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Old February 4th, 2010, 11:05 PM   #101
Johnny de Rivative
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heatonparkincakes View Post
cheers che. It now makes more sense. It would be curious to work out how they envisaged extending the Met from stockport bus station. Quite a tricky thing I'd surmise.

.
Hi Heaton, yes I have been looking at that - I have always wondered where it was intended to meet up with the old Tiviot Dale line, now that the M60 is there, and a massive escarpment.

From the shape of the blue line an Che's map, it would seem to curve Northeastwards through a very heavily built-up area on different levels, apparently through the Peel centre some way and Portwood Roundaboout. Then North East again, on a similar curve by several schools to where it would pick up the old railway on the Southern edge of Brinnington. Interesting.
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Old February 4th, 2010, 11:12 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heatonparkincakes View Post
cheers che. It now makes more sense. It would be curious to work out how they envisaged extending the Met from stockport bus station. Quite a tricky thing I'd surmise.

Now as for a tram to Cadishead/Irlam/Partington. I am not being funny, but given the area, the lack of demand, the cost and that the local electorate spoke as one on Roger the dodger, Id say there is no chance. Not even worth talking about when there is far more worthy and more likely to successful places that need a tram.
I'm not sure. I remember reading that as part of the bus station redevelopment plans space was reserved for the tram to carry on to the east, although obviously once outside the confines of the interchange I have no idea.

I can't really see a tram for Partington being viable either. I was simply commenting on the hypothetical Glazebrook line (that a village wouldn't really be a good place to terminate a tram-train line) and suggesting Cadishead/Partington as an alternative site if the tram were to be extended towards Irlam. I think it's a problem of the SRA worrying only about how to get the local trains off the mainline rails through town and not thinking how it would actually work (see the Styal tram-train for another example) as part of the Metrolink system.
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Old February 5th, 2010, 12:25 AM   #103
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I am guessing from that rather crude map that the line goes from the bus station

Chestergate
Great Underbank
Bridge St
Warren St
Gt Portwood St (past the peel centre , once mooted as the terminus)
Then under the motorway at the portwood Island/junction
Along the old line of the Tiviot Dale rail line north of the M60
Then a bridge/tunnel under the motorway in an area between Brindale Road and Arden park

Then joins onto the existing freight line at the back of Bredbury.

Just a surmise. Now anyone wishes to estimate the huge cost of this!!!
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Old February 5th, 2010, 02:55 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heatonparkincakes View Post
I am guessing from that rather crude map that the line goes from the bus station

Chestergate
Great Underbank
Bridge St
Warren St
Gt Portwood St (past the peel centre , once mooted as the terminus)
Then under the motorway at the portwood Island/junction
Along the old line of the Tiviot Dale rail line north of the M60
Then a bridge/tunnel under the motorway in an area between Brindale Road and Arden park

Then joins onto the existing freight line at the back of Bredbury.

Just a surmise. Now anyone wishes to estimate the huge cost of this!!!

I'm pretty sure the section to Tiviot Dale would cost something approaching £100million. Oldham is a similar project (on street town centre track aproximately a mile long with one expensive junction tunnel) projected to cost £84 million and has a slightly longer route, but I'm presuming that Stockport being a bit more affluent and fidly will push up the costs a bit.

Going further east using the old rail alignment will be fairly cheap. Chortlon-Didsbury is projected at £85million for a route twice the length so lets say about £50 million to be on the safe side.

Then the only other major costs are the Motorway bridge/tunnel and the resignaling to allow trams to use that piece of NR track. Sadly I have no idea how much they'd cost. The former might not be an issue if the busway has already been constructed (as it would require a bridge/tunnel).
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Old February 5th, 2010, 11:04 AM   #105
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An idea I had for an extra platform at Old Trafford.

The original platform from yesteryear is still there, although it would need some work (lengthening etc..)

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Old February 5th, 2010, 01:52 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apologiesforthedelay View Post
An idea I had for an extra platform at Old Trafford.

The original platform from yesteryear is still there, although it would need some work (lengthening etc..)

