it.

we were told in gcse geography that peel had the money set aside assuming that would be a condition of the site getting planning permission, but the council never asked because they didnt want to put peel off the idea of building the trafford centre at dumplington.

[link_road_17/7]

Originally Posted by Gdogg371

we were told in gcse geography that peel had the money set aside assuming that would be a condition of the site getting planning permission, but the council never asked because they didnt want to put peel off the idea of building the trafford centre at dumplington.

IIRC, the line to Broadway and Dumplington (then known as Phase 1b) was supposed to run continuously after the Phase 1a works had finished.

Unfortunately, the economy went into a bit of a nosedive at the time (Black Wednesday?) and about then it was decided that Central Government (Whitehall) would make the decision on whether The Dump got built.

So the inquiry took place, but the Section 106 agreement only provided for widening the M63, and not the construction of Metrolink. This was a serious failure of the Planning Inquiry (as well as approving the whole scheme!).

[Wirlie G]

Tried to post yesterday but obviously failed.

Manchester City Counil have apparently been blocking the TC line for some time. They don't want to see more people deserting the city centre and heading out of town.

Apparently Peel have been willing to pay up for quite some time.

[Priscilla QOTD]

Really? Where did you hear that?

How is it possible for MCC to block it? Surely if GMPTE decide they want to build the line, they can do? No part of the new line is within the MCC boundary, so how can they stop it?

I don't think a line to that hell hole on the M60 would necessarily encourage people away from the city centre; I'm sure just as many would use the line to access the city centre as would to leave it. It would also provide an invaluable link to one of the largest sources of employment in the region.

If this rumour is true, then I think MCC are being very short sighted.

[nerd]

Originally Posted by Wirlie G

Tried to post yesterday but obviously failed.

Manchester City Counil have apparently been blocking the TC line for some time. They don't want to see more people deserting the city centre and heading out of town.

Apparently Peel have been willing to pay up for quite some time.

Nothing to do with Manchester City Council - at least not directly. The politics referred to by the Peel spokesman related to the complicated manoeverings around the consturction and finance of the Eccles line (to which Peel also made a small contribution). At that time Metrolink was still being financed on a Design, Build, Maintain and Operate basis; the consortium building the line also had the power to operate it, and use proftis from the operation to repay construction loans. So the Eccles line was financed partly by a central government grant, partly by Peel, partly from the sale of Manchester City Council's bus operations, It was then proposed that the next stage would be to build the Trafford Centre line, which would be paid half by Peel, and half by the then operating consortium borrowing money against the profits of the Eccles line. But the Eccles operating profits did'nt happen, mainly becuase the privatised bus operations undercut the trams (and were faster outside of peak periods). The old consortium dissolved, and the one that was reconstituted refused to pick up on the agreement to contirbue funds to the Trafford Centre line. This is where the City Council came in; Peel thought that some cash from the sale of the bus services in Manchester (or otherwise from the sale of the Airport) should be used to pay for the construction of the Trafford Centre Line. The City Council said that the Trafford Centre line could only be built if funded entirely without public sector investment. To a degree this was relaxed in the TIF bid, in the vain hope of getting Peel onside; but now the shutters are up again. What appears entirely precluded is that operating profits from the extended Metrolink would be available, as these are now needed to fund phase 3b and 2CC.

[Wirlie G]

I've heard from Trafford Councillors that they and MCC never quite saw eye to eye on the matter of trams to the TC.

[Johnny de Rivative]

Thanks nerd for that very full & erudite response to my question -it more than fills in the gaps in my memory - much appreciated!

It also unravels the mystery of my surprise when the Trafford Centre proposal was suddenly resurrected in the TIF bid of 2008, after having been apparently dead in the water for a number of years.

I am wondering now if the emergence of more recent Peel projects such as Trafford Wharf, City of Salford Stadium (Reds) and Port Salford, have created new incentives for Peel to re-assess their position vis a vis Metrolink - more of a 'job lot' so to speak? Politically, I guess the ball is now more in the court of Salford CC rather than Mcr, but I can't help feeling there is quite a lot going on behind the scenes.

[heatonparkincakes]

There is alot going on behind the scenes,

but trust me getting a tram line to a shopping centre which is vastly patronised by car users and would probably remains so after a line was built is not a priority.

[Chogmook]

The TC should give up some of its car park for a park & ride into the city centre.

[heatonparkincakes]

Or perhaps a minimal charge to park there to offset the environmental damage that is ringfenced for public transport.

[link_road_17/7]

About time. I reckon if Workplace Parking Levy is a success, it should be widened out to retail superstores and out of town shopping centres.

It'd be a dead easy tax to administer, just charge the owner/developer, as payback for hooking the public on cars, ruining our town centres and getting us obese, whilst making tidy profits.

After all, (most) people don't mind paying for carrier bags through their shopping purchases, so charge them for their parking through their shopping.

(I ask for no commission, Chancellor Osborne, if you do read this and decide to implement it!!).

Imagine the revenue that could be created for future phases!

[WatcherZero]

Do what they do In America and have shops validate your parking tickets when you buy something?

