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Old February 4th, 2010, 11:05 PM   #101
Johnny de Rivative
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heatonparkincakes View Post
cheers che. It now makes more sense. It would be curious to work out how they envisaged extending the Met from stockport bus station. Quite a tricky thing I'd surmise.

.
Hi Heaton, yes I have been looking at that - I have always wondered where it was intended to meet up with the old Tiviot Dale line, now that the M60 is there, and a massive escarpment.

From the shape of the blue line an Che's map, it would seem to curve Northeastwards through a very heavily built-up area on different levels, apparently through the Peel centre some way and Portwood Roundaboout. Then North East again, on a similar curve by several schools to where it would pick up the old railway on the Southern edge of Brinnington. Interesting.
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Old February 4th, 2010, 11:12 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heatonparkincakes View Post
cheers che. It now makes more sense. It would be curious to work out how they envisaged extending the Met from stockport bus station. Quite a tricky thing I'd surmise.

Now as for a tram to Cadishead/Irlam/Partington. I am not being funny, but given the area, the lack of demand, the cost and that the local electorate spoke as one on Roger the dodger, Id say there is no chance. Not even worth talking about when there is far more worthy and more likely to successful places that need a tram.
I'm not sure. I remember reading that as part of the bus station redevelopment plans space was reserved for the tram to carry on to the east, although obviously once outside the confines of the interchange I have no idea.

I can't really see a tram for Partington being viable either. I was simply commenting on the hypothetical Glazebrook line (that a village wouldn't really be a good place to terminate a tram-train line) and suggesting Cadishead/Partington as an alternative site if the tram were to be extended towards Irlam. I think it's a problem of the SRA worrying only about how to get the local trains off the mainline rails through town and not thinking how it would actually work (see the Styal tram-train for another example) as part of the Metrolink system.
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Old February 5th, 2010, 12:25 AM   #103
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I am guessing from that rather crude map that the line goes from the bus station

Chestergate
Great Underbank
Bridge St
Warren St
Gt Portwood St (past the peel centre , once mooted as the terminus)
Then under the motorway at the portwood Island/junction
Along the old line of the Tiviot Dale rail line north of the M60
Then a bridge/tunnel under the motorway in an area between Brindale Road and Arden park

Then joins onto the existing freight line at the back of Bredbury.

Just a surmise. Now anyone wishes to estimate the huge cost of this!!!
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Old February 5th, 2010, 02:55 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heatonparkincakes View Post
I am guessing from that rather crude map that the line goes from the bus station

Chestergate
Great Underbank
Bridge St
Warren St
Gt Portwood St (past the peel centre , once mooted as the terminus)
Then under the motorway at the portwood Island/junction
Along the old line of the Tiviot Dale rail line north of the M60
Then a bridge/tunnel under the motorway in an area between Brindale Road and Arden park

Then joins onto the existing freight line at the back of Bredbury.

Just a surmise. Now anyone wishes to estimate the huge cost of this!!!

I'm pretty sure the section to Tiviot Dale would cost something approaching £100million. Oldham is a similar project (on street town centre track aproximately a mile long with one expensive junction tunnel) projected to cost £84 million and has a slightly longer route, but I'm presuming that Stockport being a bit more affluent and fidly will push up the costs a bit.

Going further east using the old rail alignment will be fairly cheap. Chortlon-Didsbury is projected at £85million for a route twice the length so lets say about £50 million to be on the safe side.

Then the only other major costs are the Motorway bridge/tunnel and the resignaling to allow trams to use that piece of NR track. Sadly I have no idea how much they'd cost. The former might not be an issue if the busway has already been constructed (as it would require a bridge/tunnel).
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Old February 5th, 2010, 11:04 AM   #105
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An idea I had for an extra platform at Old Trafford.

The original platform from yesteryear is still there, although it would need some work (lengthening etc..)

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Old February 5th, 2010, 01:52 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apologiesforthedelay View Post
An idea I had for an extra platform at Old Trafford.

The original platform from yesteryear is still there, although it would need some work (lengthening etc..)