Operationally this might be a bit of a headache. At the moment I believe the plan on matchdays/etc is to have trams queueing up on the running lines (made possible through LOS operation), effectively allowing a double car set to enter Old Trafford platform as the preceeding one draws out. Having a bay platform accessed from the running lines via a conflicting (and signalled) move against the flow of services heading into town creates problems as it severely eats into the capacity. Where bay platforms/loops do exist on tram networks, they are often in between the running lines. This allows terminating services to turn short without interfering with other services (See The Forest stop on NET.)

Best regards,
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Old February 5th, 2010, 08:36 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slipdigby View Post
Operationally this might be a bit of a headache. At the moment I believe the plan on matchdays/etc is to have trams queueing up on the running lines (made possible through LOS operation), effectively allowing a double car set to enter Old Trafford platform as the preceeding one draws out. Having a bay platform accessed from the running lines via a conflicting (and signalled) move against the flow of services heading into town creates problems as it severely eats into the capacity. Where bay platforms/loops do exist on tram networks, they are often in between the running lines. This allows terminating services to turn short without interfering with other services (See The Forest stop on NET.)

Best regards,
Slip
it would probably be expensive and might not be possible engineering wise, but they would have the cross over dip under the track.
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Old February 5th, 2010, 11:43 PM   #108
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Tram-Train thinking doesnt seem to have been dropped, the Lobbying strategy for the coming year has been prepared and so to summarise.

Primary Focus
Manchester Hub, continued lobbying after report is published

Rail Lobbying
Better quantity and quality of Northern and TPE rolling stock
The need for early benefits to Manchester of the coming Rolling stock plan
The benefit of HSR to the city region
The Authoritys requirements for heavy rail beyond Northern Rail Franchise period (e.g. Want Atherton Sunday services as a requirement not a PTE subsidised extra)

Light Rail
Continue pressing the case for the future role of Tram-Train on the Greater Manchester network.
Highlight the benefits the Metrolink expansion programme will deliver to the city region (so not pushing for new projects yet)

Bus
Demonstrate to key stakeholders of the necessity for the Authority to retain the full spectrum of powers provided by the Local Transport Act 2008 – from voluntary partnership to quality contracts.
Work with Government and the transport industry to progress an integrated ticketing system for Greater Manchester that can offer benefits similar to those offered by the London Oystercard system.
Promote the benefits of coordinating bus networks with other transport modes to reduce congestion, enhance residents’ access to opportunities and reduce the carbon dependency of transport.
Continue to lobby Government to ensure that the Traffic Commissioners' offices are sufficiently well resourced and supported to allow them to effectively discharge their bus-related duties.

http://www.gmita.gov.uk/download/293...trategy_201011
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Old February 6th, 2010, 02:08 PM   #109
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Think I have mentioned this before but I would like to see an extension of the Altincham line southwards to a Park and Ride station around Ashley, with a stop at Hale and maybe a Bowdon one further south. This should also link up with the westwards extension of the airport line to link up with the mid Cheshire line. The Park and Ride would then serve the airport and large parts of south Manchester. This could then allow through running of Northern or TPE services at the airport to Chester or Crewe (if a link between the Mid Cheshire and West Coast Mainline was provided) along with potential for some Cross Country services to serve the airport via Crewe and Birmingham.

The issue of running Metrolink alongside National Rail services could be resolved slightly by not stopping National Rail services at Navigation Road or Hale (anyone travelling on the mid Cheshire Line could change at the Parkway station or Altrincham for the tram).

Also potential to provide an eastern link from the airport chord / Styal line junction to the West Coast Mainline south of Stockport providng direct services between the airport and Stockport.

Although not particularly cheap improvements, they wouldn't break the bank and would bring pretty good benefits to public transport in the south of the city and enhance the Manchester Hub proposals.
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Old February 6th, 2010, 03:48 PM   #110
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They did have a north wales and crewe airport service, they withdrew it because it was attracting few passengers, but a lof of neighbouring regions do want their lines extended with Manchester Airport to serve as a terminus.
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Old February 6th, 2010, 10:05 PM   #111
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I've been having a look on Google Maps, its seems there may be some evidence as to the location of the tracks in the Ashton Moss area. The large roundabout shows 2 track sized squares (possible place markers?) in the central reservation and then there are marks (these may be just mowing marks) around the edge of the reservation. After the roundabout near Ikea, there are more squares, but only showing 1 track. This is little news to us, but interesting nonetheless.
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Old February 7th, 2010, 04:23 PM   #112
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Site layout of Ashton Moss stop:

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Old February 7th, 2010, 04:53 PM   #113
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Quote:
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Site layout of Ashton Moss stop:

I guess I was wrong then. Sorry!