[AndrooGM]

Originally Posted by WatcherZero

Do what they do In America and have shops validate your parking tickets when you buy something?

That's what they do in the Lowry too, seems to work there though it's hardly comparable with the TC...

[Cherguevara]

Originally Posted by link_road_17/7

About time. I reckon if Workplace Parking Levy is a success, it should be widened out to retail superstores and out of town shopping centres.

It'd be a dead easy tax to administer, just charge the owner/developer, as payback for hooking the public on cars, ruining our town centres and getting us obese, whilst making tidy profits.

After all, (most) people don't mind paying for carrier bags through their shopping purchases, so charge them for their parking through their shopping.

(I ask for no commission, Chancellor Osborne, if you do read this and decide to implement it!!).

Imagine the revenue that could be created for future phases!

It would raise an absoloute fortune, but it would probably cost a lot to administer in a region the size of GM. For example how do you audit how many parking spaces each business provides vs. how many it pays for? Or what about the iniquity of businesses in places like Saddleworth or Partington paying for parking spaces when their employees have no good alternative but to drive to them. Would small businesses have to contribute, or would it just be larger ones? If it's the smaller ones you vastly increase admin for little benefit, but if its only larger ones would companies simply incorporate shell corporations to own car parks?

I'd like to see it explored and I'm sure these and other problems can be sorted out, but I'm not confident it would be workable on such a grand scale. Saying that taxing just out of town shopping centre parking would appear to be a breeze and would still probably raise a decent sum.

[DiscoSteve]

what a stupid tax that is - when are people going to realise we live in a car based society and economy and no amount of green tree hugging cycle riding namby pamby desires from a tiny minority is going to change that - I'm sorry but this just royally p***es me off! :-(

[link_road_17/7]

I realise that, but the 'War against the Motorist' is absolute poppycock, in real terms motoring is less expensive than in previous decades, and is cheaper than public transport. I own two cars myself, but I believe we need CHOICE, rather than being 'forced' to use either cars (because of poor PT) or PT (because of the green agenda).

How else are we going to fund future phases? I can't see a 'property' tax coming in or people willing to pay further local (transport levy) council tax rates. Can you? Willing to suggest alternatives?

Also what's with the cars = economy = growth argument? It was part of the Labour debt bubble that people leased cars they couldn't afford. How is that sustainable? Imagine if you had an extra £140+ a month to play with?

With 'localism' and introduction of the (GM) Combined Authority, I can see it potentially happening.

[nerd]

Originally Posted by Johnny de Rivative

Thanks nerd for that very full & erudite response to my question -it more than fills in the gaps in my memory - much appreciated!

It also unravels the mystery of my surprise when the Trafford Centre proposal was suddenly resurrected in the TIF bid of 2008, after having been apparently dead in the water for a number of years.

I am wondering now if the emergence of more recent Peel projects such as Trafford Wharf, City of Salford Stadium (Reds) and Port Salford, have created new incentives for Peel to re-assess their position vis a vis Metrolink - more of a 'job lot' so to speak? Politically, I guess the ball is now more in the court of Salford CC rather than Mcr, but I can't help feeling there is quite a lot going on behind the scenes.

This is 10 years old, but it still seems to sum up the postion

Funding for the extension to the Trafford Centre is still stalled. GMPTE has no objections, but will not be putting forward any local public sector funds. Peel Holdings, who own the Trafford Centre, have promised GBP23 million, and claim that the current Metrolink operator Ansaldo has offered to provide the remaining GBP50 million. But there are concerns that the Peel Holdings money is dependent on the success of a planning application with Trafford M.B.C. to develop sites near the Trafford Centre. Ansaldo have denied that they have committed themselves to funding the extension.

The issue concerned Altram, the consoritum containing Ansaldo and Serco that was formed to operate Metrolink followoing the construction of Phase 2 (the Eccles line). In taking over the DBOM contract, Altram had to buy out the previous DBOM consortium, GMML - i.e. they had to pay a capital sum to compensate GMML for the loss of profit from the remaining 12 years of their contract. That buyout was funded out of the money raised by selling Manchester's bus operations. The idea being that the continued profit stream could then service loans to construct the Trafford Centre line. But then Anslado found that the Phase 2 sysem was not making the same level of profit as Phase 1 had done, so they withdrew from Altram, which became a wholly owned subsiduary of Serco. Serco always maintained that any offer on the table to part fund the Trafford Centre lline was a private arrangement beteen Ansaldo and Peel; Peel maintained (and still maintain) that it was the responsibililty of GMPTE to make this offer binding on any successor consortium to the operating contract.

So there remain two problems; firstly who is going to pick up the majority tab for the extension? GMPTA are continuing to maintain that its up to Peel, not them, to find another commercial partner or partners; and that no public money can be invloved. Secondly, how much money will Peel put forward? Nobody now thinks the TC line could be built for £73m; the most recent figures I have seen suggest more than £150 m (which at around £25m per km seems to be about the minimum for tram construction currently in the UK). But will Peel double their offer?