Operationally this might be a bit of a headache. At the moment I believe the plan on matchdays/etc is to have trams queueing up on the running lines (made possible through LOS operation), effectively allowing a double car set to enter Old Trafford platform as the preceeding one draws out. Having a bay platform accessed from the running lines via a conflicting (and signalled) move against the flow of services heading into town creates problems as it severely eats into the capacity. Where bay platforms/loops do exist on tram networks, they are often in between the running lines. This allows terminating services to turn short without interfering with other services (See The Forest stop on NET.)

Best regards,
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Old February 5th, 2010, 08:36 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slipdigby View Post
Operationally this might be a bit of a headache. At the moment I believe the plan on matchdays/etc is to have trams queueing up on the running lines (made possible through LOS operation), effectively allowing a double car set to enter Old Trafford platform as the preceeding one draws out. Having a bay platform accessed from the running lines via a conflicting (and signalled) move against the flow of services heading into town creates problems as it severely eats into the capacity. Where bay platforms/loops do exist on tram networks, they are often in between the running lines. This allows terminating services to turn short without interfering with other services (See The Forest stop on NET.)

Best regards,
Slip
it would probably be expensive and might not be possible engineering wise, but they would have the cross over dip under the track.
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Old February 5th, 2010, 11:43 PM   #108
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Tram-Train thinking doesnt seem to have been dropped, the Lobbying strategy for the coming year has been prepared and so to summarise.

Primary Focus
Manchester Hub, continued lobbying after report is published

Rail Lobbying
Better quantity and quality of Northern and TPE rolling stock
The need for early benefits to Manchester of the coming Rolling stock plan
The benefit of HSR to the city region
The Authoritys requirements for heavy rail beyond Northern Rail Franchise period (e.g. Want Atherton Sunday services as a requirement not a PTE subsidised extra)

Light Rail
Continue pressing the case for the future role of Tram-Train on the Greater Manchester network.
Highlight the benefits the Metrolink expansion programme will deliver to the city region (so not pushing for new projects yet)

Bus
Demonstrate to key stakeholders of the necessity for the Authority to retain the full spectrum of powers provided by the Local Transport Act 2008 – from voluntary partnership to quality contracts.
Work with Government and the transport industry to progress an integrated ticketing system for Greater Manchester that can offer benefits similar to those offered by the London Oystercard system.
Promote the benefits of coordinating bus networks with other transport modes to reduce congestion, enhance residents’ access to opportunities and reduce the carbon dependency of transport.
Continue to lobby Government to ensure that the Traffic Commissioners' offices are sufficiently well resourced and supported to allow them to effectively discharge their bus-related duties.

http://www.gmita.gov.uk/download/293...trategy_201011
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Old February 6th, 2010, 02:08 PM   #109
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Think I have mentioned this before but I would like to see an extension of the Altincham line southwards to a Park and Ride station around Ashley, with a stop at Hale and maybe a Bowdon one further south. This should also link up with the westwards extension of the airport line to link up with the mid Cheshire line. The Park and Ride would then serve the airport and large parts of south Manchester. This could then allow through running of Northern or TPE services at the airport to Chester or Crewe (if a link between the Mid Cheshire and West Coast Mainline was provided) along with potential for some Cross Country services to serve the airport via Crewe and Birmingham.

The issue of running Metrolink alongside National Rail services could be resolved slightly by not stopping National Rail services at Navigation Road or Hale (anyone travelling on the mid Cheshire Line could change at the Parkway station or Altrincham for the tram).

Also potential to provide an eastern link from the airport chord / Styal line junction to the West Coast Mainline south of Stockport providng direct services between the airport and Stockport.