Also, are there links to any other plans in the area?
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Old February 7th, 2010, 05:08 PM   #114
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I don't think you are wrong - this is 'Ashton Moss' stop, rather than 'Ashton West', which will service Ashton Leisure Park, colloquially known as Ashton Moss!

After Ashton Moss the 'street tramway' route continues through the median strip/central reservation until the IKEA junction, where it transfers back over to a 'tramroad' alignment past Aldi, where trees and a cycle track/footpath currently exist, before terminating to the west of the Bus Station.

I think the other planning apps for the scheme are only available on paper, viewed by appointment at the Council Offices, as proposals have gone back since 1997, Tameside documents are back as far as 2005.
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Last edited by link_road_17/7; February 7th, 2010 at 05:13 PM. Reason: planning apps.
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Old February 7th, 2010, 06:08 PM   #115
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The layout for the Ashton line is included the Ashton Moss masterplan.

http://www.musedevelopments.com/media/yyyymi.jpg
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Old February 7th, 2010, 06:26 PM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by link_road_17/7 View Post
I don't think you are wrong - this is 'Ashton Moss' stop, rather than 'Ashton West', which will service Ashton Leisure Park, colloquially known as Ashton Moss!

After Ashton Moss the 'street tramway' route continues through the median strip/central reservation until the IKEA junction, where it transfers back over to a 'tramroad' alignment past Aldi, where trees and a cycle track/footpath currently exist, before terminating to the west of the Bus Station.

I think the other planning apps for the scheme are only available on paper, viewed by appointment at the Council Offices, as proposals have gone back since 1997, Tameside documents are back as far as 2005.
Ah, sorry. I guess I got them confused!
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Old February 9th, 2010, 12:11 AM   #117
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http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...297&page=6#117

Johnny’s Big Bang

EAST MANCHESTER LINE PART 7

On the Cemetery Road to Droylsden

88 images, updated to May 2012

Cemetery Road as a tramstop name is somewhat unfortunate in this location as it is surrounded by old people’s homes! (although the tramway itself will of course be a boon to anyone who may have restricted mobility). In the early years, I think the attribute of ‘local penetration’ became one of the main selling points of Metrolink as an innovation, and probably led to some unnecessarily high concentrations of stops, e.g. on the Eccles line. Perhaps “Cemetery Road” came about from a similar desire to emphasise the localised nature of a tram service, or simply in default of any other landmark nearby. However, for location purposes, in the GM A-Z the traveller is confronted with no less than 13 ‘Cemetery Roads’! I would therefore suggest that this stop should be re-named Droylsden West, to give it a more interurban and metropolitan identity. A couple of decades on from the original schools of thought, light rail planning now appears to place more emphasis on wider connectivity than local penetration - on the Airport line, for example, stop density has now been attenuated in favour of improved journey times. In this more zazzy and up-beat scenario, ‘Cemetery Road’ does seem to become even more of a localised anachronism.

Anyway, Cemetery Road it is, and as shown in this ‘before & after’ render from as far back as 1997, the tramstop looking West will involve both tracks leaving Manchester Road on the Southern side, and will occupy an area previously cleared and supplanted with trees, but also involving the demolition of another row of terraced houses :-



In the ‘after’ shot, both the trees and the row of houses have gone, but more trees will be planted at either end, here beside the newly-exposed white gable end of the Jolly Carter pub (although it never actually became whitened!) :-



This was the scene ten years later in 2007, looking East and showing the doomed houses, and doomed trees just behind the bus :-



In April 2008, like a mirage in the centre of the roadway at this point, the singular monolith of the CIS building looms far ahead, accentuating the symmetry of parallax, and looking for all the world like a ley line, except it was only built in the 1960’s! :-