Although not particularly cheap improvements, they wouldn't break the bank and would bring pretty good benefits to public transport in the south of the city and enhance the Manchester Hub proposals.
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Old February 6th, 2010, 03:48 PM   #110
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They did have a north wales and crewe airport service, they withdrew it because it was attracting few passengers, but a lof of neighbouring regions do want their lines extended with Manchester Airport to serve as a terminus.
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Old February 6th, 2010, 10:05 PM   #111
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I've been having a look on Google Maps, its seems there may be some evidence as to the location of the tracks in the Ashton Moss area. The large roundabout shows 2 track sized squares (possible place markers?) in the central reservation and then there are marks (these may be just mowing marks) around the edge of the reservation. After the roundabout near Ikea, there are more squares, but only showing 1 track. This is little news to us, but interesting nonetheless.
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Old February 7th, 2010, 04:23 PM   #112
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Site layout of Ashton Moss stop:

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Old February 7th, 2010, 04:53 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by link_road_17/7 View Post
Site layout of Ashton Moss stop:

I guess I was wrong then. Sorry!

Also, are there links to any other plans in the area?
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Old February 7th, 2010, 05:08 PM   #114
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I don't think you are wrong - this is 'Ashton Moss' stop, rather than 'Ashton West', which will service Ashton Leisure Park, colloquially known as Ashton Moss!

After Ashton Moss the 'street tramway' route continues through the median strip/central reservation until the IKEA junction, where it transfers back over to a 'tramroad' alignment past Aldi, where trees and a cycle track/footpath currently exist, before terminating to the west of the Bus Station.

I think the other planning apps for the scheme are only available on paper, viewed by appointment at the Council Offices, as proposals have gone back since 1997, Tameside documents are back as far as 2005.
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Last edited by link_road_17/7; February 7th, 2010 at 05:13 PM. Reason: planning apps.
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Old February 7th, 2010, 06:08 PM   #115
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The layout for the Ashton line is included the Ashton Moss masterplan.

http://www.musedevelopments.com/media/yyyymi.jpg
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Old February 7th, 2010, 06:26 PM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by link_road_17/7 View Post
I don't think you are wrong - this is 'Ashton Moss' stop, rather than 'Ashton West', which will service Ashton Leisure Park, colloquially known as Ashton Moss!

After Ashton Moss the 'street tramway' route continues through the median strip/central reservation until the IKEA junction, where it transfers back over to a 'tramroad' alignment past Aldi, where trees and a cycle track/footpath currently exist, before terminating to the west of the Bus Station.

I think the other planning apps for the scheme are only available on paper, viewed by appointment at the Council Offices, as proposals have gone back since 1997, Tameside documents are back as far as 2005.
Ah, sorry. I guess I got them confused!
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Old February 9th, 2010, 12:11 AM   #117
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Johnny’s Big Bang

EAST MANCHESTER LINE PART 9

Cemetery Road

Darling, I am growing mellow - silver threads among the yellow . . .

Manchester Road Droylsden <> Buxton Lane <> John Street <> Sidebottom Street <> Clegg Street <> Cemetery Road <> Droylsden Marina <> Tesco’s <> Droylsden Library <> Hollinwood Branch Canal Bridge <>

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...297&page=6#117

xx images, updated to xxxx

Although Metrolink itself has of course been a boon to the elderly or anyone who may have restricted mobility, Cemetery Road as a tramstop name is somewhat unfortunate in this location as it is surrounded by old people’s homes nowadays! But originally, Manchester Road Droylsden was a typically long row of terraced houses, many of which would later be replaced by semi-detached properties. Here in the 1920s a Corporation double-deck tram disappears away towards the bulk of the Co-op building up ahead in downtown Droylsden. Can you spot it? :-


Tameside Image Archive http://www.tameside.gov.uk/history/archive.php3

Cemetery Road itself is not particularly adjacent to the modern tram station, but is home to Droylsden’s War Memorial, shown here when it was erected in 1921. The chapel of the cemetery itself stands in the background :-


Tameside Image Archive http://www.tameside.gov.uk/history/archive.php3

Further East along Manchester Road, in 1937 opened the stylish Droylsden Library, standing high on a bridge above the Hollinwood Branch of the Ashton Canal. Here it is when brand new and resplendent in the clean Art Deco lines and glories of its time. Unfortunately the two magnificent lanterns have not survived, possibly removed in those days for the imminent war effort? :-







The 3x parallel railings, in Droylsden’s ident colour of wine-red, survived until the coming of Metrolink, however. Unfortunately, they had to be removed in 2009 in order to widen the pavement with a new footbridge :-



Opposite the library in the 1960s stood Christy’s factory, later demolished to make way for Tesco’s at the lower level of the canal basin :-



GMPTE’s second consultation on the East Manchester Line in 1996 confirmed the following alignment for Metrolink in this area :-



As shown in these ‘before & after’ renders from 1997, the tramstop looking West will involve both tracks leaving Manchester Road on the Southern side, and will occupy this area previously cleared and supplanted with trees. The wide sweep needed to slew both tracks out of the carriageway will also involve the demolition of the row of terraced houses just beyond the trees :-



In the ‘after’ shot, both the trees and the row of houses have gone, but more trees will be planted at either end, as shown here beside the newly-exposed white gable end of the Jolly Carter pub (although it never actually became whitened!) :-



After all the political somersaults of Alistair darling and New Labour, and the ‘Get Back on Track’ campaigns of 2004, this was the scene on the ground a decade or so later in 2006, looking East and showing the doomed houses and trees opposite the bus :-



In April 2008, like a mirage in the centre of the roadway at this point, the singular monolith of the CIS building - fully four miles away near Victoria - looms far ahead, accentuating the parallax, and looking for all the world like another ley-line, except it was only built in the 1960’s! :-



Once Phase 3a (the ‘Little Bang’ to Droylsden, Rochdale Railway Station & St Werburgh’s Road only) had been ‘signed off’ in 2007, a further campaign was mounted to raise funding for Phase 3b via a Congestion Charge. But in this circumstance the answer to the question on this poster near Buxton Lane in July 2008 was a resounding ‘Pppppppp’ :-



On a more upbeat note, 2008 brought the launch of the new Droylsden Marina, with canalside developments and Metrolink top right :-



Here in July 2008, some of the new apartments can be seen beyond the canal basin, above the Library’s art deco balconies :-



More building in February 2009 :-



By March 2009 the houses had gone, and the trees between Clegg Street and Sidebottom Street had just been felled in advance of any works, so as not to disturb the nesting season :-



The canal bridge was not wide enough to accommodate Metrolink and the footpath, and so a new footbridge had to be built across the gap. It was lowered into place in June 2009 :-



By December 2009 the works compound had appeared beside the (brick) gable end of the Jolly Carter on the site of the former houses. ‘Sidebottom Street’ would have been an excellent name for this stop, full of Mancunian humour and more descriptive as the platforms will sit on it :-



Rails started to appear near the Jolly Carter in June 2010 :_





Progress in July 2010 :-





No ‘symmetry of parallax’ was to be found here in August 2010! :-








September 2010 saw the first incursion into the stop site itself, the CIS building still looking on from afar (a very far!) :-



December 2010 the snows come to freeze the action again :-





The rails from the West entered the station site in the New Year of 2011 :-







August 2011, and the way East from Edge Lane now looks permanent. The Eastbound track doesn’t stop short by the Westbound bus, but veers sharply to the left among the parked cars, to allow for right turns by the Jolly Carter :-



This month also brought a surprise, with the arrival of some bright red combined overhead & lamp posts :-



They look quite splendid in the house colour allocated to Droylsden by Tameside Metropolitan Council :-



Looking back West towards Edge Lane, the tramway streetscape starts to take shape, now only lacking wires :-





Perhaps further East the poles will change to blue, Tameside’s colour for Ashton? In the meantime, still in August 2011, orange is the colour of the newly planted trees at Cemetery Road, which arrived just in time to lose their leaves for Autumn :-



This September 2011 view shows that the track level at Cemetery Road has been lowered, in order to reduce the height differential of the platforms and their approaches, also marginally increasing the element of privacy for the adjacent houses, whose back gardens abut the station out of shot on the left :-



December 2011 and the track alignment makes some lateral accommodations also :-



Droylsden Marina is an upcoming amenity which will also be served by this stop :-



The ‘ley line’ is enhanced by a new steely-grooved parallax at the Winter Solstice 2011, closing the year off in a moody expression of true nostalgia for an age yet to come :-



25.12.2011 – I love trams and would like my own tramway as an Xmas present – but would I want it so close to the garden gate?? One of the hazards of a linear development is lack of uniformity of the available width of alignment, and I would say that the ‘pinch’ becomes gradually more acute in general between here and Audenshaw :-



February 2012 and the first ohle poles appear in this area :-





One running wire was added in March 2012 :-



And a second one later that month :-



More shots in April 2012 of the compleat overhead near Cemetery Road :-







A good day’s work! . . .