In March 2009 the houses had gone, the trees at Sidebottom Street had just been felled in advance of any works, so as not to disturb the nesting season :-



By December 2009 the works compound had appeared beside the Jolly Carter on the site of the former houses :-



No symmetry of parallax was to be found in the tramlines, when they appeared at this point in August 2010! :-



September 2010 saw the first incursion into the stop site itself, the CIS building still looking on from afar (a very far!) :-



December 2010 the snows come to freeze the action again :-





The rails from the West entered the station site in the New Year of 2011 :-







August 2011, and the way East from Edge Lane now looks permanent. The Eastbound track doesn’t stop short by the Westbound bus, but veers sharply to the left among the parked cars, to allow for right turns by the Jolly Carter :-



This month also brought a surprise, with the arrival of some bright red combined overhead & lamp posts :-



They look quite splendid in the house colour allocated to Droylsden by Tameside Metropolitan Council :-



Looking back West towards Edge Lane, the tramway streetscape starts to take shape, now only lacking wires :-





Perhaps further East the poles will change to blue, Tameside’s colour for Ashton? In the meantime, still in August 2011, orange is the colour of the newly planted trees at Cemetery Road, which arrived just in time to lose their leaves for Autumn :-



This September 2011 view shows that the track level at Cemetery Road has been lowered, in order to reduce the height differential of the platforms and their approaches, also marginally increasing the element of privacy for the adjacent houses, whose back gardens abut the station out of shot on the left :-



December 2011 and the track alignment makes some lateral accommodations also :-



Droylsden Marina is an upcoming amenity which will also be served by this stop :-



The ‘ley line’ is enhanced by a new steely-grooved parallax at the Winter Solstice 2011, closing the year off in a moody expression of true nostalgia for an age yet to come :-



25.12.2011 – I love trams and would like my own tramway as an Xmas present – but would I want it so close to the garden gate?? One of the hazards of a linear development is lack of uniformity of the available width of alignment, and I would say that the ‘pinch’ becomes gradually more acute in general between here and Audenshaw :-



February 2012 and the first ohle poles appear in this area :-





One running wire was added in March 2012 :-



And a second one later that month :-



More shots in April 2012 of the compleat overhead near Cemetery Road :-







A good day’s work! . . .



Droylsden Villemomble Square – the temporary terminus

Between Cemetery Road, the Marina and the town centre at Villemomble Square stands the 1929 library, on a hump-back bridge over the old canal basin. Here in February 2009 it still had its art deco style railings, which unfortunately were to be lost the following year, to make way for a new footbridge :-



This was the plan for Market Street back in 1997 (later to be revised like Edge Lane, as an island station within a dual carriageway) :-



By 2004 many of the Advance Works had already been carried out –the Bank and the Conservative club behind it had gone (to be rebuilt nearby), and some of the school classrooms were removed and replaced by better ones built further back, in front of the Church in this render. All part of £200 million advance works, and what a waste, had Darling had his way and scrapped the whole thing at that point! :-



However, in July 2004 Alistair Darling did scrap all the proposed light rail schemes in Britain except Edinburgh, where he lives. It is to the great credit of the then PTE and Greater Manchester as a whole, that where all the other schemes fell by the wayside, by means of the ‘people power’ which has been so much the characteristic of this area down the centuries, our own scheme eventually prevailed :-



Tameside people in particular were demonstrably vocal in this campaign. On a hot Summer’s day in 2004, the battlebus (here standing on what 100 years ago was a tramway headshunt in Manor Road) prepares to set off from the Manchester boundary at Edge Lane. The little old black & white transport office hides symbolically in the shade, its own future uncertain . . .



On the Road :-



In Droylsden centre, the town clock overlooks the festivities. How can people say 7 years later that “No-one wanted the Metrolink” ? Not to worry, once the construction issues are over, everyone will revel in the benefits . . .