Continues in Part 10 http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...297&page=7#125

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Old February 21st, 2010, 02:23 PM   #118
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Quote:
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yeah, I think i would keep the colours for the metrolink lines and just show heavy rail lines in black but with station names. Would be pretty cool.
So I've had a quick go at a fantasy connections/zoning plan which includes Metrolink 3B + Rail. I had a play with splitting the different rail lines/services between First, Virgin, Northern etc. but there was just too much going on, and too many colour issues so I kept with rail lines as black only.


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Old February 21st, 2010, 04:26 PM   #119
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Excellent unbelievable work on the lines! I particularly like the arrows to further destinations.

Mmm, tweaks you could make.
Wigan Wallgate/Northwestern pedestrian interchange
Since its a fantasy map you could probably add the Ordsall curve under the assumption Northern Hub goes ahead. The report also proposed a new heavy rail station.

The ELR commuter proposal (2008) had either a heavy or Metrolink through these stations. "The high specification six-tram route from Rawtenstall could stop at Irwell Vale, Stubbins, Ramsbottom and Summerseat before going on to Bury and through to Victoria." It was proposed a 3 tram half hourly, 5 tram 20 minute or 6 tram 20 minute service. Theirs someone here with links to the ELR who could probably tell you how likely it is, I also have not heard what their feelings are on it whether they support/hesitant/object and would like to hear.

Another possible stop is at Buckley Wells between Bury and Radcliffe, at the ELR depot. GMPTE own the site and the intention seems to be for a park and ride/ELR interface at this location though theres local opposition from school parents and fears it could increase congestion. (2003-present?) http://www.bury.gov.uk/Environment/P...ge/Buckley.htm
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&sou...ajA1j7_idtdwgQ

Also im curious what criteria youve thought up for the zones boundarys?

p.s. you could probably do these Rail/ELR improvements on a seperate layer to preserve a 'pure' 3b

Last edited by WatcherZero; February 21st, 2010 at 04:35 PM.
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Old February 21st, 2010, 04:37 PM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WatcherZero View Post
Excellent unbelievable work on the lines! I particularly like the arrows to further destinations.

Mmm, tweaks you could make.
Wigan Wallgate/Northwestern pedestrian interchange
Since its a fantasy map you could probably add the Ordsall curve under the assumption Northern Hub goes ahead. The report also proposed a new heavy rail station.

The ELR commuter proposal (2008) had either a heavy or Metrolink through these stations. "The high specification six-tram route from Rawtenstall could stop at Irwell Vale, Stubbins, Ramsbottom and Summerseat before going on to Bury and through to Victoria." It was proposed a 3 tram half hourly, 5 tram 20 minute or 6 tram 20 minute service. Theirs someone here with links to the ELR who could probably tell you how likely it is, I also have not heard what their feelings are on it whether they support/hesitant/object and would like to hear.

Another possible stop is at Buckley Wells between Bury and Radcliffe, at the ELR depot. GMPTE own the site and the intention seems to be for a park and ride/ELR interface at this location though theres local opposition from school parents and fears it could increase congestion. (2003-present?) http://www.bury.gov.uk/Environment/P...ge/Buckley.htm
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&sou...ajA1j7_idtdwgQ

Also im curious what criteria youve thought up for the zones boundarys?
Chears WatcherZero. Thanks for the info - will have a dig around.

For the boundaries I started with the Metrolink ticket zones, and then the rest was based around rough distances. Zone 1 is the current City Zone. Zone 3 very roughly follows the M60 but extends further out in the south and east to make distances more consistent.
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