I may be right, I may be wrong, but I’d be perfectly willing to swear –
At the Metrolink demo’s in Twenty 04, an orchestra played in Villemomble Square!
:-



Waiting for the school bus – the classrooms at St Mary’s had already been relocated further back, and the kids are on the spot where the station was intended to be at that time. The Conservative club has also moved over the road, but the white Bank is still there at this time, on the corner of Market Street :-



Like Metrolink following a few years behind it, the bus then went on its way to victory, all the way to Ashton under Lyne :-



By 2007 the bank on the corner had also gone and Sleigh & son solicitors had a spanking new gable end :-



But those political ditherings meant that it was very quiet in Villemomble Square for the next 3 years, as the whole process had to be re-tendered from scratch, but in April 2010 a new fence was going up and it was all about to happen :-



Shortly before construction, a big change of plan took place for Droylsden terminus. This was the original proposal, with the later addition of a crossover just West of the tramstop :-



Under the newly-adopted scheme, however, instead of both tracks slewing over to the North with the station in front of the school yard, like Edge Lane the terminus is now an island platform in the centre of the carriageway, thereby easing the curve radii, and avoiding 2x conflicting traffic movements and a crossover in the middle of Market Street crossroads! In this October 2010 view looking back West, construction has started in the middle of the road, and the white kerb over on the right, instead of fronting a high tram platform will now accommodate the Eastbound bus stops :-



The same spot seen from the opposite end in the snows of December 2010, with the new site of the tramstop in the centre of the road, midway between Sleigh solicitors and The Cotton Tree public house with its attractive cupola on the right :-



By this time the library had also lost its railings and the new footbridge over the canal basin was in place. This was necessary as the existing road bridge, on the right in this shot, would have been too narrow for trams, right-turning traffic lanes and footpaths. Even on the old tramways a century ago, the tracks merged into a single-line section across this bridge:-



However, in the New Year the rails were starting out West from Market Street. January 2011 :-



February 2011 and the library, with its new footbridge, was ready to receive them :-



Up and over the hump in March 2011 :-





Behind the Library is Droylsden Marina. Development slowed during the recession, but like Metrolink, it now seems to be "back on track" :-



April 2011 and now the twin tracks traverse Market Street with no crossover! :-



Summer 2011 was a busy and controversial time for Villemomble Square, with the town clock in store, businesses blighted and Droylsden’s traffic in chaos! But by August 2011 the platform base had come into being :-



The actual crossover is now East of the platform, involving an over-run to reverse :-



September 2011. The linear space here is shorter than that at Edge Lane, and so the pedestrian ramp will run down alongside the platform, rather than as an extension to it :-



October 2011 the extended alignment takes shape :-



And the Square starts to take on its new mantle of tiled respectability! :-



November 2011 Hurrah! An old friend re-appears after a twelve month absence, smartly spruced up and with a recorded chime (but so quiet you have to be stood right underneath to hear it!) In the meantime, a game of curling is in full progress :-



Can they get the Square back into a civilised state in time for Xmas? :-







Looks like it! :-





December 2011 trams can traverse the terminal trough :-



And traffic can now cross over the crossover :-



But in order for the driver to change ends without leaving the vehicle and stepping down into the traffic when reversing at Droylsden, it was necessary to construct a protected parking place on a ‘trambaan’ or raised area in the middle of the road. It was also mentioned at one of the Metrolink roadshows that they intend to run doubles to Ashton on the occasion of Man City matches or other crowd-pullers. In the interim period these will also have to turn back at Droylsden, necessitating the provision of a spare ‘step-back’ driver waiting to board at Droylsden platform, ride into the headshunt and then drive it back! (A similar procedure to that employed all the time on the Bakerloo Line at Elephant.)

But the most recent controversy was a proposal in 2011 to extend the raised ‘trambaan’ all the way to Audenshaw, in order to restrict right turns and other traffic movements in the hope of improving general circulation. More people power put paid to that one, however :-



So in December 2011 the trambaan remained at the length of a double tram, i.e. only as far East as Williamson Lane :-



Before the year end, Droylsden-red poles had arrived, precursing the arrival of the final piece in the jigsaw :-





Curving Westward from Droylsden as the year draws to a close :-



And by the year end, the rails had also arrived at the Eastern boundary, teetering on the brink of Phase 3b and the 4 A’s to Ashton. Will the poles beyond here be blue? :-



It was February 2012 before span wires appeared on this section :-



Followed in March 2012 by a single running wire :-



Doubled in April 2012 :-



More shots of the final product (-ish!) :-









All it needs now are bananas, and then some more!! :-







May 2012, and even the tram shelter has rounded ends :-





Just get rid of the fencing, clutter, and let’s beat Rochdale to the 3a opening date!!



Continues in Part 8 http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...297&page=7#125

Last edited by Johnny de Rivative; May 28th, 2012 at 01:08 PM.
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Old February 21st, 2010, 02:23 PM   #118
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Quote:
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yeah, I think i would keep the colours for the metrolink lines and just show heavy rail lines in black but with station names. Would be pretty cool.
So I've had a quick go at a fantasy connections/zoning plan which includes Metrolink 3B + Rail. I had a play with splitting the different rail lines/services between First, Virgin, Northern etc. but there was just too much going on, and too many colour issues so I kept with rail lines as black only.


Last edited by XCH; February 21st, 2010 at 04:58 PM.
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Old February 21st, 2010, 04:26 PM   #119
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Excellent unbelievable work on the lines! I particularly like the arrows to further destinations.

Mmm, tweaks you could make.
Wigan Wallgate/Northwestern pedestrian interchange
Since its a fantasy map you could probably add the Ordsall curve under the assumption Northern Hub goes ahead. The report also proposed a new heavy rail station.

The ELR commuter proposal (2008) had either a heavy or Metrolink through these stations. "The high specification six-tram route from Rawtenstall could stop at Irwell Vale, Stubbins, Ramsbottom and Summerseat before going on to Bury and through to Victoria." It was proposed a 3 tram half hourly, 5 tram 20 minute or 6 tram 20 minute service. Theirs someone here with links to the ELR who could probably tell you how likely it is, I also have not heard what their feelings are on it whether they support/hesitant/object and would like to hear.

Another possible stop is at Buckley Wells between Bury and Radcliffe, at the ELR depot. GMPTE own the site and the intention seems to be for a park and ride/ELR interface at this location though theres local opposition from school parents and fears it could increase congestion. (2003-present?) http://www.bury.gov.uk/Environment/P...ge/Buckley.htm
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&sou...ajA1j7_idtdwgQ

Also im curious what criteria youve thought up for the zones boundarys?

p.s. you could probably do these Rail/ELR improvements on a seperate layer to preserve a 'pure' 3b

Last edited by WatcherZero; February 21st, 2010 at 04:35 PM.
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Old February 21st, 2010, 04:37 PM   #120
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Excellent unbelievable work on the lines! I particularly like the arrows to further destinations.

Mmm, tweaks you could make.
Wigan Wallgate/Northwestern pedestrian interchange
Since its a fantasy map you could probably add the Ordsall curve under the assumption Northern Hub goes ahead. The report also proposed a new heavy rail station.

The ELR commuter proposal (2008) had either a heavy or Metrolink through these stations. "The high specification six-tram route from Rawtenstall could stop at Irwell Vale, Stubbins, Ramsbottom and Summerseat before going on to Bury and through to Victoria." It was proposed a 3 tram half hourly, 5 tram 20 minute or 6 tram 20 minute service. Theirs someone here with links to the ELR who could probably tell you how likely it is, I also have not heard what their feelings are on it whether they support/hesitant/object and would like to hear.

Another possible stop is at Buckley Wells between Bury and Radcliffe, at the ELR depot. GMPTE own the site and the intention seems to be for a park and ride/ELR interface at this location though theres local opposition from school parents and fears it could increase congestion. (2003-present?) http://www.bury.gov.uk/Environment/P...ge/Buckley.htm
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&sou...ajA1j7_idtdwgQ

Also im curious what criteria youve thought up for the zones boundarys?
Chears WatcherZero. Thanks for the info - will have a dig around.

For the boundaries I started with the Metrolink ticket zones, and then the rest was based around rough distances. Zone 1 is the current City Zone. Zone 3 very roughly follows the M60 but extends further out in the south and east to make distances more consistent.
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